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The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 18 17:44:33 2017 Here is another article that I have written. This one is about the crisis at Penn Station and what needs to be done. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 18:00:05 2017, in response to The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 18 17:44:33 2017. I agree with you about Moynihan.I do NOT agree about thru-running. It appears to work only on paper. The last thing the LIRR needs is to have is operations tied to NJT, a schloky operation. What happens to LIRR service when a bridge opens on the NJCL or Amtrak got in their way ? LIRR operations are better, but very delicate and cannot handle schedule constraints from another carrier. They also change their schedules every 2 months for engineering work somewhere on the Island, often completely re-patterning off-peak service on a branch. Service planning would be impossible. During the peak, running all these new reverse-peak trains off the opposite railroad would be very expensive and and there is no commercial need for it. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 18 18:32:53 2017, in response to The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 18 17:44:33 2017. Pimping for clicks?Rebuilding NYP is not the answer. A whole new station is needed somewhere downtown, to at least replace the three missing waterfront terminals that closed during the 50s and 60s. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 18:52:19 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 18 18:32:53 2017. Lower Manhattan has nowhere near the employment it did 50 years ago. Even HOB - WTC PATH is run way below capacity - not hard to get a seat at rush hour. I don't know if we need more trunk routes there.I'd rather disperse NYPS overcrowding with the #7 to NJ |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 18 18:53:20 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 18:52:19 2017. 50 years ago is still 50 years into the future for Olog-hai. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 19:01:32 2017, in response to The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 18 17:44:33 2017. Here's an interesting statistic, courtesy of the annual Hub Bound Report.Number of trains entering Penn Sta between 8 and 9 am From NJ: 14 (1975); 25 (2015) From LI: 35 (1975); 37 (2015) Don't believe all the hype you hear regarding about Penn Sta being overloaded. N.B. the LIRR total will diminish, if or when ESA is completed (2023). |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 19:05:53 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 19:01:32 2017. That will be some backfilling of LIRR service with NH and Hudson Line service from each end. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 19:44:36 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 19:05:53 2017. That will be some backfilling of LIRR service with NH and Hudson Line service from each end.That's another way of spending lots of money to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 20:04:23 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 19:44:36 2017. Or get some people off express buses from the East Bronx and lower Manhattan people off the Lex at GCT onto either of 2 west side subways, which are less crowded. You can (I have) get a seat on the #1 at 34th. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 21:27:05 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 20:04:23 2017. The reason the Lex is so crowded is that they don't operate a sufficient number of trains. The existing signal system can (and has) operated more expresses and many more locals.They also used to operate many more West Side locals. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by lirr42 on Thu May 18 23:03:49 2017, in response to The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 18 17:44:33 2017. The solution to the problem at NY-Penn Station should have nothing to do with NY-Penn Station...59% of LI Commuters work closer to Atlantic Terminal or Hunterspoint Avenue, yet those two terminals only get a combined 27% of the rush hour service the LIRR provides... This imbalance shifts riders unescescarily to NYK, making crowding worse there...Coming from New Jersey the balance is a little differnet...73% of people work closest to NY-Penn Station while 27% work closer to Newark/Hoboken...though that could probably be improved by speeding up the trip into Hoboken and improving PATH/ferry service at Hoboken. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 00:22:36 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 18:52:19 2017. Lower Manhattan has nowhere near the employment it did 50 years agoThink that might have had aught to do with cutting the area's transit options from NJ off? Even HOB - WTC PATH is run way below capacity If true, that is a recent phenomenon. A main station further downtown would be very well used especially due to the subway connections, and revitalize the area. Shoving all the eggs into one basket will not work. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri May 19 00:29:54 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 00:22:36 2017. Think that might have had aught to do with cutting the area's transit options from NJ off?No. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Q4 on Fri May 19 11:56:21 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Thu May 18 19:05:53 2017. Metro North will only be coming in from the New Haven Line via Amtrak's Hellgate line from Queens when some LIRR service moves over to Grand Central once/if ESA opens. There are no current plans for the Hudson Line to come in from the West Side. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri May 19 12:15:08 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Q4 on Fri May 19 11:56:21 2017. There is still an MTA planning study for west side access. It may be stalled, but not terminated. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri May 19 13:10:50 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Q4 on Fri May 19 11:56:21 2017. Things would be easier if ESA weren't taking an eternity. The need for it is getting more and more urgent. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by randyo on Fri May 19 13:39:09 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 21:27:05 2017. More trains were operated on all the heavy lines of the NYCTS back when M/M were allowed to key by red automatic signals to close in on a train ahead. With M/M now being required to either wait for the signals to clear or request permission by radio from the RCC (which would be impractical considering to number of trains that would be clogging the air waves) capacity had been severely diminished. As far as West Side locals, back when the headway S/O 137 St was 2 min on the #1, trains were only 8 cars. with 10 car trains being operated, fewer trains can be operated while still maintaining loading guidelines. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by randyo on Fri May 19 13:41:03 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Q4 on Fri May 19 11:56:21 2017. Actually, back when Peter Stangl was still MTA chairman, he was asked about providing M/N service via the west side once the connection to Penn Station was completed. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 19 14:01:21 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by lirr42 on Thu May 18 23:03:49 2017. I would extend the Atlantic Branch into Lower Manhattan with a stop at Fulton Street before going under the Hudson with a stop at Pavonia, before running via the Bergen Arches and to the Main, Bergen, and Pascack Valley Lines. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 14:16:49 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by randyo on Fri May 19 13:41:03 2017. Who asked him about it? |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 14:19:45 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri May 19 13:10:50 2017. Alleged need.The current cost for ESA has ballooned to close to three times the original estimate. That should have been enough dough to keep the TBMs for the station area going all the way into Brooklyn onto the Atlantic Avenue branch. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 14:20:10 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Q4 on Fri May 19 11:56:21 2017. No it won't. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 19 15:18:05 2017, in response to The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 18 17:44:33 2017. Shared that onto my Facebook page!Excellent thoughts as I think it's something that seriously needs to be examined. Maybe working on a hybrid of the LIRR and NJT where you could for example have Trenton line trains run on the Port Jefferson branch of the LIRR (which would especially come in handy on Belmont Stakes Day for example). |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 15:22:07 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 19 15:18:05 2017. Never happen. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 19 15:36:48 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 15:22:07 2017. That was an example. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 19 17:10:58 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 19 15:18:05 2017. When I have a chance, I will post my regional rail plan. Through-running is possible and it would be the heart of the system. If it could work all over the world, why would it not work in New York? |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:25:58 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 18 21:27:05 2017. I know that, but I'd still rather balance the load and people have a choice of 2 west side subways from NYPS. The "1" and the "C" is a lot easier to get onto than the #6. The "C" can also be made 10 cars.Grand Central is a destination for a lot of subway passengers. Penn Station - not as much, so conflicting pedestrian flows of people getting on and getting off the subway are better at Penn Station. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:45:06 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri May 19 13:10:50 2017. Shoulda' put up escalators at Hunterpoint Avenue, run a pedestrian bridge directly into the side of the subway mezzanine to cut down on the gym workout on 6 flights of stairs up and down, and then spend the big bucks retrofitting the #7 for 12 car trains, and kill 2 birds with one stone, the other forgetting about that fucking CBTC. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:58:21 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 19 17:10:58 2017. What I said: it works on paper, not in reality- NJT is a shitty outfit where a 15 minute "delay" is a rounding error. - LIRR operations are too delicate to impact with more constraints. - Delays on one system immediately get mirrored onto the other. - Most Penn Station platforms are too narrow to handle huge exchanges of many passengers quickly. Amtrak's 8 car Regional trains turn over 75% of their passengers, but their trains are not high capacity by commuter standards. - Power systems are incompatible, LIRR is not about to buy dual voltage M-8's, have a unique MU fleet that can't run to Grand Central, nor deal with MU cars with heavy 25 cycle transformers. - What are yo going to do with all the ALP46's and M-7's ? - It is easier to change trains than thru run the train for probable2% of the people running through to Long Island fro New Jersey and vice versa. - SEPTA does it, but can't make 90% OTP, has uniform equipment for use on both sides of the system, and exchanges passengers across 3 stations in Philly. Even so, 97% of their passengers don't ride through, and the 3% that do are mostly headed to/from the Pennsy side: Airport, Trenton, and University City. - Europe and the UK have plenty of traditional stub end terminal systems. Don't kid yourself that everything is RER, Thameslink, and Crossrail. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 19 18:02:21 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:45:06 2017. amazing how simple solutions would have produced better results earlier and at lower costs. But, where are the gold shovels, the spin and grin photo ops, the ribbons to cut with one time use scissors? |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri May 19 18:17:52 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:45:06 2017. Nice idea IF the escalators wouldn't be constantly broken and wouldn't take an eternity to fix when broken. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri May 19 18:19:33 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:58:21 2017. NJT is a shitty outfit where a 15 minute "delay" is a rounding error.LIRR operations are too delicate to impact with more constrain As if the LIRR is any better? |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri May 19 18:21:10 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:45:06 2017. They have gone too far at this point to abandon CBTC.Unfortunately CBTC is the future signaling system at NYCT. God help us! |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 19:10:21 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri May 19 18:21:10 2017. Cant Believe This Crap |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 19:12:29 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri May 19 18:19:33 2017. Oh yes, much, having lived on both sides of the Hudson.NJT is 1970's and 1980's LIRR. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri May 19 19:27:39 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 19:10:21 2017. YAWN. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 19 22:39:25 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 14:16:49 2017. Not the pols from Nassau and Suffolk County. :-) |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 19 22:41:09 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 14:20:10 2017. At the very least it will be up in the air. It depends on who has more political muscle. And of course, MN will, at best, only break even, approximately. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 19 22:53:01 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 14:19:45 2017. Everyone forgets about the terrible ground in Queens. Too soft, tunnel kept caving in. Should have learned from the 63st connector woes... |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 19 22:54:52 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri May 19 18:02:21 2017. The photo ops with scissors would have worked for 22 station platform extensions as well... |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 23:14:23 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 19 22:53:01 2017. That's the part they didn't have to build on this project, funny enough. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 19 23:48:15 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Fri May 19 23:14:23 2017. I heard the biggest problem was the build out between 21st Queensbridge and Sunnyside. Manhattan went without any major hitch so far. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 19 23:53:14 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by lirr42 on Thu May 18 23:03:49 2017. The Hoboken ferry is quite good; its just expensive. A direct monthly to NYP is cheaper. Make the ferry cheaper somehow and this will change. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 20 00:36:53 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 19 23:48:15 2017. Shouldn't have incurred the extra six billion.I still want to see this built south of GCT into Brooklyn, myself. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat May 20 02:27:42 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 20 00:36:53 2017. Yup.That Should have been part of the plan like it was ORIGINALLY OUTLINED. There is really nothing keeping them from continuing two tunnels further south fairly deep to avoid structures...into Brooklyn to the Terminal. It would have made the most sense. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sun May 21 17:10:45 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri May 19 17:58:21 2017. Yeah, the idea of through-running LIRR just makes no sense. Penn Station clearly needs to be expanded/updated/upgraded/fixed, but that's a smaller part of the overall system. LIRR needs to be upgraded and beefed up throughout the system, but kept a mostly isolated system, as it has enough complexity on its own.The through-running should be NJT-New Haven or NJT-Danbury, since the equipment is compatible, and instead of the ridiculous third rail extension crap for the M-8's, MN could use the equipment that already runs and already works on that route with loco-hauled overhead power. Additional stations in The Bronx is a good idea, but aren't needed to start service. Whether NJT has or could order enough equipment to handle this service to lease to CDOT/MN, or whether CDOT/MN would have to order more that is compatible, or how it would be owned/pooled/maintained, I'm not sure, but there are a lot of options considering that the NJT equipment is already qualified to NHV. The idea of Penn Station service from the New Haven direction is great, since you don't need a ton of trains to make it work- people can take one of a few trains a day, and if they need to change plans, they can always re-route via NYCT/GCT to get back if needed. I'd imagine a few trains could be started before ESA is done, just by tacking them onto the end of existing NJT runs with run-through equipment. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun May 21 17:32:55 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by ElectricTraction on Sun May 21 17:10:45 2017. There are no NJT trains running in the East River tunnels in the LIRR-peak direction. IOW, nothing NJT comes in the AM rush from SSY, and nothing goes to SSY in the PM rush. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 21 18:01:46 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 19 22:39:25 2017. I can’t recall now but at an MTA managers meeting the subject was brought up. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sun May 21 20:48:16 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun May 21 17:32:55 2017. The East River tunnels aren't the choke point though, it's the North River Tunnels. |
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Re: The Crisis at Penn Station |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon May 22 12:40:23 2017, in response to Re: The Crisis at Penn Station, posted by lirr42 on Thu May 18 23:03:49 2017. 59% of LI Commuters work closer to Atlantic Terminal or Hunterspoint AvenueIf that's true, why is the LIRR trying to cram as many trains as possible into Penn and ESA? The opposite should be happening. |
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