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| (1194649) | |
Barriers Needed |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012 I get it. Believe me I do. It would be prohibitively expensive to fully enclose the subway tracks with floor to ceiling barriers for the reasons everybody has mentioned. But with all the nuts around, something just has to be done.I was very impressed last year riding the Metro in Paris and on the #1 line, probably the oldest metro line in existance, they have put up fences between the platforms and the tracks. It would be nice for the gates on the fences to coincide where the doors are but not absolutely necessary. When the train arrives in the station, even if the doors don't match up, open the gates. When the train doors close, the passenges are required to step back to the other side of the fence before the doors close and the train leaves the station. It can be logistically figured out. It can be done. It has to be done before the next copy cat pushing off the platform occurs. Just too many nuts around. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Dec 28 06:02:44 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. They installed barriers on Line 1 in Paris because the line is being converted to ZPTO, which means the chance of a train stopping before it hits someone on the tracks is zero. I don't know if Paris has a problem with people falling on the tracks, being pushed on the tracks, or jumping in front of trains. |
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Re: Barriers Not Needed |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 06:28:02 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. So a few rare nuts translates to "too many"? Maybe don't elect politicians that put nuts out onto the streets by closing down mental institutions?France is about to pay for its profligacy, besides. That's a country that really has mortgaged its future. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 07:12:01 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. I feel barriers aren't going to change the mentality of folks in this country any time soon...Not to mention its going to be costly... |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Dec 28 07:22:19 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. Barriers would be costly and not needed.What is needed is for people to stay back from the platform edge, especially when a train is approaching. No need to lean over and lose your balance too. When in the subway and a train is approaching, I instinctively turn around and walk away to make sure no EDP is standing behind me. But New Yorkers are creatures of habit, so go figure. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 28 08:08:00 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. Passengers are "required" to step through the gates in the fence? What if someone doesn't? They get trapped at the platform edge. Doesn't sound like a good system. Does this really work in Paris? If they tried it here, I expect there would be many incidents of people getting trapped in there. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 08:12:47 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. Barriers will slow the trains down and reduce the service making the platforms more crowded. MTA is quickly settling on the 60' car with standard openings. The IRT is now fully standard in its doors, or maybe it is not. But you can start where you are. Make the Lex Exp 100% R142 and build a four foot high wall between tracks and platform, with openings for the doorways.But like LION says: It will slow the subways down and increase crowding. Idea: FAIL ROAR |
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| (1194678) | |
Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Dec 28 08:43:07 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 28 08:08:00 2012. At busy stations in Sao Paulo, they have railings on some platforms, but it might only be those with the Spanish solution, where you enter a queue of sorts to board for the train. As you can see here, it minimizes direct openings to the platform and eliminates a "straight approach" for lack of a better description to the platform edge. |
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| (1194679) | |
Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 08:53:08 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. There don't even need to be gates. Simply a low fence or railing with openings, like old SF or the 42st Shuttle at Times Sq. It will provide more areas on the platform safe from pushing / inadvertently falling in. Make the openings wider than the doorways so that T/Os still have stopping leeway. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by zac on Fri Dec 28 09:11:56 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. I thought the Paris barriers were FUGLY. They took an historic line and ruined the look of it. The few Parisians I know (2) think they are ugly too.The Parisien Metro authority forgot one important fact, and that's that central Paris is a museum of itself. Écartez-vous de la fermeture des portes, SVP |
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| (1194684) | |
Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:11:57 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. While your heart is in the right place, it's too costly and would be an operational PITA. What's needed is to reopen the asylums, cut the bleeding heart bullshit and start putting away people who shouldn't be out in society. Weither it's sicko teens who walk into elementary schools and start shooting or schizo bums pushing people in front of trains. |
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| (1194688) | |
Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:15:19 2012, in response to Mental Institutions Needed, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:11:57 2012. How about just making mental-health care more affordable, accessible, and less punitive, so people can be treated before their illnesses get so out-of-control? |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 09:17:26 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:15:19 2012. +1 |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:23:52 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 09:17:26 2012. (Waits for all the "bleeding-heart-librul" flamage) |
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| (1194693) | |
Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 09:28:40 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:23:52 2012. Waits for all the "bleeding-heart-librul" flamageSomething you know all and well that im not... I agree with your point though most definitely... |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 28 09:29:59 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Dec 28 08:43:07 2012. Is that the first stop? Or do exiting passengers use the door on the other side of the train? I think one or the other must be the case. Since most NYC subway stations don't have platforms on both sides of the train, that wouldn't work here. But there are those railings opposite the stairways on the bridge platform at Canal St.I thought the previous poster was talking about motorized gates that opened and closed, which is why I was concerned about people getting trapped on the wrong side of the gate. (There would have to be room between the gate and the train if the gates don't line up with the train doors.) If they have to have a fence that opens and closes, a vertical fence that rises up at the platform edge when a train departs and descends to the track level when the train arrives might work. |
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| (1194695) | |
Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:33:30 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:23:52 2012. Your wait is over :)I don't disagree with your fundamental premise, mind you, but the types of people who do things like this A) Don't know or want to recognize they are crazy and B) Even if they do, for various reasons, are against seeking help. The Colorado shooter wasn't a comatose bum and could easily have said "You know, I think I have a problem". Same with adam lanza. Outpaitent services are fine for most, but there truly are people who are dangerous to society. I will submit you are right we have not done ourselves any favors cutting mental health funding. |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:33:39 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:15:19 2012. What about potential threats who refuse to be treated voluntarily? |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:36:08 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:33:30 2012. Would you be in favor of indeterminate civil commitment and mandatory treatment for people identified as posing a significant threat to public safety? |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 09:44:51 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:33:39 2012. Then they will have to get dealt with, unfortunately this also falls on us the tax payers. |
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| (1194705) | |
Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 28 09:49:19 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. Wouldn't work.75' cars and 60' cars. Must have operational flexibility for reroutes. |
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| (1194708) | |
Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:51:32 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:36:08 2012. No. Give government that sort of power and you midas well piss on the Constitution. I do think the police should detain homeless as well as people believed to be acting in a genuinely sketchy manner. Once brought to the precient, they should be evaluated by a psychiatrist who then can determine the person's state of mind and then if deemed unsafe should take appropriate action.Remember, every knife cuts both ways. Do you want to live in a world where if say your neighbor has a beef with you he can just call the cops and say "Yeah, there's this guy Train Dude whose been mumbling and shuffling around saying he's gonna take an AK47 to Roosevelt Field Mall and get vengance" and just like that your life is ruined? |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 10:10:20 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:51:32 2012. So there you have it in a nut shell. Given that such action would run afoul of the Bill of Rights, how would you protect society from the thousands of "ticking time bombs" who are not homeless but who display anti-social tendencies in their daily lives?One other issue that has come up in the Newtown nightmare. Some geneticists are requesting to do a DNA study on the shooter hoping to find a marker that could help identify potentially violent people. Should the research be found to be valid, would you be in favor of mandatory genetic screening to identify such people? |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 10:18:56 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 10:10:20 2012. Some geneticists are requesting to do a DNA study on the shooter hoping to find a marker that could help identify potentially violent people. Should the research be found to be valid, would you be in favor of mandatory genetic screening to identify such people?That alone will open us another can of worms... |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 10:28:54 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:33:39 2012. People who are clearly a danger to themselves or others can be taken to the hospital by EMS and the NYPD without their consent. The police can take am EDP into "protective custody"--from themselves--and call EMS to have them brought in for treatment. It happens all the time. |
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| (1194718) | |
Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 10:40:43 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:51:32 2012. Actually, you might be surprised to know that this kind of thing happens every day. A woman was trying to break up with her boyfriend, and get him out of the way so she could get with her NEW boyfriend. So she called 911, and told the CRO that he (the old BF) was "acting irrationally, talking about shooting up a bodega, and killing himself". We got the call as an EDP, and once there, we HAD to take him to the hospital, per the protocol we must follow. (If we let him go, after being told he was unstable, and he then goes out and kills somebody, we'd lose our jobs AND our certification as EMTs, not to mention the gross-negligence lawsuits that would come our way.) So he gets upset, tries to tell us his girlfriend just wants him out--but getting agitated isn't gonna help him. We took him to the hospital with the cops, and as I turned the corner off the block, I noticed a guy sitting in an idling U-Haul on the adjacent street.A couple of weeks later, we were parked sitting 89, and the guy we'd transported to the psych ER knocks on my window. He had no hard feelings towards us, and he told me the rest of the story: As soon as her NEW boyfriend saw our ambulance depart, the new guy and his (now ex) girlfriend got right to work. When he got out of the hospital three days later and returned home, he found that the new BF and his ex-GF had loaded up that U-Haul with every item they could carry. He had to hand it to them--it was well-planned, and well-played. They got him but good. If someone calls you into 911 as an EDP, you are done. Believe that. |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 10:56:53 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:36:08 2012. Hitler tried that. So did Stalin. Works real good too. But maybe they come for you! |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 10:58:53 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 10:18:56 2012. The worms crawl in.The worms crawl out. They crawl into your stomach and out of your snout. |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 11:03:24 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 10:58:53 2012. It is what it is. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Dec 28 12:27:42 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Dec 28 06:02:44 2012. Actually the RUBIN system in Nuremburg uses electronic sensors to detect intrusions into the track area and bring the ZPTO U3 trains to a stop. And of course Vancouver's Skytrain manages ZPTO operations despite having no platform edge doors or comprehensive intrusion detection systems. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Dec 28 12:33:36 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 28 09:49:19 2012. This is the most repeated fallacy regarding platform edge doors around here, but there are existing barrier designs which are capable of arranging the openings on the fly for a variety of different rolling stock with differing door arrangements. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 12:43:46 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by WillD on Fri Dec 28 12:33:36 2012. This is true, but only democrats have unlimited taxing and fare raising powers to pay for all of this innovation. Sure it is all nice, it is also all very expensive. Adaptive door locations are not necessary since the fleet will be 100% R160 types by the time anything could be built system wide anyway.Downtown stations would need such gates on all platforms. Outlying stations only need them on the Manhattan bound platforms, for that is where people wait for trains. They do not wait in large numbers for other outbound trains. Tomorrow (if you wanted to) you could put all of the 75' cars in the 8th Avenue line and make Bway and 6th Ave exclusively 60' cars, and start building the barriers there. By the time you get to 8th Avenue, the 75s will be long gone. LION says put up plain pipe built fences leaving the doorways open. That will be a sufficient start. More can be built after NYCT wins the lottery. ROAR |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 28 13:20:50 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Train Dude on Fri Dec 28 09:36:08 2012. Such a process already exists.The obvious issue is that most of the mass murderers and subway pushers didn't meet the criteria for being locked up beforehand, because the process has a burden of proof associated with it (as it must, under the Constitution). |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 13:34:38 2012, in response to Mental Institutions Needed, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:11:57 2012. Well said.The same libs that closed down the institutions also want the gun control. Jawohl! |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 13:35:59 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 10:28:54 2012. And if the treatment needs to be ongoing . . . ? |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 28 14:49:44 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by WillD on Fri Dec 28 12:33:36 2012. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Dec 28 15:18:32 2012, in response to Mental Institutions Needed, posted by shiznit1987 on Fri Dec 28 09:11:57 2012. AMEN! Also include the media people who cover these events for weeks on end!Bob |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 15:54:00 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 28 13:20:50 2012. For such people, you are correct. But what of the homeless. They obviously cannot take care of themselves, otherwise they would not be homeless. They should be swept up and placed in an institution. An institution for the homeless, which is very different from a hospital in the nature of restraint that is used upon people. Obviously it has to be nice enough that people once taken in will WANT to stay there.ROAR |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 15:55:01 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 13:35:59 2012. Then whatever such "ongoing" treatment costs, is less than the incalculable price of even one more fatality arising out of the LACK of care. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by chud1 on Fri Dec 28 16:08:20 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Railman718 on Fri Dec 28 07:12:01 2012. i stand against da wall in a station until da train stops and da doors open. this way no one sneeks up behind me.chud1 |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 28 17:41:34 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by chud1 on Fri Dec 28 16:08:20 2012. I do pretty much the same thing. |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Fri Dec 28 22:15:52 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:15:19 2012. Makes sense to me.Jimmymc25 |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by RiverLINE3501 on Fri Dec 28 23:11:52 2012, in response to Barriers Needed, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Dec 28 05:50:51 2012. These events seem to be a peculiar NYC problem, since they rarely occur in other cities with subways [Philly/DC/SF/LA/Toronto/Montreal/Chicago/Boston/Atlanta], not that a similar occurrence could happen elsewhere, but everytime it happens , it happens in NYC.Maybe nutcases don't roam around in other cities like NYC [doubt it],or transit cops are more vigilant, crap like this just don't happen on these subway systems as frequently as in NYC. Elsewhere it is a very rare event. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Dec 29 01:30:15 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 28 14:49:44 2012. That may well be, but it doesn't change the fact that the most common excuse given by NYers as to why they cannot use platform edge doors is completely false. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 29 07:40:22 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 28 17:41:34 2012. LION is not paranoid. Him stands near edge watching for train.But LION is aware of who is around him, and what they are doing. ROAR |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sat Dec 29 08:41:49 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by WillD on Sat Dec 29 01:30:15 2012. There is no "May" regarding this, it does cost money now of coruse the "reactive agency" i work for is now looking into this..Thats Ok though you wont be paying for it since you dont live in New York right? |
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Re: Mental Institutions Needed |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 09:21:06 2012, in response to Re: Mental Institutions Needed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Dec 28 09:15:19 2012. Sorry; liberal politicians did not want that, so they regulated mental hospitals out of existence. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 29 09:55:09 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Railman718 on Sat Dec 29 08:41:49 2012. Ok. I'll pay for your subway trains if you help pay for all of the new roads we need in North Dakota!ROAR |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Dec 29 10:26:59 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Railman718 on Sat Dec 29 08:41:49 2012. I wonder who opens and closes the barriers?What about passengers getting "caught" past the barrier between the platform and the train? Every time we get a "push" or two this "idea" comes up again. Then it gets forgotten about for a whole variety of reasons, mostly for cost. Passengers have to be aware of their surroundings and stay back from the edge...........OFF ANYTHING YELLOW till the train comes to a complete stop. |
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Re: Barriers Needed |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Sat Dec 29 10:45:28 2012, in response to Re: Barriers Needed, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Dec 29 10:26:59 2012. ...but Bill, how far back? And this woman was simply sitting on a bench accorfding to what I've read. I don't see what he could have done to prevent this.Sorry Bill......I respectfully disagree. This is clearly something whose time has come....they can figure out logistics. As I've said in starting the thread, I get it that we can't go with the best possible solution namely floor to ceiling enclosures which are, of course, part of almost every new subway system being built now. There has to be a way within the bounds of reasonable costs of coming up with sommething better than nothing. |
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