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| Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone (1458747) | |
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| (1459237) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 20 18:52:58 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 18:47:02 2017. Those may have been linked. I read about this bypass quite a few years ago as a way to get passenger trains off a crowded and circuitous freight track. |
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| (1459238) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 20 18:54:28 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 12:09:18 2017. Japan's ATC has a pretty good track record. |
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| (1459239) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 20 18:56:53 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 20 07:01:10 2017. True, but unlike a highway, railroad speed limit signs tend to be at the beginning of the restricted zone only. Missing a 55 AND a 30 would be tough.Hell, the number of people who miss the "BEGIN 65MPH" sign on the Northway is really annoying during rush hour. If you were going 65 before that sign, you should be going 75 after... |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1459259) | |
Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Dec 20 21:11:39 2017, in response to Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Dec 20 17:35:19 2017. Punishment would be losing your pension if you were still working and eligible for it. |
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| (1459294) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 21 07:32:34 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 20 18:52:58 2017. And also because they wanted to move the station. |
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| (1459299) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 21 09:21:05 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 21 07:32:34 2017. But my impression is that they wanted to move the station in order to be able to use this link. |
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| (1459311) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 21 10:17:16 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 21 09:21:05 2017. No. The otter way around. They wanted a new station closer to the dome.ROAR |
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| (1459326) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 21 12:57:10 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Dec 21 10:17:16 2017. The reroute project started in 2010.The new station started in 2016. |
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| (1459329) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Thu Dec 21 13:08:39 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 20 17:39:16 2017. The delays with PTC are absolutely outrageous and the railroads have blood on their hands. First Spuyten Duyvil, then Philadelphia, and now Nisqually. The railroads should have had PTC 20 years ago. Amtrak has been running a PTC system on the Shore Line since 1999, and they should have installed it from New Rochelle to Washington, DC at the same time, since they own those tracks, but of course other lines are out of their control.The federal government should have been more strict with the deadline, and after these crashes. They should have immediately required that all passenger trains running without PTC have an engineer AND a fireman on them, and that they call all signals out verbally like the Japanese do. This would increase safety while the railroads are dicking around not getting PTC installed, and it would light a fire under their butts to get it installed. Heck, trains should NEVER have been allowed to operate without a fireman in the first place until PTC was installed. If they had forced firemen on all trains since the 1960's or 1970's when they were discontinued, the railroads would have installed PTC in the 1990's at the latest, possibly earlier if it was technically viable then! |
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| (1459332) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Robert From Queens on Thu Dec 21 14:00:31 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by ElectricTraction on Thu Dec 21 13:08:39 2017. The news reports keep saying the train brakes weren't applied by the crew, but were applied automatically. What does this mean? Did the engineer and conductor both ignore the alerter for 60 seconds, and then it timed out? Were the emergency brakes activated because the train broke apart? Need some clarification here.Rob |
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| (1459340) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Bzuck on Thu Dec 21 16:14:09 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Robert From Queens on Thu Dec 21 14:00:31 2017. Speculation is the brakes were applied when the train broke apart breaking an air line. With no PTC the alerter would not have been activated for over speed. |
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| (1459341) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 16:35:55 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by ElectricTraction on Thu Dec 21 13:08:39 2017. First the Philly crash was AMTRAK's fault because the PRR installed overspeed enforcement was turned OFF.Second, FWIW, after the 1996 Silver Spring (Georgetown Jct.) head-on the "delayed in block rule" came in w/ signs reminding engineers os same. CSX reiterated the requirement to radio call signals. (In this case the radio was being flaky and there are no tapes from Jacksonville) The incident occurred becausea train which should have encountered a "yellow" was run as if it encountered a"green". The C/R was in the cab w/ the engineer in an aluminumskinned push-pull coach. There was no intermediate block signal between the revenue stop at Kensington and G J. At the time, I said that any route w/ passenger operations should have cab signals to at least have the speed/occupancy indications are right there in the cab. FRA instead chose to require stronger, heavier structure for cab cars. That is why the two Talgo Mater and Pater were built, and the de-motored F40 cabbages used. As we saw, having a crunch proof engine leading had no effect on speed enforcement. I will add that decades ago when Nevada had areasof "drive as fast as youplease" there were "speed zone ahead" signs preceeding "speed limit xx" segments. Cab signals couldhave been ignored just as easily as wayside signals were at Chatsworth--so not a complete solution. |
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| (1459346) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 21 17:40:57 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 20 18:56:53 2017. When the speed limit drops from 65 to 55 through a congested area, like Scranton on I380 and I-81, nobody does it until they have to. It is "not cool". |
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| (1459348) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Dec 21 18:11:02 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 21 17:40:57 2017. A Penna. State patrolman came to neighbor's party in street clothes. I remember him saying the police won't bother you unless you are 10 mph over the limit.That's pretty neat, but I'm not going to try it. |
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| (1459350) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Dec 21 18:15:18 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Dec 21 18:11:02 2017. That's actually fairly accurate. Most traffic judges |
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| (1459351) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Dec 21 18:15:52 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Dec 21 18:11:02 2017. That's actually fairly accurate. Most traffic judges give you and the cop a 5 mph margin of error each. |
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| (1459352) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 18:16:19 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 21 17:40:57 2017. so think about that attitude and then think about RR speed limits... |
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| (1459353) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 18:18:24 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Dec 21 18:15:52 2017. and a recently retired RR engineer commented that locomotive speedometers are not always very accurate. |
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| (1459355) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Dec 21 18:35:11 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 18:18:24 2017. actually they are , any speedometer off by 5 mph of more at 60 mph puts locomotive in shop. |
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| (1459356) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Dec 21 18:46:31 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 21 17:40:57 2017. As an out of stater I apply the "I'm more likely to get a ticket than these Pennsylvanians" rule and when it drops from 65 to 55, I will duly move to the right lane and slow to 64 before passing the sign. |
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| (1459360) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 19:12:18 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Dec 21 18:35:11 2017. yes, thatwas what he said. So, "accurate" is an adjective, the "tolerance is perhaps ok, perhaps toogenerous. |
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| (1459362) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Robert From Queens on Thu Dec 21 19:20:59 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Robert From Queens on Thu Dec 21 14:00:31 2017. Thanks for the clarification. The news makes it sound as if the crew was in some kind of trance, and ignored any warnings. |
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| (1459364) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 21 19:30:48 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Dec 21 18:11:02 2017. A lawyer I knew once told me that radar detectors are only accurate to within 7.5 MPH so its usually rounded off the 10 MPH over the limit. |
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| (1459365) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Dec 21 19:37:03 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by ElectricTraction on Thu Dec 21 13:08:39 2017. You write the checks to pay for all that, sure. |
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| (1459368) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 20:23:14 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 21 19:30:48 2017. interesting data, thank you. |
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| (1459370) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Dec 21 20:31:51 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Bzuck on Thu Dec 21 16:14:09 2017. Where does the "dead man" feature factor in here, if at all? Does "brakes were applied" mean actively or passively. The black box should answer brake application speculation questions. |
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| (1459371) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Dec 21 20:33:52 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Dec 21 20:31:51 2017. there has not been dead man feature on locomotives in years, just alertor , which has no impact on speed or overspeed. |
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| (1459379) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Fri Dec 22 02:48:01 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Dec 21 20:33:52 2017. Why'd they get rid of it? |
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| (1459381) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Dec 22 06:43:19 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by jimmymc25 on Fri Dec 22 02:48:01 2017. cause it got replaced by alertor . |
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| (1459385) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:48:30 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 18:16:19 2017. RR speed limits are enforced by an inspector and a radar gun.ZERO Tolerance. ROAR |
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| (1459386) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:50:44 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu Dec 21 18:46:31 2017. As a North Dakotan, I know where the officers congregate, and it is about one mile beyond the speed drop from 75 to 60. Lots of people do not drop their speed quickly enough or flat out do not see the signs (there are four of them). Easy pickings. |
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| (1459387) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:59:28 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by jimmymc25 on Fri Dec 22 02:48:01 2017. The deadman feature did not work all that well. I have seen LIRR engineers us a pencil to lock the controller down.It is easy to fall asleep and still keep your hand firmly on the control. It detects a DEAD man not a drowsy man. I sleep with my teddy bear. I tuck him under my arm and there he stays all night long no matter how much a toss and turn. If I in my sleep can keep hold of my teddy bear all night long while I am asleep, how hard is it to hold down the dead mans feature when you are drowsey. BNSF had a T-Bone collision where one train ran into the side of another, as his track merged with another. He ran several restricting and stop signals. His conductor was asleep and apparently he was too, although he kept resetting the alerter as he went along. A REAL ALERTER should display a three digit number and the engineer should have to enter that number to appease the alerter. This requires a higher brain function and will assure greater alertivity. LION's solution would be to automate the train and do away with the crew entirely. If I can do it on my HO railroad, how hard would it be for a realroad to do it given GPS and every thing else including PTC. ROAR |
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| (1459388) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 22 08:14:46 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:59:28 2017. If I can do it on my HO railroad, how hard would it be for a realroad to do it given GPS and every thing else including PTC.Far cheaper than to make self-driving cars, of course. The trouble is, the cost of self-driving trains can only be spread over tens of thousands of trains while the cost of self-driving cars can be spread over hundreds of millions of cars. |
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| (1459389) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 22 08:15:45 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:50:44 2017. ND has a speed limit of 60 on an Interstate? Wow. |
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| (1459396) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 10:32:24 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 22 08:15:45 2017. ND speed limit is 75 mpg... *0 will pass muster.It drops to 60 in Bismarck and Fargo as per fed requirements. ROAR |
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| (1459405) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Fri Dec 22 11:49:46 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:59:28 2017. Most passenger trains could be automated, although PTC is sort of the best of both worlds, in that going is done by a human, and if the human doesn't stop, then stopping is automated. A line like the New Haven line GCT-NHV would be very easy to automate, and would probably speed it up a bit, as the computer could calculate the last possible second to slam on the brakes coming into a station, versus a human that has to leave some margin. Freight trains out west still need human crews, but a lot of the drudgery of cruising along could be automated out, much like with planes and autopilot. |
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| (1459407) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Fri Dec 22 11:56:46 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 21 16:35:55 2017. I thought there was no cab signal drop there at all?Yet another PTC preventable crash (was PTC technically viable in 1996? That's three years before Amtrak installed it on the Shore Line). Right, designing for a crash is a lousy way to do it, you should design to avoid the crash in the first place, i.e. PTC. In terms of cab signaling, I was referring to the use of cab signal drops, which I believe have a crude method of speed enforcement based on a series of signal indications? |
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| (1459408) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Fri Dec 22 11:56:48 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Steamdriven on Thu Dec 21 19:37:03 2017. Or maybe the federal government could provide proper funding to railroads, instead of just subsidizing airlines and highways? |
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| (1459409) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Fri Dec 22 11:58:40 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by ElectricTraction on Fri Dec 22 11:56:46 2017. Also, although under a different regulatory structure, and with different control systems, this crash is eerily similar to the Santiago de Compostela crash- Talgo train going at high speed, coming to a curve, not slowing down, off it goes. |
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| (1459411) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 22 12:25:58 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Dec 21 18:11:02 2017. I've found that to be true. On I-95 in CT, in the 65 mph zone most people in the left lane are going 80 and no one is ever stopped for that. |
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| (1459417) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Dec 22 13:06:35 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Dec 21 18:15:52 2017. Perhaps, though going to court isn't exactly something I'd like to be doing too regularly. There are times when being pulled over is itself punishment enough, depending on how long you are held, let alone having to meet a court date. |
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| (1459418) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Dec 22 13:13:07 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 22 12:25:58 2017. Then there's that 40 mph zone with those slight curves I think in the New Haven area but often there's no reason to slow down at all except for the speed limit. |
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| (1459420) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Dec 22 13:28:46 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 22 12:25:58 2017. On I-95 in CT, in the 65 mph zone most people in the left lane are going 80 and no one is ever stopped for that.On the few trips I've used I-95 in CT. I was going 80, my car got its best gas mileage at that speed, contrary to the "drive at 55" for best mileage, they used to say. |
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| (1459423) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 22 13:53:02 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Dec 21 18:15:52 2017. Only for the officer’s estimate. The radar gun is more accurate. |
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| (1459424) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 22 13:53:45 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 21 19:30:48 2017. That sounds like obsolete information. |
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| (1459432) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 22 15:49:19 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 22 13:53:45 2017. Could be. It was a long time ago. |
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| (1459439) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 22 16:23:48 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 22 07:59:28 2017. A real "alerter" would be another person in the cab. But then the old problem of cost of labor issues would rear its ugly head. |
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| (1459440) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Dec 22 16:26:35 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 22 16:23:48 2017. There was another person in the cab. That didn't prevent this accident. |
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| (1459441) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 22 16:36:03 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Dec 22 13:06:35 2017. My last speeding ticket was radar catching me doing 53 in a 45. It was on 9-D upstate & courtesy of a Dutchess Co. Sheriff. So I rolled the dice & fought it. The Sheriff didn't show & the ticket was tossed. "Failure to prosecute" preceded the pounding gavel.Point here, always fight it. If the cop dont show, no fine, points or insurance surcharge. I guess that means I'm a menace to society still at large!:) |
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| (1459443) | |
Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Fri Dec 22 17:48:33 2017, in response to Re: Train was going 80MPH in 30MPH zone, posted by ElectricTraction on Fri Dec 22 11:56:48 2017. How about you pay the actual cost of running the train when you buy the ticket. The Feds - that's all of your friends, neighbors and everyone else with a job - perhaps can be asked to kick in the capital to buy the right of way and pay for the now enormous cost putting a functioning RR on it, once. The recurring cost of paying to drive you around (incl via a train) should should be paid by each person being so transported.When people drive, they pay for - The rolling stock - The insurance on the rolling stock - The fuel for the rolling stock - Storage space (parking at home) for said wheeled thing - Every repair and maintenance item - The operator and crew, usually one person does both jobs - Station attendants (same person as the operator and crew) - On roads designated as Federal or State highways, they pay for the roadside workers, roadbed maintenance and repaving via gas taxes. Those gas taxes also pay for a bit of mass transit, whether or not they use it. What they don't pay for is the original construction of highways, road signs and ... well, that's about all there is on an Interstate. No signal system, no electric substations, no catenery, no switches. All of those are integrated into the diversified modular transport units known as motor vehicles. Now, I like the idea of having someone chauffeur me in a 100,000 pound vehicle, and having 'them' deal with parking, maintenance, fuel and threading around traffic. I'd rather have a reclining seat in a smoothly operating conveyance which magically stores itself when I get out than drive myself. But I don't believe I have the right to force you to pay for all of it. If I want extra service (driver, valet parking, bundled maintenance) then I expect to pay for it myself. Things that last 100 years, such as right-of-way, or even 20 years, such as roads and tracks, can reasonable be paid for by Uncle Deficit, if those facilities will actually be used enough to justify their existence. Thing is, even when you pay for the extra service (train, train driver, staff, valet, etc) you may not get anything worth the $$. Half the railcars in the USA (the few I've been on at least) make a constant shivering motion rather than rolling smoothly, the seats don't recline and I run the risk of being stuck between 2 other grungy strangers (commuter rail) or near someone screaming kid (anywhere). Find a car with a smooth highway ride, drive with one other person who you get along with and it becomes less headache than the train. Passenger rail could be a fine experience, if it was 1935 again. It ain't and with few exceptions it won't be. So asking the whole country to pay for our predilection for a quaint mode of transport isn't only unfair, it's often for a product not worth buying. |
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