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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 18 15:28:04 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 08:14:49 2017. Looks like its not exactly meeting project expectations. Not by half it seems.Perhaps if the MTA had built all 6 stations around the same time ? In Any case,the First segment should have been built from 63rd st South to Houston.. More riders...more transfers...connection to the CBD,Grand Central and other important Midtown destinations. Plus,a connection to the Chrystie st subway for Brooklyn would have ensured even distribution as a through service to Queens via Queens Blvd line...or a new station in Sunnyside. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 18 15:46:13 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by chud1 on Sat Feb 18 15:12:08 2017. Add 18 more to that count figuring the 179 cars in....plus the remaining 110B odd balls. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 16:46:04 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 13:14:26 2017. See: New York Affairs - The Transit Issue - Volume 7, November 1982 - Page 21 - "Trends In Transit Ridership" by James J. Barry and Ronald C. Reid."Comfort is another component of service quality. Air-conditioned cars can help make crowded trains more tolerable. At close of 1981, 35 percent of the 6,800 car fleet was air-conditioned. This is more then double the percentage of air-conditioned cars available in 1973 (1,400 more cars equipped with air-conditioning). However its value is partly offset by a large number of broken air-conditioning units and the fact that many of the air-conditioned R-46 cars have been and still are out of service." --- I have other fact books that I could check and confirm, but I very much remember a fact sheet put out by the MTA noting the 7,000 car fleet. Mike |
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Posted by Far Rockaway A Train on Sat Feb 18 18:39:58 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 16:46:04 2017. I remember the summer of 1982 very well. The A train, was my home route. Before the Spring of 1982 the A operated R40 slants and R44s so three quarters of the A train's fleet was air conditioned. Then in the Spring, the TA pulled all of the R44s out of service and replaced them with the R38s. Then threw in a couple of R10s for good measure. I was glad we got the R38s, but that was one hell of a hot summer. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 18 18:57:05 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Far Rockaway A Train on Sat Feb 18 18:39:58 2017. Yeah.The 38s moved from the B to the A,and stayed there for years. The Only Eastern division line they ever ran in service along is the M Brighton Local,and that was only just to make service. The 44s were dogs from day one...even after rehab,they were only a little better. St Louis Car should have seen that coming with the first 20 rejected cars,but the MTA BIG WIGS wanted to show everyone what wonderful progress they were making. Yeah...right. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 19:13:50 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 13:14:26 2017. "They have always had approximately 6600 cars."Not True. ---- Under The Sidewalks Of New York - Second Edition, 1995 By Brian J. Cudahy, Epilogue, Page 171 See Chart - "Path, SIRT, and NYCTA - A Comparison PATH SIRT PATH & SIRT NYCTA Route Miles 13.79 14.29 28.8 247.31 Stations 13 22 35 469 Rapid Transit Cars 342 54 406 6,108 Annual Passengers, 1990 (millions) 56 8 62 1,028 ----- Mike |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 19:14:38 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 19:13:50 2017. Sorry, it looked so much better "spaced out" as ASCII text.Mike |
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Posted by Far Rockaway A Train on Sat Feb 18 19:21:37 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 18 18:57:05 2017. The 38s moved from the B to the A,and stayed there for years.Actually, the R38s moved from the D to the A. The D got them from the AA/B around January 1981 when the TA put the R10s back on the CC, the R46s on the E/F and the entire R44 fleet on the A. but the MTA BIG WIGS wanted to show everyone what wonderful progress they were making. Yeah...right. LOL |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Feb 18 19:33:54 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 19:13:50 2017. 6108 is not approx. 6000? |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Feb 18 19:34:27 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by italianstallion on Sat Feb 18 19:33:54 2017. Whoops - misread 6600 as 6000!!! |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 19:51:44 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 19:13:50 2017. From the NYC Board Of Transportation's 1949 3 1/2 year report, page 89,6,868 cars, which included included 5808 subway (steel) cars and 1060 elevated (wooden) cars. It just depends where one looks. :=) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 20:05:49 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 10:57:46 2017. There has been a reduction in the number of spares that NYCT carries. It's one of the few metrics where NYCT operation excels compared to other heavy rail systems.It used to be 25% (reaching even 30% back in the early 1980's. Improved maintenance has allowed them to reduce this to 19%, according to their explanation. The current NTD Transit Profiles Report (2015) shows an even further decline to 1.5%. It shows there are only 5365 car available for a maximum service that required 5282 cars. I question these figures. The 2011 report stated they had 6282 cars available for a peak service requirement of 5240 cars and a 20% spares ratio. (6282/5240 = 1.2) |
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Posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sat Feb 18 22:23:24 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 19:13:50 2017. I don't want to sound like a party pooper but I'd like to know what all the noise there is about the Second Avenue Subway. I know it was a long time in coming and maybe that is why so many of you are enthused about it, but it seems to be a very dull ride, almost in a straight line and all in one borough and all underground. What's the excitement in a line that doesn't really have any variety at all? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 23:01:38 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sat Feb 18 22:23:24 2017. Subway basics - the biggest building period for the subways was generally starts 1900 to the 1940's. Basically whatever was not built in that period of time was either not going to be built or would take a very, very long time.This does not include consolidations, conversions, mergers, the usage of previously built but not completed sections or the elimination of the purely elevated trackage in Manhattan, the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens. Jump to the mid-1960's with additions to the Sixth Avenue line, the Chrystie Street project, conversions to the Manhattan Bridge, and the plans for the Second Avenue subway. The Second Avenue Subway project is "big" with its related Queens Super-Express plans and extensions to southeastern Queens, new subway tunnel to Manhattan, and possible extension to the Bronx. That is until the mid-1970's fiscal crisis, and the major problems with the subways of that era. Leaving bits and pieces of the whole project, a one time "tunnel to nowhere", and the Archer Avenue segment that was to extend further into southern-eastern Queens. Within the 2000's - three major BRAND NEW SUBWAY ADDITIONS: the extension of the #7 train to Hudson Yards & the Jacob Javits Center; the building of the new #1 South Ferry Terminal Station & Plaza (along with a new Ferry Terminal building); and three BRAND NEW SUBWAY STATIONS UNDER SECOND AVENUE, and the renovated completion of a fourth station. Second Avenue has not had a working subway line "under it" or "over" since the 1940's! So yes, it is a big deal. Add in the brand new "East-Side Access" project still under construction - all new trackage. So yes, it is a big deal. Mike |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Feb 18 23:04:11 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sat Feb 18 22:23:24 2017. Well, it does get people from one place to another, and it does relieve overcrowding on the 4, 5, and 6, so in my world that is cause for at least mild excitement. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 23:37:09 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sat Feb 18 22:23:24 2017. You're not a party pooper. You're speaking truth to power. That's a dangerous undertaking in these times.It was an extravagance that diverted scarce capital funds to those who were already adequately served. Service levels were reduced to create crowded conditions. Part of the justification was the number of users. That's why I've been posting the turnstile counts. It hasn't reached its projected 200K. It's stagnating at around 120K. It's a figure that Mr. AlM nailed before it opened. He's suggested that beginning of the Spring term at Hunter College would increase these numbers. It hasn't so far. I've vowed to keep posting until the end of this month. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 19 00:33:39 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 23:01:38 2017. Indeed, despite a couple $$ worth of subway for $20 spent, stupidly deep stations, and other deliberate forgetting of lessons learned on the original subway, it still is progress. Most of my generation, I was living in New York when we passed the second bond issue, won't live to see a REAL SAS the length of Manhattan let alone new routes to the other boros, so this is all we get to cheer about. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:10:40 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 18 15:28:02 2017. If the SAS were built south from 63 St, then what would be the north terminal? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:19:19 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 19:51:44 2017. Despite some of the NYCTS’s new lines, in 1949, there were more rapid transit lines than at present and that’s taking into account the Rockaway lines. We had several elevated lines that were demolished and never replaced, the 3 Av in Manhattan and the Lex, Myrtle and Fulton St in Bkln although the Fulton St el was essentially replaced by the IND Fulton St subway and its connection to the outer portion of the Fulton el. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:25:50 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 23:37:09 2017. What probably should have been taken into consideration for comparison purposes is the turnstile counts at the Lex Av stations between 96 St and 59 St to see if there is a matching ridership decrease to the passengers at the corresponding SAS stations. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 19 03:15:31 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 19 00:33:39 2017. Shallow stations are overrated. People who can't climb stairs still have to use elevators and escalators. I've also found that the SAS escalators are reasonably fast. Also fast are the elevators at the Third Avenue end of Lex-63rd. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 19 05:27:03 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:25:50 2017. Actually, you want to do an hourly before/after comparison. According to the MTA, the Lex isn't maxed out 24/7. It's only during the peak hour(s) they claim they cannot operate more trains.Unfortunately, the published turnstile counts are for 4 hour periods. So without a FOIL request, it's not possible to prove or disprove the assertion that the SAS was necessary to reduce crowding on the Lex. I will be showing the year-to-year turnstile counts for the Lex, at the end of this month. I'll break it down into the 4 hour counts. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 19 08:29:35 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sat Feb 18 22:23:24 2017. I know it was a long time in coming Fred: That's an understatement. They started building the thing two weeks after the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. I like the new subway. Its open and airy and affords a nice across the platform transfer at 63rd Street. It also has taken some pressure off the Lexington Avenue Line which has been overcrowded since they tore down the 3rd Avenue El. As a side benefit we got the "W" train back as well as the "N" running express on Broadway. My first subway opening was Chrystie Street and is was a lot of fun, but that was fifty years ago. This was a great treat for a lot of the younger guys. I've been reading the weather reports from CA. Please stay dry. Larry, RedbirdR33 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 19 08:34:42 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 23:37:09 2017. Stephen: You're very knowledgeable in these matters. Whatever happen to the monies from the bond issue in the early 50's? It was approved by the voters and was supposed to be used to fund the 2nd Avenue Subway. At least we got the R-11's. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Feb 19 09:31:53 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 19 08:29:35 2017. Hey Fred, don't forget: your favorite line is undergoing an extreme makeover. They're finally renovating all the Sea Beach stations. You won't recognize them the next time you're there.:) |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Feb 19 09:32:57 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 19 08:34:42 2017. IINM it was diverted to keep the rest of the system from falling apart. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:18:17 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 20:05:49 2017. No doubt today the spare ratio has to be lower than ever before with the Second Ave. subway now opened. An no R179's in service yet. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:21:58 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sat Feb 18 22:23:24 2017. Not exciting from a railfan prospective, but it does serve the East side. Can it be better? Certainly. It will be more useful once it reaches 125. But it's better than nothing. The ridership is good. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 19 10:23:14 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 02:10:40 2017. "If the SAS were built south from 63 St, then what would be the north terminal?"Right now the north terminal would be 96th Street-Second Avenue, unless and until the 125th Street-Lexington Avenue/Park Avenue station complex is built. Then both the N and the T would terminate at the 125th Street-Lexington Avenue/Park Avenue station. Mike |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 10:40:41 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 19 03:15:31 2017. Ehh, I disagree on the Third Ave end elevators. They're fast once you're on them, but there's a significant wait (at least leaving the platform).That said 96st, the future 106st and hopefully the future 116st are all shallow. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 19 11:21:00 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:18:17 2017. The reduction in number of cars available for maximum service went down to the 5300 range in the 2012 NTD profile report. Someone will have to verify if this was before they started reefing the post-redbird fleet. |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Feb 19 11:25:20 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 10:57:46 2017. It was common to park OOS trains on the express tracks between rush hours. Vandalism and the "golden" age of graffiti had the TA rethink this policy and an important result was the expansion of train yards. Look at the size of some train yards; All tracks in Coney Island yard west of the loop are new. Stillwell Yard is more than doubled in size. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:54:02 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by SLRT on Sun Feb 19 11:25:20 2017. Where did they get the acreage to double its size ? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Feb 19 12:48:03 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:54:02 2017. There was a lot of unused TA owned land in the triangle of the West End and Sea Beach rights-of-way and the West End yard connector on the north. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 19 13:36:39 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 10:57:46 2017. It was done regularly on the Astoria line. Also the Brighton line. |
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Posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:21:03 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 18 23:01:38 2017. Thanks Mike for your missive. I can see it a little clearer now. I do know that there is no subway service in Eastern Queens or SE Brooklyn's flatlands either. I wonder if anything is potentially on tap there. |
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Posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:30:21 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 19 08:29:35 2017. Stay dry? Surely you jest Larry. It's been like a rain forest out here. We were supposed to get El Nino LAST winter and this year was supposed to be a dry one. Goes to show weather research and projections are still all over the map.Stephen mentioned all the plans that were sidetracked because of declining funds or some political infighting so I can understand why there are cheers for the SAS since one can say it's better than nothing. Still I would think that perhaps the MTA and powers-that-be can start thinking of way to extend the subway system to eastern Queens and into SE Brooklyn. Of course what you said about it keeps the "N" train running express in Manhattan. Good enough for me---and never let it go into that Montague Tunnel rat hole ever again. Always good hearing from you Larry. |
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Posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:30:21 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 19 08:29:35 2017. Stay dry? Surely you jest Larry. It's been like a rain forest out here. We were supposed to get El Nino LAST winter and this year was supposed to be a dry one. Goes to show weather research and projections are still all over the map.Stephen mentioned all the plans that were sidetracked because of declining funds or some political infighting so I can understand why there are cheers for the SAS since one can say it's better than nothing. Still I would think that perhaps the MTA and powers-that-be can start thinking of way to extend the subway system to eastern Queens and into SE Brooklyn. Of course what you said about it keeps the "N" train running express in Manhattan. Good enough for me---and never let it go into that Montague Tunnel rat hole ever again. Always good hearing from you Larry. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 19 16:30:59 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:21:03 2017. I do know that there is no subway service in Eastern Queens or SE Brooklyn's flatlands either. I wonder if anything is potentially on tap there.Not while the MTA spends what little capital money that's available on costly and unnecessary projects. Among these are CBTC, the Fulton Hub, South Ferry and the SAS. |
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Posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:32:19 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Feb 19 09:31:53 2017. Well Steve, my train is running express in Manhattan so that's one in my column, but it will be swell seeing renovated stations in the open cut when I ride the Sea Beach again. Maybe this year or next, I need to come to New York to get my subway fix. |
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Posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:34:08 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 10:21:58 2017. Thanks Bill. I've been getting some real insights from direct replies to me from my colleagues here as well as those sent to other posters. Yes, it IS better than nothing, but I still feel that there is a lot more expanding that they can do. Hopefully in time it will. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 19 16:43:10 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:30:21 2017. It's been going thru the Montague the past 2 weekends due to a big GO. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 17:26:11 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 19 10:23:14 2017. I understand that but you seemed to indicate that the portion to 96 St should not have been built and the south portion built instead. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 17:29:43 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 19 05:27:03 2017. So I assume that would mean that once the turnstile coins are broken down into the appropriate 4 hour periods, we should be able to make an accurate assessment. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 19 17:32:34 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 17:26:11 2017. LOL! |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 19 17:55:10 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 17:26:11 2017. "I understand that but you seemed to indicate that the portion to 96 St should not have been built and the south portion built instead."Maybe someone else said that, but I do not believe that I ever said that. I do not know what would make you think that I said something remotely like that. I'm in favor of building the entire Second Avenue Subway, from 125th Street to South Ferry! Along with the Queens extensions into south-eastern Queens, and the Queens Super-Express, I'd even throw in the Bronx segments except for the part about "re-capturing the parts of the IRT subways." I just don't believe that changing a line from IRT to IND/BMT suddenly by magic makes it better. I just don't. Again, I've always been in favor of building the whole Second Avenue Subway! While others freak out about the costs, and the ridership figures, etc. I don't. Yes, I'd like more reasonable cost figures, and less abuse/waste, etc. - but on the whole I'm favor of the entire project. I've held that position since I read about the plans for the Second Avenue Subway in the NYC Master Plan of 1968 in high school decades ago. That's the only "master plan" for the entire city that was ever produced by NYC's City Planning Department. The large copies of the document used to be in city libraries. As an urban planner these and other documents have fascinated and inspired me. As my instructors said decades ago, "Make No Small Plans." Mike |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 19 18:01:54 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 19 16:30:59 2017. It used to be that operating expenses involving maintenance were borne by the NYCTA and capital improvements such as new rolling stock signal equipment and new rapid transit lines were the responsibility of the city. Has that actually changed or is it merely a smokescreen to pass the buck of responsibility? |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Feb 19 18:43:08 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 18 20:05:49 2017. I question those figures too. 1.5% seems like an awfully low spare ratio, especially with R-42's still roaming around the system. Could they have found a better brand of duct tape? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 19 18:56:09 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 19 03:15:31 2017. do the stop watch comparison betwee for example 33rd Park on the Lex and any of the three new SAS stations. Depart sidewalk, arrive at platform and get back to me. I can climb stairs although if faced with several flights, I will elect escalators/elevators. Wasn't always thus; 72 and overweight, probably looking at bionic knees within a decade. That said, the issue still is sidewalk to platform or reverse. RAPID transit! |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Feb 19 19:06:56 2017, in response to Re: SAS Use This Week, posted by #4 Sea Beach Fred on Sun Feb 19 16:30:21 2017. Well Fred, sorry to rain on your parade (I couldn't resist!), but the N still runs via tunnel during the late hours. |
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