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| Re: Tunnel stubs (751780) | |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 19:34:15 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by modelrider on Thu Sep 17 18:14:52 2009. Most likely a proposed subway route down Hudson Street or somethin'. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:03:00 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by modelrider on Thu Sep 17 18:14:52 2009. South of 14th Street on the SB 8th Ave local or express? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:04:16 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:03:00 2009. On the S/B local. |
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| (834795) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:11:04 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:04:16 2009. I'd have to take a look over there.The only open space I remember there was behind the stairway at the S/E of the platform. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:12:15 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:03:00 2009. Like I said, that big space south of the 14th Street station (on the S/B local side) was most likely built for a proposed line down Hudson Street and would of terminated somewhere in Downtown Manhattan. I haven't seen it in any of the IND Second System plans. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:18:26 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:12:15 2009. Is there anything like it on the N/B side? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:19:19 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:18:26 2009. Nope, which is very odd. It only exists on the S/B side. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:25:30 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:19:19 2009. If we can figure that out then we might know why there's a lower level at 42/8 S/B but not N/B. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 20:41:57 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 5 05:47:33 2009. The bellmouth was definately built for an never-built IND line. The only problem is we don't know where the line was supposed to go to. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:06:38 2009, in response to Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Tue Mar 3 18:49:05 2009. I can't believe that no one's pointed out the bellmouth on the local track just past the northbound platform at 145th St. on the 8th Avenue Line. Obviously, it was a provision to allow trains on the upper level to be sent to the Concourse Line. That seems pretty pointless; wonder why it was built . . . |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:08:02 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:06:38 2009. That one is not a bellmouth. It's just a open space. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:11:41 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:08:02 2009. While I currently don't have photos, it sure looks like a bellmouth to me (it even has a trackbed). |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:13:00 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:11:41 2009. I'm pretty sure it's not a bellmouth. It looks like the open space doesn't go too far. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:18:27 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:13:00 2009. Next time you're in the area, take a closer look.It extends about 50 feet from the edge of the platform, and is proportioned just right to accommodate a switch. I also don't see why a mere open space would have a trackbed. It also closely resembles the 63rd Drive/Rego Park bellmouth, sans emergency exit, of course. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:20:46 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:18:27 2009. I've seen it, and it doesn't have any trackbed on it. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:22:49 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:20:46 2009. As I said, look again. It's generally pretty full of debris, which might obscure the presence of the trackbed. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:25:27 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:22:49 2009. What debris? That area is dark. You can barely see it. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:30:38 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:25:27 2009. The debris of recent trackwork in the area has been discarded there. And as I said, take a really good look. Let your eyes get acclimated to the dark (should only take a couple minutes), and you'll clearly see a trackbed.I have a photo of the spot before stuff was dumped there, and you can clearly see the trackbed. Let me see if I can find it. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:34:17 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:30:38 2009. Yeah, let me see the pic, please. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:53:09 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:34:17 2009. I'm waiting! |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:56:48 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:53:09 2009. Be patient. :-) It's on a computer at home, which is a few hundred miles out of my way at the moment . . .I'll email it to you when I have it. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:57:53 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:56:48 2009. Ok. Just as long it's not lost! |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 22:51:30 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 21:53:09 2009. Give him a chance to find it! |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 23:14:29 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 22:51:30 2009. Ok! |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Sep 17 23:34:11 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:06:38 2009. That is just an open space due to that fact that the middle level at 145th Street is a four track line that at the northern end the A-train express tracks are about to start lowering, and that the Concourse tracks are about to start turning toward the Polo Grounds. In addition the Concourse line is a three-track line housed in a structure that also has to accomodate a four track line.Mike |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Sep 18 02:06:25 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by modelrider on Thu Sep 17 18:14:52 2009. Under the original "continuation" of the Dual Contracts plan..the 8th avenue subway was a planned BMT route with connections[track] to the new 14th st subway st that location.. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Fri Sep 18 09:49:35 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Edwards! on Fri Sep 18 02:06:25 2009. Interesting plan. Where did you get this info from? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Sep 18 10:26:18 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Thu Sep 17 20:25:30 2009. . |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Sep 18 10:33:16 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Thu Sep 17 21:06:38 2009. Over the years I have posted on it at least 10 times.looking at the 1929 proposal it shows the A was going to have a branch running to DA-BRONX also.afaik there is no tunnel stub on the manh.bound side. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Hart Bus on Fri Sep 18 11:49:54 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Tue Mar 3 22:06:30 2009. Isn't there a small tunnel just south of the City Hall Station, lower platform.On one of the MOD trips, several people tried to climb down to explore before being called back by the organizers. I believe that the tracks turn east and were supposed to go into a tunnel under the East River to Brooklyn that was never built. BTW - Good to see that the "tunnel rat" sprang for a new computer, unless he is going to his local library (smile!) |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Sep 18 12:03:54 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Hart Bus on Fri Sep 18 11:49:54 2009. I,m going to the local library. |
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| (835048) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Sep 18 12:43:14 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Hart Bus on Fri Sep 18 11:49:54 2009. Isn't there a small tunnel just south of the City Hall Station, lower platform.Yes. It's usually filled with water (Canal Street was aptly named, after all.) The tunnel roof steadily slopes down towards the floor until it becomes impossible to stand. I don't think there's anything cool under the water, although it's very possible some spawn of Nessie has taken residence there. :-) |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Sep 18 12:53:34 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Michael549 on Thu Sep 17 23:34:11 2009. I thought that too until I saw the trackbed. Were the space (trackbed notwithstanding) merely an artifact of mirroring the diverging lower level's footprint, why does it extend so far into the tunnel? Steve's post corroborates the hypothesis that the upper level was supposed to connect to the Concourse Line. |
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| (835054) | |
Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Sep 18 13:00:32 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Sep 18 10:33:16 2009. Interesting. I haven't been able to find any definitive provision on the southbound side either, although I suppose C1 could've risen between A1 and A3 just north of the station. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Sep 18 13:32:20 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Sep 18 12:53:34 2009. Let's look at this another way. The entire section north of the 135th Street station is the switches and flying junctions for the connection of the Concourse line and Washington Heights branch of the A, AA, B and (and now) C lines. In effect the easiest way to get an A-train to the Bronx is simply to follow the path of a D-train.So why build an additional trackway from the upper level that is beginning to turn away on St. Nicholas Avenue to the diverging Concourse line? This idea is even more puzzling especially when there isn't a provision for a similar south bound track. Here's what I think - the IND had money to spend, or money to burn. The architecture of the area, the streets and avenues, the trackpaths of the trains, the engineering to support the whole operation simply creates blank un-used spaces. Especially since there is no record of any plans of the IND having anything other than a Washington Heights Branch and a Concourse branch. While in other places in the IND there were "tunnel-stubs" to what would be turnoffs to other IND-Second System lines in a spaghetti-like configuration, I do not think that is the case here. Mike |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Sep 18 13:45:28 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Michael549 on Fri Sep 18 13:32:20 2009. Maybe the IND had these other bellmouths built for what would have been the IND Third System which would have started work roughly 20+ years after the Second System was announced in 1929. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 18 14:29:25 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Fri Sep 18 13:45:28 2009. From what I was told, the so called "bellmouth" N/O 145 St U/L on A-2 track is just a vagary of the construction in that area and was never intended for any expansion use. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 18 14:41:37 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Subterranean Railway on Fri Sep 18 12:43:14 2009. As I have mentioned before in several posts, as originally planned, the C/Hall L/L was supposed to contain the through tracks with the middle track used for short turns for trains from either direction and the upper level was supposed to have been a stub terminal. Thats the reason for the 2 middle tracks at Canal St. They were to be express tracks and Canal would have been a local stop like it was on the 2 nearby IRT subway lines. There was a space for a diamond Xover N/O the upper level station which is now used for the relay room for C/Hall tower. The reason for the track configuration at Canal was that the Manny B tracks were finished ahead of the Montague St tunnel and so the tracks that were intended for a cross Canal St subway were "temporarily" routed via the Bway Subway to allow 4 Ave service into midtown Manhattan. As is often the case with "temporary" realignments, the track configuration became permanent. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Fri Sep 18 15:18:37 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 18 14:41:37 2009. How long is the Canal Street stub tunnel anyway? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Fri Sep 18 16:29:08 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 18 14:29:25 2009. Maybe it was something that the then current Mayor Walker wanted so he or his friends could take some money for thenselves. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Fri Sep 18 17:06:23 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by daDouce Man on Fri Sep 18 16:29:08 2009. True. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Hart Bus on Fri Sep 18 18:37:37 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Sep 18 12:03:54 2009. Either you're a cheapskate or you're saving up for some large, extra long, diamond tipped (not you know who) drill bits, so we can get into 76th Street. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 18 23:33:03 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Fri Sep 18 15:18:37 2009. I'm not exactly sure but it can't be more than 100 ft at most and probably less than that. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by bigrene22 on Fri Sep 18 23:35:25 2009, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 18 23:33:03 2009. Ok, thanx. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Norwood205th on Thu Mar 17 17:55:47 2016, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by bigrene22 on Thu Sep 17 19:34:15 2009. How long do the tail tracks east of Norwood run? And do they curve at the end or stay straight? |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Ftgreeneg on Thu Mar 17 18:12:59 2016, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Norwood205th on Thu Mar 17 17:55:47 2016. After the switch both tail tracks are a little longer than train length. Not much to it. They stay straight. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by Norwood205th on Thu Mar 17 18:18:06 2016, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Ftgreeneg on Thu Mar 17 18:12:59 2016. That's what I thought. They don't seem nearly as long as the ones beyond 179th Street: I see them crawl into the stubs. |
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Re: Tunnel stubs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 17 18:19:05 2016, in response to Re: Tunnel stubs, posted by Norwood205th on Thu Mar 17 18:18:06 2016. Slight downgrade there, tracks end right at the curb of Webster Avenue. |
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