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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 13:49:59 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 11:48:50 2016. You are grasping at even tinier straws now. Bye, Felicia. |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 14:10:26 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by AlM on Wed May 4 11:18:05 2016. The MTA presentation material posted here in the last few weeks about adding entrances to 1st and Bedford. It made the case for doing it while the tunnel was closed for safety and logistical reasons. That prompted the worries about no (L) service between Lorimer and Myrtle or Bway Jct as the only full crossover on the western section is at Bedford. If Bedford can be used, at least those who currently use it for a Manhattan connection won't be screwed that badly. OTOH, if the (L) can't get to Lorimer, it will be rather chaotic getting everyone to the el. |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed May 4 14:16:17 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 13:49:59 2016.  lol |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by AlM on Wed May 4 14:46:31 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 14:10:26 2016. It made the case for doing it while the tunnel was closed for safety and logistical reasons.Closed to passenger traffic, yes. Do you have a source that says the tunnel would be continuously closed to work trains for such a long period of time that a 14th Street service would not work? I haven't seen any reference to such information. |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 14:47:45 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 13:49:59 2016. All well and good, but if gridlock happens and the 14th Street line is closed....... |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 14:53:42 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 09:06:21 2016. Re-reading your earlier post, these have been my points for a while now and they developed over time. CBTC is a BIG factor into why I would do the split. |
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| (1394563) | |
Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 14:58:26 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by AlM on Wed May 4 12:19:49 2016. To an area that already is slow to begin with (Union Square), it can be just enough extra to do that, especially if you have those who will drive in because it makes it too inconvenient to take the (G) to Court Square, Broadway or Atlantic-Barclays from Lorimer to go that route because of the (L) shutdown added to that (which there will be some).The buses themselves might not cause gridlock, but it adds to the problem. |
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Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by AlM on Wed May 4 15:02:29 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 14:58:26 2016. The L shutdown won't add to traffic on 14th Street. It will add to traffic on Delancey. |
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Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed May 4 15:05:26 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by AlM on Wed May 4 15:02:29 2016. If they add a lot of M14 service, it will. |
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| (1394569) | |
Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by AlM on Wed May 4 15:14:19 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Wed May 4 15:05:26 2016. 10-20 buses distributed over 1.5 miles of 14th street, even added to existing traffic, do not make gridlock.I still think they will try to run the L in Manhattan. But to save money, not because they worry about traffic. |
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| (1394570) | |
Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed May 4 15:30:22 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by AlM on Wed May 4 15:14:19 2016. We don't know the details well enough to what extent either tunnel could handle trains during the outage. A loco and a few gondola cars, maybe. |
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| (1394571) | |
Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed May 4 15:42:22 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue May 3 19:49:57 2016. I agree with the points that you have made.In order to do what you're proposing does not "REQUIRE" the "tearing up" of the subway map for transit riders at places very far distant place as Wallyhorse proposes. In order to do what you're proposing responds to the NEEDS of the riders that ordinarily would use the L-train in Brooklyn, and for trips to/from Manhattan. In addition to working with the arrangement of subway routes that subway riders have come to expect for years. For a regular J or M train rider the pathway of those lines is easy to predict, and therefore explain-able to others, especially habitual L-train riders having to use those lines. Heavily re-arranging train routes all over the place, etc. for some "better purpose" - can easily confuse transit riders - on top of issues with shuttle bus transfers, etc. Wallyhorse in his proposals does not seem to put first the idea that he's really, really trying to help L-train riders. He spends most of his recent time arguing about how upper Eastside riders would benefit from his ideas! Mike |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 4 17:41:35 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Wed May 4 12:21:56 2016. The problem is that CBTC work is being done by an outside contractor and the time frames for completion of the work are spelled out in the contract. In many cases there are penalties against the contractor for delays in completing the work, so conversely, the contractor could very well penalize the MTA for delaying its work as well. |
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Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 4 17:52:40 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Tue May 3 19:26:39 2016. They might very well have lost since there are several areas of NYC that have only local service and those people don’t complain. All the MTA would have to do is cite those instances and that would have been the end of it. |
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| (1394591) | |
Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 4 18:56:39 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Wed May 4 09:06:21 2016. Any judge that may have a personal grudge against the MTA could be removed if it it known. However there are many politicians who have such prejudices and keep them secret so any personal bias on the part of a judge may not be known until long after a decision is rendered. |
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| (1394597) | |
Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 20:53:11 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by randyo on Wed May 4 17:41:35 2016. Exactly!That was something that I was considering when I did the split M/T, knowing the (M) would be unable to use QB on weekends and if it went to the UES so Broadway-Brooklyn riders got 6th Avenue service, those on the UES would likely insist on it also being there weekdays and the UES is one area that has heavy political clout. |
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| (1394598) | |
Split M/T during (L) train closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 21:02:43 2016, in response to Re: (M) train during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 4 15:42:22 2016. Actually, it's a given (L) riders would benefit the way I would do it because the BIG thing is there would be full-time 6th Avenue service from the (M) most can transfer to at Myrtle-Wyckoff or the (G) at Broadway in this scenario.Mine factors in CBTC work on Queens Boulevard that likely can't be stopped during the (L) shutdown that forces the (M) to most likely 96th/2nd on most weekends because that is the closest station you will be able to turn the (M) after running up 6th Avenue on weekends without potentially interfering with other lines (with QB unavailable to the (M) because of the (E) (F) and (R) all running on the same track in at least one direction most weekends). Given what politics are, those on the Upper East Side, who have considerable political clout likely would want the (M) to run there at all times so they have a 6th Avenue option on weekdays and more importantly double service on weekends and late nights in the most densely populated area of the country. That was why I came up with the M/T split to placate those on the UES while still serving the real purpose, getting additional service on 6th Avenue for displaced (L) riders (with in this case, the added bonus of being able to stay on and continue to the UES and not switch to the (6) if going there). |
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| (1394599) | |
Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed May 4 21:06:45 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 20:53:11 2016. We run service where there is demand, not where this is political clout, and the UES will not need anything besides the Q. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 12:54:33 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Wed May 4 21:06:45 2016. And I think that will be needed anyway because I think the (Q) will see much heavier ridership than many think between those tired of taking the (6) and those who live east of 1st Avenue (72nd and 86th Street stations) in particular. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 12:57:54 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 12:54:33 2016. "Tired of taking the 6" will have no impact for anyone headed down the east side or to Wall Street, which is most of them, for which the SAS is completely useless.The SAS will be a huge disappointment. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 13:15:36 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 12:57:54 2016. But most as you know work in Midtown nowadays, and I suspect many will opt to take the (Q) to Times Square and switch there to the (S) or (7) is their offices are on either extreme end of Grand Central (Madison Avenue or 3rd Avenue exit) or 5th Avenue (on the (7) if their offices are in that area. Add in the (T) and such riders can actually have a one-seat ride if they work on 6th Avenue.Those who work on Wall Street can take the (Q) to Union Square and switch there to either the (R) directly across the platform or the 4/5 there which by Union Square are far less crowded by that point. They can also take the (Q) to Canal and especially at the front of the train (downtown) switch there to the (J)/(Z) that can take them directly to the NYSE at Broad Street. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 13:27:27 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 13:15:36 2016. The SAS will get the current 59th Street transfers to the BMT. That is about it.If they are headed to the east side, which includes Madison Avenue, they will stay on the east side and not take detours via Times Square. Nobody is going to take the Q to sweat out the pokey W and R at 14th Street to get to Wall Street. Canal Street is not a same platform transfer for the BMT for the Bway Local, the Bway Express, or Nassau Street. The Lex leaves you a lot closer to more offices in the Financial district than the BMT does. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by AlM on Thu May 5 13:33:13 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 13:27:27 2016. If I lived at 86th and 3rd and worked on Water Street somewhere, I would take the Q to the J/Z. Do you have any idea what Lex/86th is like? |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 13:40:23 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by AlM on Thu May 5 13:33:13 2016. Yes I do. People wait for 4 or 5 train to go by.Now factor in a Q that does not run as often, with slower trip time, and a clumsy transfer to the J, and you are no better off. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 5 17:23:42 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 13:40:23 2016. The Q may not run as often but with trains originating (at least for now) on the UES passengers will be getting a relatively empty train and probably even get a seat which is not the case with getting on any of get Lex service already packed with passengers from get Bronx. That just might be worth the extra fe minutes if any over the Lex travel time. Also whatever additional service you are thinking about providing via 6 Av will not serve the people who want locations in lower Manhattan that would be served by the Q. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 5 18:13:04 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by randyo on Thu May 5 17:23:42 2016. TIme will tell if they choose trip time or comfort. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 19:09:59 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by AlM on Thu May 5 13:33:13 2016. I do.It's exactly why I can see many of them opting to take the (Q) to 14th Street and change across the platform to the (R) or (W) or walk over and get a much-less-crowded (4) or (5) train at Union Square OR take the (Q) to Canal (especially if at the front of the train) and take the J/Z to Broad Street, especially with the NYSE right there. Most though work in Midtown and especially if they say work on Madison/42nd might find the (Q) to the (S) a much more attractive option than the 4/5/6 to Grand Central, especially since the shuttle platforms let out close to the Madison Avenue exits there. And if they happen to be working at Hudson Yards (which will be a bigger factor in the years ahead), many may take the (Q) to the (7) as well. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 19:19:16 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by randyo on Thu May 5 17:23:42 2016. Yes, but I'm thinking more of MIDTOWN, where most people work nowadays anyway:That's where the (T) (even at only 5-7 TPH on weekdays) comes into play. Those working at Rockerfeller Plaza would have a relatively empty one-seat ride on a (T) going there and along 6th Avenue in particular and NYU students who live on the UES would have a one-seat ride to NYU at West 4th and Broadway-Lafayette. Especially in the dead of winter, I think those who work in Rockerfeller Plaza or ANY of the buildings that underground concourse of the 6 1/2 Avenue underground concourse that runs from 51st-54th between 6th Avenue 7th Avenues (and even some buildings that are as far west as 7th Avenue) would prefer to take the (T) and why I would start the split M/T (with what would actually be about a 40% increase in total combined service on 6th Avenue from Metropolitan) with the (M) remaining as it is now and the (T) running 5-7 TPH weekdays, 7-9 TPH weekends (when it would be the only line from Metropolitan) and 3-5 TPH late nights. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 20:39:10 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu May 5 19:19:16 2016. I meant start the split M/T with the return of the (M) to Metropolitan after that construction is finished in 2018, well ahead of the (L) shutdown.We will have a good idea by then if that is needed given we should have a decent amount of time with the (Q) by then. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri May 6 20:53:27 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by randyo on Thu May 5 17:23:42 2016. I don't know about other people, but I'm getting older. A seat starts to look appealing even if the trip takes a bit longer. Even having a few extra square centimeters of standing space is appealing. I have been known to take locals over expresses if it's more comfortable. Finally, IND/BMT cars are roomier than IRT cars. The Q will have lots going for it over the 4/5/6. |
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Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 6 23:56:17 2016, in response to Re: Split M/T during (L) tunnel closure, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri May 6 20:53:27 2016. Exactly:I expect we will see a lot of that with those tired of being packed into already crush-loaded 4/5/6 trains (86th Street in particular) and even if it means a longer ride overall, given those looking for the financial district do have multiple switching options from the (Q) onto what would be considerably less crowded trains at Union Square or Canal Street in order to have a more comfortable ride as a whole. That's why I think we will far higher ridership on the (Q) to where it would be warranted to do the M/T split anyway with or without the (L) shutdown. |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat May 7 10:29:53 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed May 4 11:09:55 2016. In what universe do car drivers in Manhattan on 14th Street give a damn about the 14th Street subway?In what universe do car drivers FROM NEW JERSEY in Manhattan on 14th Street give a damn about the 14th Street subway? In what universe will POLITICIANS FROM NEW JERSEY give a damn about the 14th Street subway, which handles Manhattan and Brooklyn transit riders? ---------- Wallyhorse - have you been hitting the joy juice much too often, again? Mike |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat May 7 12:53:49 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Michael549 on Sat May 7 10:29:53 2016. In defense of the alternate universe, I will say that when I am driving places, I like the roads to be as free of other vehicles as possible. If subways and railroads will help get other drivers off the roads so that when I do drive it is a palatable alternative, I am all for subsidizing mass transit if necessary and doing whatever it takes to keep those other vehicles off the road.However, in this universe, I have to agree that most drivers don't give a hoot about the subway underneath a road, as long as it doesn't collapse underneath them. |
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Re: Differences and how things are factored in |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat May 7 14:42:11 2016, in response to Re: Differences and how things are factored in, posted by Michael549 on Sat May 7 10:29:53 2016. The point is, drivers don't give a damm.Politicians from New Jersey will care if driving restrictions in Manhattan have negative effects on their residents. |
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