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| Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route (1430518) | |
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| (1430518) | |
Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Mar 18 10:46:51 2017 I've been shut in a bit recovering from an illness.... spent some time looking at the old Brooklyn els. I'm stumped at the upper end of the 5th Ave el. I know it came off Sands St and I know it went down Hudson Ave, made a little S jog at Fulton to go down Flatbush and then a gentle turn down 5th at today's Barclay Center. But what about Flatbush to Sands. What was the route? Maybe up Hudson to Tillary then left and up to Sands? It had a flat crossover to the Myrtle at Hudson and Myrtle, right? |
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| (1430528) | |
Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017, in response to Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Mar 18 10:46:51 2017. It ran along the Myrtle El before branching off at Hudson Avenue, i.e. via Adams and Myrtle. It did not use Fulton.You may be thinking of the Old Main Line, which ran from the Fulton Ferry via York Street, Hudson Avenue, Park Avenue, Grand Avenue, Lexington Avenue, Broadway, Fulton Street and Crescent Street to Cypress Hills. Part of it is still in use. The Fifth Avenue El originally branched off at Hudson and Park and ran down Hudson from there and Flatbush to Atlantic, crossing Myrtle at grade. After a collision at the grade crossing, the line was abandoned. It was reopened when a junction was built at Myrtle rerouting it onto the Myrtle El. The section between Myrtle and Park remained closed until the Park Avenue El closed in 1890, at which point the Old Main Line was rerouted onto that section of Hudson Avenue and onto the Myrtle El. The Old Main Line closed around 1901. 1924 aerial map Doesn't work on a phone which is why I can't scroll it for you. But enjoy! |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Sat Mar 18 12:19:45 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017. Thank you for the information. Cool! |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 13:20:26 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017. The remainder of the Old Main Line, from Hudson/Myrtle to its own Fulton Ferry terminal (under the Brooklyn Bridge), closed on April 10th, 1904.From what I have read, there were some protests about its closing. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 14:03:51 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017. I also want to clarify that after the Old Main Line was routed onto the Myrtle El and Park Avenue was closed, they did NOT restore the straight through route from the Old Main Line onto 5th. All OML trains turned east onto Myrtle and all 5th Trains turned west onto Myrtle. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 14:04:11 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 13:20:26 2017. Thank you. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 18 14:39:03 2017, in response to Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Mar 18 10:46:51 2017. Speaking of elevated lines..its a real shame that the routes that were actually useful were never replaced by subways.The Myrtle Lexington were prime routes that should have been either rebuilt or fully placed underground ,or even branches from Fulton subway or the Crosstown. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 18 16:19:41 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 18 14:39:03 2017. Certain elevated routes were never replaced by subways due to low ridership. Fortunately some were replaced by subways before their parallel els were torn down unlike 2 Av in Manhattan which is still waiting for a full replacement for the 2 and 3 Av els that used to serve the area. |
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| (1430578) | |
Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Mar 18 20:53:44 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 14:03:51 2017. Thanks Pig. Totally clear now. that 1924 map is very helpful. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 21:16:09 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 18 14:39:03 2017. Talk about abandoning the Lexington el go back to 1937, 3 years before Unification. When the City took over the BMT on 6/01/1940, it was kept to provide full-time service to Park Row. Prior to that date, it ran to Park Row only during rush hours, to supplement Fulton St el service. After unification, it also supplemented Fulton el service, between Grant Ave and Atlantic Ave. When WWII broke out, it supplemented the Myrtle Ave line to transport shipyard workers.After the War ended in 1945, ridership again began to decline. First targeted for closure in 1948, it was kept running, simply because there was no money to tear it down. Instead, the demolition money was used, in 1949, to tear down the Bergen Ave Cutoff, which had been standing idle, since November, 1946. Lex ridership continued to decline until it was decided to shut down the line on Oct 13th, 1950. Like the Myrtle Ave line in 1969, nobody ever protested its closure! |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 21:33:55 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 14:04:11 2017. You are welcome. From what I have pieced together, the BRT wanted it closed, in order to avoid energizing the third rail, which had been installed on it. That would have diverted much-needed current for Sands St and Park Row lines.After the Myrtle Ave el started to operate electrified trains on Jan 11th, 1904, the Hudson Ave spur would have been the only line with a steam engine. The NYC Dept of Health, which inspected the elevated lines at the time, found one bolt missing and two others broken on the spur. Instead of replacing the 3 bolts, the BRT apparently used this report as an excuse to close it. On, or about June 16th, 1904, the BRT petitioned for abandonment, which was granted. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Mar 18 22:05:52 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 21:33:55 2017. Very interested. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Mar 18 22:26:33 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 21:33:55 2017. "in order to avoid energizing the third rail"There's an excuse we don't hear any more for not opening new lines! |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 22:32:52 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Mar 18 22:26:33 2017. The BRT was having enough problems furnishing 550 volts for all of those el lines ending at either Park Row, or the High Street Loop. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 19 11:23:41 2017, in response to Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Mar 18 10:46:51 2017. The flat crossing at Hudson and Myrtle lasted one overnight before there was a collision that closed the brand-new 5th Avenue Line for more than a year. Thereafter a new curve took 5th Avenue trains via Myrtle from then to the end.After the 4th Avenue Subway opened, the 5th really became primarily the Culver Line with the Bay Ridge Line as a spur, often a shuttle. When a good portion of Culver trains became Culver-Nassaus in 1931 the 5th declined further. You could still see the junction at Hudson until the Myrtle was closed in 1969. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 19 13:39:12 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 19 11:23:41 2017. The same day that Culver subway service opened on May 30th, 1931, the Culver el was cut back to the High Street (Sands St) loop. This was done to increase ridership on the new line's Chambers St station, located near Park Row el terminal. After that, the only Culver el trains to run to/from Park Row were summer express specials, beginning on July 4th, 1933, until Labor Day. I don't know how many years that summer special operated, but I heard that it was well patronized.Culver subway service on the Nassau Loop soon lost its novelty. Service was cut back to about 6AM-7:30PM with the 5th Ave-Culver el service providing service at other times. A lot of riders preferred to transfer from Culver subway or el trains to Broadway-West End Expresses at 9th Ave. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Mar 19 23:49:21 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 14:03:51 2017. Thanks for the info. Here's an interesting post Chris R16/R2730 posted here about the western portion of the Old Main Line. There is an error on the map: it should say "Service on Park Ave east of Hudson Ave discontinued in 1891". |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 20 03:17:23 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 21:33:55 2017. Thanks for your post. I did not know that third rail had actually been installed (maps I'd seen said "never electrified"), and that the bottom line issue was about BRT's unwillingness due to potential lack of power. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 20 03:19:10 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 22:32:52 2017. I wonder if this was ever written about in St. Railway J. or other transit publications of the day? |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 20 03:35:40 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by SLRT on Sun Mar 19 11:23:41 2017. Posted this before: I saw that out the back window of a Q-Type, railfanning the Myrtle Ave. el, spring 1968 & in 1969. Regret very much that I never phtographed it - just like the Fulton St. el bent remaining at Franklin ave. (sigh!) |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Mon Mar 20 13:40:56 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017. As someone who passed by Washington and York Streets for years heading to and from work, it's hard to imagine an elevated train running overhead and all the activity a few blocks south. Just the constant roar, smell, and shadow of the BQE.At least there's now a sidewalk on the north side of York Street there now... |
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| (1430690) | |
Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 14:46:23 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017. Right up to the end, the Myrtle had a turnout that was aimed straight at an old tenement building. By the age of the building (it was OLD in 1969), I'd guess this connection was severed very early in the line's history. Was this the connection to the 5th Ave Line, or the grade crossing, or whatever?Any clarity would be greatly appreciated... |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 14:52:32 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 14:46:23 2017. I'm sorry that I'm not so good at linking stuff...but here's the URL of the picture I'm talking about...https://pcullinan.smugmug.com/Brooklyn/The-Myrtle-Avenue-El/Myrtle-Ave-El-Oct-1969/i-xwB4F2M |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 20 15:06:15 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 14:52:32 2017. That building still stands at the northeast corner of Myrtle Avenue and Grand Avenue. This is the Park Avenue El referenced in my post which was demolished in 1891. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Mon Mar 20 15:15:14 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 18 11:35:42 2017. Doesn't work on a phone which is why I can't scroll it for you. But enjoy!It might be a good idea to write them about that. On an iPad it seems to be nearly fully functional, but there's no way to pan, which is strange. Zooming and panning the NYC OASIS map works well on a tablet (and presumably on smartphones as well), but their aerial imagery only goes back to 1996. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 15:21:27 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 20 15:06:15 2017. Ok, thanks. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 15:22:15 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 13:20:26 2017. Didn't a train take the switch and enter that segment, even after demolition started? |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 15:50:32 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 20 03:17:23 2017. I believe tha spur was kept, after 12/30/1890 (the official closing date of Park Ave el), because Fredrick Uhlmann, the BRT president wanted to build a train bridge over the East River. I believe that he kept the spur as possible alternate route to his first proposed plan for a bridge just north of the present WillyB. After 4 years of getting nowhere with the NYC (Manhattan, before 1898) and NY state, the BRT's charted was recalled in 1896. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 15:53:22 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Mar 20 15:06:15 2017. I believe the Grand Ave and Park Ave sections were torn down in 1894, three years later. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 20 17:23:15 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 18 21:16:09 2017. Actually, if I remember, there were protests to reopen Myrtle which is why the Myrtle el structure between Bway and Bridge St came down as quickly as it did. Had it taken as long to tear down Myrtle as it did Fulton after 1956, the MTA might very well have been forced to resume service on it. with the el structure demolished, by the time the case would have come to court, the MTA could have successfully argued that rebuilding the structure would have been prohibitively expensive and not feasible. As it was, once the structure came down there was no longer any point for any legal action to proceed. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 20 17:32:32 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 19 13:39:12 2017. I don’t recall hearing about any cessation of Culver subway service until long after the IND took over the line S/O Ditmas in 1954. Of course after 1940 when the 5 Av el came down. the only Culver service into Manhattan was subway. A few BMT old timers I worked with told me that after 5 Av shut down. Culver el trains ran between Stl and 9 Ave supplementing the Culver subway service which only ran between K/Hwy and Chambers St during the week. Nights and weekends the Culver ran from Stl to Chambers and towards the end of through Culver service, the el trains only ran between Stl and K/Hwy during the week since there were not enough steel cars to provide through service during rush hours. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 19:42:50 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 20 17:23:15 2017. I lived in Highland Park, watched the TV news and read the Long Island press almost every day. I never saw any mention of protests. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 20 20:09:20 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 19:42:50 2017. You reveal why you never saw any mention -- "the Long Island press." |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 20:51:17 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 20 17:32:32 2017. I never mentioned a cessation of Culver service. After the 5th Ave el shut down on 6/01/40, Culver subway service to Chambers St ran only from 6AM-7:30PM. I knew about the rest, Randy. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 20:54:27 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 20 14:52:32 2017. Any photos of post-unification track remnants at Hudson and Myrtle? I don't remember seeing any old crossover remnants in any 1960's photos. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Mar 20 21:56:42 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 20 20:09:20 2017. The Long Island press ignores Manhattan almost as badly as the Manhattan press ignores Nassau and Suffolk. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Mar 21 01:53:03 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 20:54:27 2017. Here's a link with a photo. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Mar 21 04:02:02 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 20:54:27 2017. I'll try to keep this post short, since I've written this before in an earlier thread a several months back - I think in response to a post of yours.I saw the structural evidence under the Myrtle Ave. el for bot of the turnouts for Hudson St. & the Old Main Line. David Rogoff had cited them in his mid 60s ERA bulletin article about BMT- BRT abandoned structures/ stations. I was walking under that section of the el (reason why is in the earlier post) in October '69. I was able to look up and clearly see the both turnout trackway remains, as built into the Myrtle's structure. I had the camera with me. And no, didn't take photos. Should have. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Mar 21 07:06:37 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by VictorM on Tue Mar 21 01:53:03 2017. Judging by the warehouses and the cleared lots, I'd think this was in the 1940s, when they were starting to um, "renew" the area- no?In a response to the 2010 post, someone said it looked like farmland. With all due respect (seriously) to that person, the lots surrounding the buildings look rubble-filled to me. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Mar 21 07:11:34 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 20 17:23:15 2017. Looking at the rush hour crowds in Patrick Cullinan's photos, it would seem to me the Myrtle had a constituency. Too bad they didn't succeed. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 12:41:11 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Mar 20 21:56:42 2017. The LIP had a Queens & Brooklyn edition, as I recall. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 13:01:50 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 20:54:27 2017. I wanted to see the remnants at Myrtle & Hudson Aves, where the 5th Ave el used to turn off and headed south. But, thanks for this photo from Mellowone! |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 16:36:58 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 13:01:50 2017. Let me clarify my question. Is that structure segment from Navy St/Myrtle Ave west to Hudson Ave north, or from Navy/Myrtle east to Hudson Ave south (5th Ave el demolition)? |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Mar 21 17:44:25 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 16:36:58 2017. It's the north side from Navy St/Myrtle Av west to Hudson Av north. That 8 story factory building in the middle of the photo is still there. Also, looking at a 1924 aerial map, it appears the 5th Av line branched off just west of Hudson Av, so trains coming south down Hudson Av could not have accessed 5th Av and would have had to proceed east along Myrtle Av instead. |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 21 18:02:07 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Mar 20 20:51:17 2017. If I recall seeing some of the old Culver timetables laying around the schedule office, Culver/Nassau ran 24/7 until 1954 when the IND took over. |
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| (1430792) | |
Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 21 18:09:42 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by VictorM on Tue Mar 21 01:53:03 2017. Although there may have been some remnants of that junction visible from the street as some posters have indicated, by the 1960s it was not visible from the structure itself. I rode Myrtle quite often from 1959 on until its demolition and was both a C/R and a M/M on it in its last years of operation and was never able to see any trace of it from the trains. A similar situation exists with the Bway Bkln el near Gates Ave. While you can see traces of the Lex Av ell connection from the street, nothing is visible from the trains. |
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| (1430803) | |
Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Mar 21 19:15:08 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 13:01:50 2017. I wanted to see the remnants at Myrtle & Hudson Aves, where the 5th Ave el used to turn off and headed south.This image is a frame grab from a YouTube video of pictures of the Myrtle Ave El. It occurs at the 1:42 mark. The triangular segments were apparently the remains of the structure on the south side of the El where it branched off onto Hudson Avenue (building in the right distance). The small text at the upper left corner indicates that this photo came from the nycsubway.org gallery.  The full video can be seen at MYRTLE AVENUE EL in pictures |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 21:39:35 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Mar 21 19:15:08 2017. Thanks for the photo! |
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Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Mar 22 00:44:43 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Mar 21 12:41:11 2017. I remember the L.I. Press out in Suffolk ran at least one article (maybe more than once) during that late 60s period in Queens when many of the original R1-9's had mechanical problems that kept out of service. |
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| (1431067) | |
Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 23 13:09:27 2017, in response to Re: Fifth Ave el - Upper end Route, posted by Express Rider on Mon Mar 20 03:35:40 2017. Yup, we've lost a number of bits of physical evidence of former lines since about 1960. Among them:5th, Lex, Park Avenue stubs when Myrtle came down. All but one girder (I think) of the Chestnut Street ramp. The Lex connection at Broadway (completely?) The last piece of original Kings County "spider" structure when the Franklin Shuttle was rehabbed. The old Sea Beach right-of-way south of 86th Street, swallowed up by Coney Island Yard expansion. A few deteriorating piers of the Sea Beach bridge over Coney Island Creek (something may still show underwater). Quite a bit still exists, but some gets harder to see, such as the Sea Beach tunnel under 4th Avenue. You can also trace a good amount of surface right-of-way that has not been completely built over. |
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