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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 22 19:52:19 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 22 16:51:31 2017. Weekend J's to Broad St. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 23 00:10:00 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 22 19:52:19 2017. Out of pressure to restore connectivity.If it were up to them,the J would still be ending at Chambers. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 23 07:22:48 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 23 00:10:00 2017. Likely because of the FTC boondoggle and they had to do something to show for it. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 25 07:31:54 2017, in response to SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 14 07:08:29 2017. Here is the average turnstile counts for the 3 new SAS stations for 17,21,23,23 Jan 2017, as per the turnstile counts from the MTA website.Enter: 60,484.5 Exit: 51,919 Total: 114,403.5 n.b. There was a problem with what my program calculated for 72nd St for 23 Jan from 8pm to midnight. I used the figure from previous day instead of what I calculated from web site download. I'll investigate later. It should not make much difference in overall calculations. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 25 14:37:25 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 25 07:31:54 2017. Hmm..seems like projections are holding steady between 110 and 130 tops. Not exactly what they claimed to get it built.Did building this segment first,instead of where the riders actually NEEDED IT Show us the MTA position on public relations? |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 20:09:37 2017, in response to SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 14 07:08:29 2017. Here is the average turnstile counts for the 3 new SAS stations for 24,27,28 Feb ,1,2 Mar 2017, as per the turnstile counts from the MTA website. This is the last of the comparisons, I plan to file. It looks like the averages are pretty steady.Enter: 64,526 Exit: 52,318.2 Total: 116,844.2 For comparison purposes here are the average counts for the 4 Lex stops from 68th through 96th for the same time period. Enter: 124,801.6 Exit: 94,990.4 Total: 219,792 And the same totals for the same 4 stops from the same week in 2016. Enter: 170,950.2 Exit: 120,488.4 Total: 291,438.6 For those who are arithmetically challenged, here are the differences: Enter: 46,148.6 Exit: 25,498 Total: 71,646.6 According to NYMTC's 2015 Hub Bound Report the 8-9 period accounts for roughly 12% of the 24 hour total. Applying this statistic to the data, the peak hour saw approximately 5.7K fewer passengers. According to NYCT loading guidelines, this could be handled by 6 more locals during this hour. The same NYMTC reports show that 21 locals ran during this hour. Adding 9 more locals during this hour would bring the service level up to 30 tph. That's well within the system's capabilities. I posted a cost estimate for added Lex locals vs. the reduced cost for operating the current amount of Q's passed 57th St. It will still take roughly 1000 years to recover the SAS cost. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Mar 4 20:49:06 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 20:09:37 2017. If I understand these figures, the refugees from the Lex are only part of the SAS ridership. So, some "new" riders have been generated. Not as many as projected, but let us see what 6 months or a year look like. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Mar 4 21:07:54 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 20:09:37 2017. 1000 years to recoup costs based on increased ridership may be insignificant in comparison to the money that the city will see from increased investment in that area. That's kinda what "infrastructure" is for isn't it? |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 21:39:04 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Easy on Sat Mar 4 21:07:54 2017. 1000 years to recoup costs based on increased ridership may be insignificant in comparison to the money that the city will see from increased investment in that area.The UES, the area that this spur serves, is already one of the most expensive and overdeveloped areas in the City. In case you had not heard, the Ruppert Brewery was turned into luxury apartments ages ago. The Bundists, in their lederhosen, have departed and no longer plan putches. The people who replaced them have sufficient funds to buy out any would be developer. It's not a spot that would attract developers. Developers are looking for less expensive and relatively undeveloped areas. The UES does not fit that profile. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Sat Mar 4 23:09:53 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 21:39:04 2017. You may forget that the SAS has a station at 96th St. The catchment area for that station extends well beyond the "expensive" UES. You may also have overlooked the fact that the new line is known as "Phase 1." That presupposes a Phase 2 that is already in the planning process and will serve even more underdeveloped areas in East Harlem.And the word is putsch. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Mar 5 01:55:08 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 20:09:37 2017. Thanks for posting these weekly totals. Has there been an increase in riders entering the Lex/63St station? If so, I think most of those extra riders could be added to the Q total. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 06:35:42 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by VictorM on Sun Mar 5 01:55:08 2017. Has there been an increase in riders entering the Lex/63St station? If so, I think most of those extra riders could be added to the Q total.You're really trying hard to capture every last imaginary SAS user! :=) If more people are entering at 63rd St as a result of the SAS, they can be categorized by destination. If it's uptown, their use of the 3 new stops is already captured on their return trip. If it's downtown and because of the SAS service, they are finding the new downtown BMT service at 63rd St attractive. However, getting direct downtown BMT service at 63rd St did not require building the SAS. Such service could have been provided by swapping N and R terminals in Queens. The N could have run as a Broadway express/Queens Blv local and the R would be a Broadway local to Astoria. It did not take the expenditure of $4 billion to provide such service. Therefore, I would disagree with your suggestion that any 63rd St usage should be attributed to the SAS. There are definite operational advantages (and one big disadvantage) to such routing. The advantages are elimination of merging delays. The 60th St tunnel is maxed out at 30 tph (according to NYCT), while the nearby 63rd St tunnel runs a leisurely 15 tph. Such a move would permit increased service on both Astoria and Queens Blv locals. The operational disadvantage is there would be no yard facilities near the R terminals in Astoria or Bay Ridge. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 07:08:44 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 21:39:04 2017. You would have argued against building the 6th Avenue subway in the 1930's, figuring they could cram, all those extra trains and people onto more 8th Avenue, Broadway BMT, and west side IRT trains. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:07:58 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 07:08:44 2017. The 8th Ave, BMT and IRT were operating far higher service levels (tph) in the 1930's, then they do today. Peak hour demand was also higher then. The ability to expand peak hour service levels on these lines was nearly nil.I would have questioned, given these conditions, whether it was wise to remove the existing Els. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:20:39 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Italianstallion on Sat Mar 4 23:09:53 2017. Thank you for the spelling correction.The catchment area for the new 96th St terminal has failed to materialize. It's been the consistent patronage laggard of the 3 new stations and by a lot. I gather the Phase 2 planning push into East Harlem is part of a plan to remove people of more modest means from their close proximity to the UES. How dare such people rely on subsidized housing, Medicaid and food stamps, when the only largess available to UES residents is the subsidized SAS. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Mar 5 12:42:26 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:07:58 2017. Please note that in the 1930's the trains of the IRT and the BMT were shorter than they are now.In addition the trains used on the IRT elevated lines were not as lengthy as the current trains. Yes, higher number of trains per hour, but there were major differences. The train frequencies listed in the WPA Guides For NYC are interesting. Mike |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 12:43:13 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:07:58 2017. But IND and IRT rush hour locals were 6 or 8 cars, correct ? |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 12:51:53 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sun Mar 5 12:42:26 2017. The SAS of today would have been a lot cheaper had they not made Taj Mahals of every station mezzanine. They needed to haul out IND local station blueprints, put the platform in the middle, but instead went to compete for WMATA. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 14:13:08 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 12:43:13 2017. Nope. IRT went to 10 expresses during rush hours. Locals were 8 cars long. These were Dual Contract improvements.The IND was pretty much 10 car during rush hours. The only short trains were on the Els. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 14:34:50 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sun Mar 5 12:42:26 2017. Please note that in the 1930's the trains of the IRT and the BMT were shorter than they are now.The rush hour IRT expresses were 10 cars long. The locals were 7 to 8 cars long. The BMT obviously maxed out at 536 feet. However, their interiors were better designed for holding more passengers without increasing dwell time. Also, the articulated D-types had more useful interior room. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 15:30:35 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 14:13:08 2017. I thought the CC was 8 cars, the BB was 6 cars ? |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 5 15:31:34 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 06:35:42 2017. Why don't you answer his question? |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 5 15:33:52 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 14:34:50 2017. Weren't the W. Side IRT locals 5 cars long? |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by metrolinecoach111 on Sun Mar 5 16:24:10 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 4 21:39:04 2017. Not sure if you've been to the Upper East Side recently, but there is no fewer than 10 new high rise buildings/developments currently being planned or built in the area around the new SAS stations. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 16:43:20 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by metrolinecoach111 on Sun Mar 5 16:24:10 2017. That is what rapid transit does. Subways do it better then els. |
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| (1429124) | |
Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 5 17:06:45 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 16:43:20 2017. Here in metro Denver, lofts have sprung up near light rail stations. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by R30a on Sun Mar 5 21:19:40 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 14:13:08 2017. IRT did not get full length local platforms until the late 1940s on the east side (1962 northbound south of 14th) and the late 1950s on the west side |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 5 21:39:42 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Mar 5 17:06:45 2017. Any new build near the new Commuter Rail stations? The only "residents" I saw near 40th last I was there (weekend of the B opening) were a few prarie dogs... |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 22:03:12 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by R30a on Sun Mar 5 21:19:40 2017. They used two conductors on 10 car trains. This permitted them to have 10 car expresses to stop at shorter platforms. One, two or three end cars would not platform at shorter platforms. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 5 23:23:17 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:20:39 2017. 😂!Yes! Sage truth! |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Mar 5 23:27:34 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:20:39 2017. 😂!Yes! Sage truth! Exactly why I said Phase 3 should jave been built First for the most bang for yhe buck. At least,with phase 3,SAS could have been a Through service like most other trunk routes instead of a dead end. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Mar 6 00:25:47 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 5 15:33:52 2017. Nope - IRT Local trains were originally SIX cars long.Both of the original non-extended platforms for the South Ferry loop station, and the 145th Street & Lenox Avenue station were for SIX (6) car length trains! Both of these stations handled the local trains of the west-side IRT line. The basic reason why only FIVE cars open their doors at those stations has to do with the configuration of 10-car trains, and at the South Ferry outer loop station the addition of platform extenders. At the South Ferry loop station look closely at where the front of the train is located with the home-ball signal, and where the back of the train is located. The station was originally built for SIX cars. Yes, the type of subway cars originally used are different from the ones used today. How to tell at a glance the original lengths of the trains. Look at the original tile work on the oldest stations and where the "newer" tile features start. Mike |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Mar 6 01:18:28 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 11:20:39 2017. IIRC it was the residents of East Harlem who advocated strongly for phase 2 to be their section; at one point they were even trying to force it to be built along with phase 1. While I agree with you that it would raise the income level needed to move into those neighborhoods, it's not like this is against their wishes... |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Mar 6 05:27:19 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 5 21:39:42 2017. Not yet, although development has been taking place at Gateway Park near the 40th and Airport Blvd. station. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Mar 6 13:13:01 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 06:35:42 2017. LOL! I doubt many of my hypothetical Q riders entering Lex/63 are heading uptown - it's only 3 stops. They'd be better off walking or taking the bus. To get a more accurate result, I wonder if the MTA has done a head count of downtown Q riders boarding at Lex/63. That would include Q riders transferring from the Manhattan bound F. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 6 13:48:08 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 5 16:43:20 2017. Like in Chicago? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 6 13:55:33 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jan 22 16:03:06 2017. That's what I say. Also, with expansion northward, there will be more use. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Mar 6 13:59:02 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 6 13:48:08 2017. Historians will note that in the late 90s CTA had a particulary nasty run of powdery snow infiltrating traction motors. Don't have much of that in tunnels. Conversely not much flooding of elevated structures. As a rider, the ugliest is the Chicago pioneered expressway median where you get auto smog and noise while waiting for a train.I can hear the elevated BART trains ten blocks from my house when much else is quiet. When I briefly lived in the Germantown neighborhood of Philly, the RDG Chestnut Hill line literally ran at the end of the back yard. I of course enjoyed that. |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by coneyisl on Mon Mar 6 14:06:52 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Mar 5 21:39:42 2017. Off the top of my head I can think of at least one large residential development. New apartments have been built next to the Olde Town Arvada station on the G Line (which will open if they ever get the gate software working on the A line). There's plenty of development going on system-wide along Denver commuter rail if you include lines that are still under construction although it always difficult to tell whether the demand adjacent to the stops is caused by the train or the supply was already there and the density of the construction around the station happened because the land was available. Of course, there is always the very real question regarding which came first, the developer or the rail?Much of the A Line was built through prairie land (and farms) as well as along industrial right-of-way adjacent to existing freight lines. Not too much demand out in the prairie yet but based on the construction that has taken place in the 20+ years since the completion of the airport it is fair to say that barring any significant economic downturn (or prolonged drought) that the area will fill in quite nicely. DIA is the largest airport (by area) in the country and as a result it still has the capacity to double in size from a service standpoint. The amount of developable land outside of the airport boundaries is just as impressive. That being said, the prairie dogs are quite safe for now. Perhaps the most interesting (and somewhat sad) example of residential building in anticipation of rail service is the rather large development built in Broomfield next to the Northwest Parkway. Apartments, business buildings, hotel, all built adjacent to a rail stop planned for the Northwest Line. Why is it sad? It's sad because the location of the development was based on a rail line that wasn't, and may never be built. Northwest Rail was originally part of FastTracks but was eliminated by RTD due to lack of funds (long story). I hope this development hangs on.....I think it will. At least it's a relatively short walk to the Park and Ride stop on Highway 36, (but not too much fun on a cold and windy day). Lots of short Uber rides..... |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 6 15:59:09 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Mon Mar 6 00:25:47 2017. Thanks! |
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Re: SAS Use This Week |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Mon Mar 6 20:01:35 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Mar 5 06:35:42 2017. Would it be fair, then to subtract off the cost of the Third Avenue entrance to Lex and some of the renovation costs of Lex when analyzing the costs and benefits as they were, arguably, optional in the context of SAS? |
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