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| East 180th Street (4/10/17) (1433781) | |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 20 16:14:08 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. Nice- thanks. Too bad the NYWB was never put to passenger use again. The 1970s plan for extending the SAS to the Bronx called for using the NYWB's ROW and going to Dyre Ave. I guess that plan, if it had been realized, would've put that structure back to use and prevented its demolition... |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 20 17:03:32 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 20 16:14:08 2017. Exactly what I was thinking. The upgrade from the lower portion of the NYW&B ROW into E180 looks like it would have been a nice ride. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Apr 20 17:31:04 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. These are some really nice photos.Thanks, Mike |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 20 17:49:08 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 20 16:14:08 2017. IAWTP |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by chud1 on Thu Apr 20 18:22:15 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. 5 drooling stars ouut of 5 drooling stars for these pictures.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Apr 20 19:46:10 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. Nice photos of a nice station rehab.The last time I was at E.180th St, the underpass was very dingy and dirty. I'm also surprised at the apartment building going up on the old NYW&B ROW. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Apr 20 23:05:47 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Apr 20 19:46:10 2017. It's a real gem now. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Apr 21 07:17:55 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by randyo on Thu Apr 20 17:03:32 2017. It was a nice looking viaduct- I only saw it once or twice- in the mid-to-late 90s, when I lived in Westchester. I've been up there once or twice since then, but after the demolition.I remember a brief segment on the TV news from 2003, when the demo was in progress... |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Fri Apr 21 08:49:37 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. What's in the upper stories of the E 180 station building? Does mta own the whole building?Nice shots btw. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Q4 on Fri Apr 21 13:08:53 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Fulton Frank on Fri Apr 21 08:49:37 2017. Nice shots.Transit owns the building. There is a NYPD Transit Bureau District Office (at least there was a few years ago) and the upper floors might be used for that or for NYCT offices. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Apr 21 15:13:21 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. Very nice photos indeed! The track up top that ends at a bumper - is that the old Westchester ROW? |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 21 15:18:29 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Dave on Fri Apr 21 15:13:21 2017. Yes. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Apr 21 15:29:28 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 21 15:18:29 2017. Thx. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Apr 21 19:51:35 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Q4 on Fri Apr 21 13:08:53 2017. NYPD has its own building directly across the street (Morris Park Ave.) from the station house, so I don't think they occupy offices in the station building's upper floors any more. I'm sure NYCT has found some other use for the space. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Apr 24 23:41:34 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 20 16:14:08 2017. I had a fantasy map in which some SAS (T) trains would run to East 180th, and the rest on the Amtrak ROW to Co-Op. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Apr 25 14:10:57 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by randyo on Thu Apr 20 17:03:32 2017. Randy, was it a case of the City not wanting the section south of 180th St, or that they didn't have the money to buy the whole Bronx segment? I have not seen anything about why they did not buy it. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Apr 25 15:45:28 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Elkeeper on Tue Apr 25 14:10:57 2017. Hello RandyI discussed this topic some time ago here -- documented City records indicated that the City IN FACT bought the entire section from E. 174th Street Junction, north to and past E. 180th Street Station of the NYW&B. This was part of the one plan, of a few 1940's plans, to run the proposed 2nd Ave Subway up the abandoned NYW&B 2-tracks from Harlem River via a connection from Manhattan under the Harlem River, to a Bronx exit tunnel within the NHRR Harlem yards - and up to E.180th St. Similar to what the 7 train does today within the LIRR Sunnyside Yards. However, the NHRR still needed those 2 tracks for existing Bronx freight customers use from the South Bronx main to Harlem Yards - and some regulations stipulated the IRT and NHRR could not share the same tracks for IRT passenger trains and NHRR freight trains joint operations. I don't recall now the exact details. But yes, the NYCTA owned the ex-NYW&B RR 4-track portion from E. 174th Street north to Dyre Ave. and up to the Bronx-Mt Vernon border line just above that.(Where the 2 layup tail tracks bumpers are on that line above Dyre Avenue Terminal) The City had another plan (to bypass the then-problematic NHRR route) to connect the 2nd Ave Subway to the IRT Pelham Line somewhere in South Bronx (E. 138th street IIRC ?) as that line was built to (and actually for) BMT Subway Standards and use as part of the IRT Lex Ave. Line which was also built to BMT Subway clearance and use standards. That plan, like all the others, went down the toilet ! As time went by into the late 1960's and after, under PC and AMTRAK, parts of the 2 track old S. Bronx NYW&B R-o-W between E. 149th St and vicinity, was taken over by non-railroad private construction use. And most all of the former NYW&B RR 2-tracks rail and ties from E. 174th street southward, was removed to at least E. 149th St yards area. And most of the rail-freight customers were by then gone from along the former 2 NYW&B tracks between Westchester Ave and E. 134th Street. By then, (1970) the finally then-under-construction 2nd Ave. Subway was planned to end at E. 125th Street -- whereas construction started and thus abruptly ended during the City's early 1970's financial crisis. And since then, the former NYW&B route plan thru S. Bronx was long abandoned and forgotten as a potential 2nd Avenue Line connector to Dyre Ave Line. However, if things and conditions, finances, government-mentalities, in current times (well, prior to 4 track embankment and steel trestle demolition and total removal north of E. 174th Street in 2005) were different, and AMTRAK sold to the City, the old abandoned 2-track R-o-W of the ex-NYW&B from Harlem River to E. 174th Street - it would have been very possible to rehab (or fully build new) the ex- NYW&B Stations in the S. Bronx at E.134th St, Cassanova, Hunts point and Westchester Avenue, and connect to and revert the Dyre Line back to 10' wide subway cars (as NYW&B had) and use....as it originally was built for. I can almost even visualize that ! The NHRR had limited shared-access rights (for new rail car and material-cars deliveries to (and from) the NYCTA up to a point where a sign-post was located on the ex-NYW&B steel trestle tracks, placed about a block south of E. 180th Street (about at Loretto St crossing) indicated "NHRR CREWS - STOP HERE". I took photos of that sign in 1964 -- I may have posted it here with my previous long ago write-up. regards - Joe F |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Apr 26 11:40:19 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Apr 25 15:45:28 2017. joe,I remember 3 rd rail going up to,but not into the nhrr interchange at e174st,any photos? |
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[2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Apr 26 15:16:26 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Apr 25 15:45:28 2017.  Location: NYW&B right of way nr. E 174th St./Cross Bronx Expy. at jct. with New Haven RR...Car: MUDC... Photo by: Frank Pfuhler...Date: 6/4/1955...from nycsubway.org  System: New York City Transit...Location: NYW&B right of way nr. E 174th St./Cross Bronx Expy. at jct. with New Haven RR...Car: MUDC...Notes: Scrap line - NYW&B trackage south of E.180th.from nycsubway.org |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 19:49:15 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Apr 26 11:40:19 2017. Hello Steve !I have photos in 1954 and 1955 of 3rd rail going down to about E.175th street where the Cross Bronx X-way was being built in 1954. Uncovered EL style and position 3rd rail on ONLY the outside 2 local tracks. In the early 1960's, 3rd rail was removed from outer local tracks from E. 175th Street and cut back to about E. 177th Street, where it then continued as before, northward. The all-original-NYW&B rail center 2 ex-NYW&B express tracks NEVER had it installed as they were long O.O.S by 1945 BELOW, just outside of, E. 180th Street (NYW&B) Station platforms. The NYCTA by that time had no useful need of, nor active work-train use of, the two ex-NYW&B Local tracks below, south of, that E. 177th Street overpass bridge point for ELECTRIC TRAIN operation. Except for NHRR-Diesel-Loco-only pushed new car deliveries, as in the 1954 thru 1964 new IRT R-Type Car deliveries using that ex-NYW&B trackage -- as well as NYCTA "interchange" rolling stock, NYCTA Hoppper Cars and materials content NYCTA Flat cars, to and from the NYCTA. Remember, I photographed on a snowy day in Feb. 1964, deliveries of brand new IRT R-33 and R-36 Blue & White 1964 NY Worlds Fair cars being delivered on that trackage. (I think I posted those photos here a while ago) The NHRR pushed any consists to be delivered uphill from the E.174th St single track connection from the NHRR S/B Local Main track, north to the third rail point cut back new location at the E. 177th St overpass, and further north to near Loretto St where the NHRR Loco and crew stopped at THAT sign. And likewise, the NHRR Locos and crews PICKED UP any OUTBOUND consists - usually empty NYCTA Hopper cars or NYCTA material loads Flat car - to take southward down grade to the single track and switch connection to the NHRR Main. I would assume these cars ended up at NHRR Oak Point yards for insertion into standard freight trains. The NHRR single switch connection track (installed sometime around late 1953) came off the S/B NHRR local Main, and entered the former NYW&B N/B Express track passing under the overhead E. 174th St roadway bridge. About a block further north uphill the 4-track embankment, near the E. 175th St (Cross Bronx X-way overpass)area, that former N/B express track (actually partly new rail sections of trackage installed by NYCTA) curved gently to the right and then slightly left to be connected to and run along the ex-NYW&B former N/B Local track. The original N/B express track was not connected at the north end of that newly installed slight NB Exp to NB Local changeover. NOR was the N/B local track connected BELOW that new changeover. Both those original NYW&B rail tracks, were totally isolated from any active rail discussed just above. NHRR trains delivering cars to that interchange would, had to, head South on the S/B Local track of the NHRR - running consist-long a few car lengths past that single connecting-switch, and then set the switch for the reverse move across it and PUSH BACKWARDS, north, any consists to be delivered uphill to the NYCTA at their stopping point SIGN located along the track at Loretto Street. The NHRR loco would then uncouple, and head back downgrade to the NHRR Main, and close AND SPIKE CLOSED, the connection switch. I watched a few of these operations between 1959 and 1964. I took photos of one of these special interchange moves in 1964. I think the LAST use of that connection track was some time in either 1974 or 1975 (I'll look date up in my files) when a NHRR Loco Engineer (Noel Weaver) delivered a MACK Sperry Rail Car directly ONTO the NYCYA Property and into the IRT E. 180th St NYW&B Station and to the ex-NYW&B Westchester SHOP Yards with a NYCTA pilot motorman. The E. 174th St switch to the NHRR main was re-set and spiked closed by a NHRR Crew and some time later, that entire connection switch and small section of connection track towards E. 174th St bridge, was removed. Thus completely isolating the ex-NYW&B 4-Track R-0-W and the NYCTA, from the NHRR trackage. Remember, that was also during the time when the ongoing 2nd Ave Subway construction was stopped "indefinately" due to NY City's very dire Fiscal issues. regards - Joe F |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 20:06:36 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 19:49:15 2017. Hello Again Steve ----Well, my date was off a bit for that Sperry Rail Move -it was IN 1972, (NOT 1974-75...heh, sorry !) -- here is the full info to me from my files copy pasted directly from former NHRR Engineer Noel Weaver, fellow NHRR-NYW&B Historian pal ======================================================== By Noel Weaver, former NHRR Engineer - Sat Aug 01, 2009 The New York, Westchester and Boston right of way ended at 174th Street, West Farms at the junction point of the New Haven's Harlem River Branch. For a long time the NYW&B trains below that point were shown in the NHRR employee timetable although in later years they appeared in the NYW&B employee timetable. When the line was sold to the City of New York, it included only the entire right of way from 174th Street north to the city line (at Bronx / Mt.Vernon county line) but there was no need for passenger service below 180th Street in those days nor today either. A track connection was maintained for many years in order to accomplish rail deliveries of stone, materials and subway cars. The NHRR used to haul stone out of Connecticut in special hopper cars lettered for the NYCTA and a yard job out of Oak Point would shove them up that connection and it was a tough move, upgrade on the ex-NYW&B track and always slippery rail conditions. If we had a lot of cars, sometimes two crews would have to doublehead the move. On May 11, 1972 I was called to pilot SRS car 402 from Penn Station to 180th Street using the connection at 174th Street. At that time the switch off the Hell Gate NHRR Main Line was spiked and clamped out of service so they had to call out a M of W crew to take care of the switch for us. The switch was physically removed and the link disconnected very soon after this move, and it is not likely that this connection was ever used again after the above SRS move. Portions if not all of the 4-track embankment and steel trestle bridge work on this NHRR- to NYW&B connection are removed today (2009). Noel Weaver (NHRR & PC ENGINEER) ============================================================= The ex-NYW&B RR 4-track earthern & gravel embankment from E. 174th Street to a bit south of E.177th St bridge, and steel trestle work from there north to Loretto Street, were removed in gradual stages, between 2005 and 2007 approximately. And As I stated and Noel confirmed also, NY CITY bought the entire NYW&B R-o-W from E.174th St junction north to the Bronx-Mt Vernon county line. Regards - Joe F |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 20:40:17 2017, in response to [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Apr 26 15:16:26 2017. Hello BillFirst, the lower B&W Photo is MY 1955 Photo - I may have given a copy to Joel Shanus when I knew and railfanned with him a few times in NY City in the mid 1960's, but it is not HIS photo nor his copyright, jeez---heh. He was a baby in 1955 ! The NYCTA had 3rd rail to that southern point to bring work cars (Flats, Hoppers, perhaps some tank cars) to lay up to be picked up (and re-delivered) by the NHRR Loco(s) and crews. It was also used to provide power for operable BMT EL Gate Motor cars delivered there in the mid 1950's for eventual scrapping. These (the motor cars) ran under their own power north from that point, to and into the ex-NYW&B E. 180th St Station, Also run up to the long single track left-crossover track between the ex-NYW&B N/B Local track over to (and past both long disconnected 2 ex-NYW&B express tracks) the ex-NYW&B S/B Local track and then north into the S/B local track alongside the S/B Local-Express Island Platform of the ex-NYW&B E. 180th St Station. Then those El Car consists - but first if anything was removed, salvaged from these cars at that point there by TA crews for re-use - were then run SOUTH under power on the former NYW&B S/B local track (and its EL style 3rde rail) to the point just next to the under construction Cross Bronx X-way -- to be derailed and rolled off the embankment and dragged along the grounds of the former Starlight Amusement park, to be placed in rows to be burned and scrapped. Just like the track the IRT EL MUDC EL cars seen stored on the S.B local track in my B&W photo and Frank P's color photo. It was also used to deliver the new IRT R-17 cars in late 1954 - possibly also to run under their own power from that point up to E.180th Street and the IRT yards there. In the early 1960's, that 3rd rail was removed as seen in the 2 photos, and cut back to the E. 177th street Trestle seen in the distance. I think the LAST new IRT subway cars delivered there were in 1963 thru 1964, the R-33S and R-36 WF cars. WHY this 3rd rail was cut back to E. 177th Street is a NYCTA decision, I don't know THAT particular reason other than that it was done as track not necessary to be electrified. regards - Joe F |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Apr 27 05:53:48 2017, in response to Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 20:40:17 2017. Thanks for that valuable information.Bill Newkirk |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 27 06:14:28 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 20:06:36 2017. Thanks for the detailed explanations, as always! |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Apr 27 10:08:09 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Apr 27 11:20:50 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 27 06:14:28 2017. Hello 3-9 AND Bill (Newkirk)Thanks both for your comments -- appreciated. As time goes by this type of nascent historical information becomes further and further into the growing distant fog of many past decades ago and eventually gets lost forever unless recorded and shared. SO I share what I can here to those who may appreciate and / or find it useful and interesting. Here is a photo taken in July 1957 looking north from a point between E. 174th St roadway overpass bridge,(behind us) and E.175th Street and the adjacent then-under-construction Cross Bronx X-way overpass seen in distance. It is taken standing between the long abandoned (since 1945) ex-NYW&B Railway 2 center Express tracks on the upgrade earthern 4 track roadbed embankment. On the former NYW&B RR S/B Local track is seen a train of BMT 700 series Center Door El Gate motor cars, with # 749 in the lead and #752 behind it. And another train of same BMT EL Gate cars stored just north of the Expressway overpass. Note the BMT EL Motor Car truck (and its BMT-trademark lower end-tie bar at it's left side) draped across the S/B Local track rails as a temporary "bumper" to keep the stored EL cars from free-rolling downgrade towards, under and past the E. 174th St roadway bridge. That S/B Local track ended abruptly at the trackless gravel abandoned NYW&B 2-track roadbed past that point, parallel to the NHRR Mainline. However, as a few sections of the S/B Local track westerly rail, somewhat ahead (south of) of the first car, was removed, the runaway would more likely have just derailed (as was intended) and veered off-track to the (photo left side) west and rolled over and tumbled down the edge of the embankment about 12 feet to the flat abandoned grounds of the former Starlight Amusement Park Grounds  regards - Joe F |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Apr 27 11:48:46 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 19:49:15 2017. Hmmmmmmmmmmm,like I said,I remember 3rd rail with protection board up to the nhrr switch.I was down there several times between 1964 to apx.1975.I,m probably the only guy that actually rode a low V work train from E180st to the pickup point at the trestle to pick up a string of ballast cars.thanks for great information as usual. |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Apr 27 11:56:08 2017, in response to Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 20:40:17 2017. Wow.The TA obviously had no intention on using this section for SAS service. Just selling lip service to the riders to shut them up. |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Apr 27 12:54:14 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Apr 27 11:20:50 2017. Great post. Wish I could have seen this firsthand. |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Apr 27 13:02:51 2017, in response to Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Edwards! on Thu Apr 27 11:56:08 2017. Wow.The TA obviously had no intention on using this section for SAS service. Just selling lip service to the riders to shut them up. Lack of $$$$ always comes into play. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Apr 27 13:08:08 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Apr 27 11:20:50 2017. Having seen service in Brooklyn and Manhattan Park Row, this should be the only time the 700 series el cars set foot in The Bronx.Did you take the photo and if so, did you see Edward Luciano's car ? Also, that the Cross Bronx Expressway in the background ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 27 14:48:25 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Apr 25 15:45:28 2017. I think I've seen that pic on Flickr... |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Apr 27 14:50:00 2017, in response to Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Apr 27 13:02:51 2017. Yup. |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 27 14:55:50 2017, in response to Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Apr 26 20:40:17 2017. I've seen the pics (yours?) on Flickr of the R33/36 WF cars being delivered there. Great pics! But I have a question, that might apply to the scrapping operations in the 1950s as well...How did they (TA or NHRR) get the cars to/from the unpowered tracks onto 3rd rail? Did the TA have any diesel or steam locomotives yet to accomplish this? OR, as I suspect, did the NHRR use its own locomotives to push the new cars (R17, R33/36WF, etc) to a point where a TA electric work train could push one car into the gap zone, couple up, and move to 180th Street? Were locomotives used at all in the scrap moves? Or the cars just operated to the end of the third rail, allowed to stall, and de-railed right there? Your pics and what you said above suggest that... |
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Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Thu Apr 27 20:25:35 2017, in response to East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Apr 20 12:30:54 2017. nice photos |
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Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Apr 27 20:53:46 2017, in response to Re: [2 PHOTOS] Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by MainR3664 on Thu Apr 27 14:55:50 2017. Hello Main R3664Your QUESTION: ".....How did they (TA or NHRR) get the cars to/from the unpowered tracks onto 3rd rail? Did the TA have any diesel or steam locomotives yet to accomplish this? OR, as I suspect, did the NHRR use its own locomotives to push the new cars (R17, R33/36WF, etc) to a point where a TA electric work train could push one car into the gap zone, couple up, and move to 180th Street?...." My ANSWER: I did explain this in my previous message to some degree -- the NHRR diesel(s) pushed the delivered consist north from the single connection switch at the NHRR S/B Local Main - to a point where the north-end head car of such consists was a length or so beyond the start of the 3rd rail equipped single delivery track. If it was a material train (hoppers, flats, whatever) a train of surplus ex-Subway Car horses surplus IRT Hi-V Motor cars passenger-retired between 1953-58, used until themselves scrapped at Starlight by 1960". Then alternately replaced by surplus IRT Low-V motor cars assigned for that "work-horses" purpose, which would likewise operate downgrade, and couple air-iron to the delivered consist, and tow it back up to E. 180th Street complex and into the IRT yards there... and do the reverse to DELIVER such TA consists to the NHRR for pickup. To my knowledge, and a few others who remember, TA Diesels were never used on that stretch for picking up or delivering cars in that 1953-1960's period. Usually plentiful subway motor car "work horses" did the job. Usually a train of 4 coupled motor cars could do the job very well. For scrapping EL cars -- trailers and unpowered cars, a dedicated train of many spare IRT EL standard Van-Dorn link & Pin coupler MUDC cars were used as work-horses to Van-Dorn coupler air-iron link to the unpowered EL cars, all also having those type couplers, and, push, guide them downgrade to the "stopping" point on the ex-NYW&B RR S/B local track to between E. 174th and E. 175th Streets. It would make sense that hand brakes likely were activated all or even just some of the "dead" cars when they were stored ... and released for each as they were later pushed/ rolled dead, a bit further south to the "derail" track to fall onto the Starlite Park former grounds. Your QUESTION: "....Were locomotives used at all in the scrap moves? Or the cars just operated to the end of the third rail, allowed to stall, and de-railed right there? Your pics and what you said above suggest that..." My ANSWER: All answered above -- and all "stalled or then "deactivated-dead" cars were rolled UN-MANNED down a short section of S/B track to the derail point. Additionally, for time and quick-access reasons, on many occasions scrap-contractor cranes were used to LIFT certain cars off the NYW&B S/B track to 'crane' lift, carry and deposit them to assigned spots in scrapping-rows located much further away along the west edge of the former Starlight Park grounds scrapping property along the Bronx River, I think - was it Tunnel Bat (Steve)- who commented here some time ago, that some TA motorman HE knew ran a TA work diesel, as a curiosity-lark, down the ex-NYW&B's embankment (in the 1990's ??) on the sole surviving long previous one time "active" track -- as far south as he could until the loco forward truck derailed.... if so, Steve can finish the story... Regards - Joe F |
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| (1434460) | |
Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Apr 27 21:18:22 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by K. Trout on Thu Apr 27 12:54:14 2017. Hello K Trout ---Yes, It was something to see. And easy access --- and the scrap crews were very accommodating and friendly. However, by about 1960 or so, massive neighborhood NIMBY opposition to the scrapping because of the smoke and smell of the regular ongoing burning wood and other materials from scrapped EL and Subway Cars - caused much political grief for the scrapper companies, and by I think 1962, scrapping programs were ended for good, and the scrap-grounds were graded and cleaned up to remove any remains of the scrapping processes ongoing since the 1950's Can you imagine that the whole NYW&B Railway R-o-W - its massive 4 track wide rising embankment fill from E. 174th street to just below E. 177th Street trestle overpass, and the steel 4-track massive trestle north to the north sidewalk line of Loretto Street, is COMPLETELY REMOVED, GONE !! The only trace of the NYW&B BELOW E. 177th Street is the NYW&B Railways FIRST Signal Bridge and Wire Gantry tower, on the beginning of their 4 track dedicated property, just a bit north of the E. 174th St bridge, which was saved as part of the new "Starlight Nature Grounds Park" or whatever they call it) Even the short remains of the connection switch track tie remnants and NYW&B additional few remnant NYW&B tracks under and just south of the E. 174th Street bridge, were excavated and removed. You would never think a Million Dollar a Mile mainline first class electric railway line ever existed there the way it appears today ! regards - Joe F |
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| (1434470) | |
Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 28 00:11:18 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by tunnelrat on Thu Apr 27 11:48:46 2017. Hello Tunnel Rat - Steve !You are unfortunately, somewhat tho partially, incorrect ! It is confirmed by my quite very many photos that I had taken on that R-o-W site in Feb. 1964 and in May 1964, from E. 174th St JCT north to E. 180th St, and seen by countless many in my FLICKR NYW&B RR Album of such images, and others who know the area well, including retired NHRR / PC engineer Noel Weaver, and of course my NYW&B Railway Historian late-pal Roger Arcara knew back then, that........... (a) -- there was NEVER, ever, COVERED 3rd Rail on ANY of the, those, tracks BELOW at least the E. 177th St Trestle overpass south to E. 174th st junction . (b) -- And NEVER COVERED 3rd Rail on any portion of the, any, tracks prior to at least 1972-3, if not later. And it was uncovered EL style 3rd rail. And emphatically NEVER 3rd rail south down to the NHRR Connection switch to the NHRR Main !! NEVER!! See BELOW just a few of my very many more Feb. 1964 photos, with captions, that I took on the R-o-W site; as found in my FLICKR Album; =========================================================== SOUTH in Feb. 1964 under E. 174St Bridge to ex-NYW&B N/B Express track and switch to NHRR S/B Main Local Track and NO THIRD RAIL visible - as a NHRR Crew and train gets ready to back NYCTA Hoppers north over the junction to E. 180th St  NORTH in Feb. 1964 along the NYW&B Embankment as a string of NYCTA Hoppers is pushed upgrade on the ex-NYW&B N/b Express track by a rear pushing NHRR RS-3 Diesel. The S/B local track and its gravel on the embankment have both been severely eroded away and damaged from years of derail-rolling EL and Subway cars off so as to tumble and fall to the left (west) to the grounds below to be scrapped  NORTH in Feb. 1964 to under and beyond the E. 174th St road overpass bridge showing the former N/B ex-NYW&B Express now actively maintained interchange track heading upgrade from the NHRR Junction behind us, and NO THIRD RAIL ! The SIGN indicates that NHRR CREWS are to operate to the NEXT Sign, which is located on the Trestle near Loretto Street.  NORTH in Feb 1964 along the "active" maintained former NYW&B N/B Express track used for interchange trains -- note NO third rail at this point and up thru and past the Cross Bronx Expressway  NORTH in Feb. 1964 to just under the cross Bronx X-way where the former NB Express track was diverted right to mate up with the parallel N/B Local track -- and NO 3rd RAIL visible. BUT NOTE that uncovered El style 3rd Rail comes southward from the OTHER side of the overpass, and ends under the center of the overpass along the left side of the active track !  NORTH in Feb. 1964 along former NYW&B N/B truncated and abandoned, disconnect Express track, with the active interchange track shited to the N/B local track location at right, and its uncovered El style 3rd rail plainly seen somewhat just north of where the 3rd Rail ended ! Also, a bit north is seen where the 4-track R-o-W earth embankment ended, and the concrete decked 4 track steel trestle viaduct begins at the visible E. 177th Street overpass bridge.  SO - I rest My Case !! Steve, my long ago having been told, heh, that you were seen in an old B&W photo taken in late October 1904 on the Grand Central Subway Station platform of the late Oct. 1904 opening of the lst IRT Subway I now sadly realize, heh, your extreme old age is likely finally catching up with you !! You ARE CORRECT, however, that covered 3rd rail was on the former NB Local track, thru the E. 180th St Station. The IRT EL Gate Shuttle cars used subway type 3rd rail shoes when starting IRT Dyre Ave. Shuttle service in May 1941 from Dyre Terminal to and out from the former N/B Local track of the ex-NYW&B E. 180th St Station. ALSO the 3rd rail extended south from that station and track onto the trestle, but uncovered EL Style, to a temporary bumper just south of Loretto Street. I have a photo of it in my collection. So Shuttle EL cars could be stored on that track and go no further south then (1941-1945) I have a photo in 1972 and in 1997 showing, YES -- covered 3rd rail thru that station track and south from the N/B island station platform to the Trestle -- but I remember a BUMPER for some period of time on the former N/B local track somewhere above the E. 177th St crossing trestle. By 1972, the switch to the NHRR was gone and there was no more interchange capabilities and thus no further need nor reason to use ANY of the downgrade-descending 4 tracks south of E. 178th Street at the very south. Regards - Joe F ! |
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| (1434475) | |
Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 28 05:34:07 2017, in response to Re: East 180th Street (4/10/17), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 28 00:11:18 2017. Hello ALL -A CORRECTION on a Street name I mis-named in a few of my just previous posted photos and in some texts on this Thread Topic -- regarding my mentioning a strategic point of reference on or along the ex-NYW&B Trestle. For the record -- The street I named as "Loretto" Street is actually " LEBANON " Street! It is the first east-west street directly SOUTH of E.180th Street and both crossed under the NYW&B 4-Track Trestle. HERE BELOW is an AERIAL photo of and over that street in present day relation to the location of the cut back point of the very short remains of the ex-NYW&B Trestle, and you see the trestle ends along the NORTH sidewalk of LEBANON STREET (and NOT "Loretto" Street as I incorrectly referenced a few times)  BELOW is a 1997 view south from the south end of the ex-NYW&B N/B Express platform, to the 4 track trestle curving southward. The building at the left is on south side of LEBANON STREET. Note the covered subway style 3rd rail at this location of the one remaining N/B LOCAL TRACK. Today, a new apartment building sits built directly on the ex-NYW&B former R-o-W land along the south side of Lebanon street, to the right of the older long-existing building. And, heh, ALL its front windows look directly north across Lebanon Street to the cut-back massive steelwork stump end of the now very short remaining one block long track trestle !!! Nice View for the tenants, heh !  And HERE BELOW for comparison to above, is a great near identical view from the same N/B island platform platform south end, taken in the mid 1930's showing a cloudy day view of a NYW&B Railway S/B 2-car Express Train which just departed the S/B Local-Express Island Platform.  |
