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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Aug 1 19:59:49 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Pigs will fly and the GOP will vanish before any of that is ever built. |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Aug 1 20:45:07 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Aug 1 19:59:49 2012. So pigs can fly and there is no GOP? Cool! |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. "The roof canopy at the Alabama Avenue station on the is flat,suggesting that there was planned express track as the flat top would be used for support. All that remains or was built is a trackway which rises east of Broadway Junction and ends at the west end of the Alabama Avenue station. The never-used ramp was built as part of the Dual Contract reconstruction of the Broadway Junction complex that took place between 1915 and the early 1920s." Often wondered why they never used the ramp for what it was intended for. A bigger question was what changed their minds, why the change of heart?? If they were to re-route the El up Jamaica Ave just east of B'Way jct instead of runnining it up Fulton st & thus eliminating the Crescent st curves, maybe 75 ft equiptment could have been used today. From a simplistic operating standpoint, that move would have made a lot of sense. Less wear & tear on the structure & track, to say the least. BTW thanks for taking the time & trouble to make this long post. Much appreciated |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 1 20:48:54 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by R30A on Wed Aug 1 20:45:07 2012. Ya gotta try one of the crosstown pigs. They can really move. You just don't want to be under one of them when they do. :) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 1 20:53:38 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Wow! Fabulous stuff! Thanks for the details! |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 1 21:09:15 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012. Isn't there a problem with 75-foot cars on the curves between the Williamsburgh Bridge and Marcy Ave. station? IIRC, if two trains of 75-foot cars tried to go through there, they could sideswipe each other. |
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Posted by mike nash on Wed Aug 1 21:12:11 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012. why is nostrand ave ond fulton street station bylevel? |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 21:27:45 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012. You're Welcome! |
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 21:28:28 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 1 20:53:38 2012. No Prob. ; ) |
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Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 21:39:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 1 21:09:15 2012. Yes, I heard of that too, but that could have been worked out with signaling as in have a big red ball on the west end of the Marcy Ave platform if anything is approaching the curve, or the closest block to the curve on the eastbound track comming off the bridge. Eastbound trains have priority. Train clears, green light,Manhattan bound trains proceed on signal indication.I know, kinda simplistic but heck. if the TA wanted bad enough for 75ft cars to go to at least to Eastern pky or Metropolitain Ave, they could have worked something out. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Wed Aug 1 21:59:57 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by mike nash on Wed Aug 1 21:12:11 2012. What I have read is that it was originally a local station.After construction started, the decision was made for to be an express, so they had the express tracks rise and run through the mezzanine. |
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Posted by Clayton on Thu Aug 2 00:56:29 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Very nice write up! With regards to 63/Lex, the trackways on the the SAS side of the station now no longer ends in Manhattan schist. The construction broke through to the track way. It is now boarded up with a giant ventilation fan to provide air to the huge cavern behind the wall. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 01:21:45 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Clayton on Thu Aug 2 00:56:29 2012. Oh, ok thanks. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 2 02:58:07 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Now That was a lot of work..thanks for the write up.. |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Aug 2 03:17:13 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012. Speaking of Alabama Ave, are there any closeup pictures of the original canopy? Most of the pictures of the station prior to the 1990s either don't have it or the canopy is visible in the distance. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 03:56:21 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 2 02:58:07 2012. Thank you so much man! |
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Posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. How about at IRT Atlantic Ave station where 7th & Lex lines come togather just before the station, coming from the West.There is a track way that leads to the LIRR. Before the TA built structures on the IRT platform you could easily see it & looking to the West you could see that it was posible for either line to get to that track way. The story is that a connection existed in the time of August Belmont & he used the connection to get to Belmont Park on the LIRR. |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Aug 2 09:14:15 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by R30A on Wed Aug 1 20:45:07 2012. +1 |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Aug 2 09:42:13 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. On the IND, you will find an emergency exit at almost all places where a bellmouth exists, whether complete and active, or incomplete and just waiting for the big bucks. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 09:48:01 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Aug 2 09:42:13 2012. Nope, not at all. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 14:35:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by mike nash on Wed Aug 1 21:12:11 2012. This station was originally planned to be a local station with a mezzanine. It was designed as one. The upper platforms are double wide which would have been consistent with the design of a mezzanine. The change was probably made in the early days of it's construction, probably after changing it to a more recognizable express format became impossible or too costly. That's why they decided to make it an express station instead. They decided this early on (as the tiles change color at Nostrand), but it was after the shell was already there that the IND probably decided to make it an express station. The express tracks ascend and decend, they don't curve too far outward, so there would have been enough to make a normal station at that point if they didn't already build a "local" station shell there before they changed the plans in the 30's. The express tracks and local tracks are not perfectly on top of each other like at other stacked express stations. They are in the middle, just on a different level. Nostrand Avenue is an after-thought express station. If the IND planned it as a stacked express station from the beginning, it would have platforms that look like those at Kingston-Throop Avenue, and the platforms would have been stacked right on top of each other, and the tracks right on top of each other. By the time it was time for the tiles, it was already decided that Nostrand would be an express station, having the express tracks go through what was originally planned to be the mezzanine of a local station. If it was planned to be a double-decker express station right from the start because of topography, it would look like Bergen Street. The underground ROW IS four tracks wide at this staation, not two tracks wide. The express tracks go up to what was supposed to be a mezzanine, and are still in between the local tracks, except they are one level up. The curtain wall between the local tracks on the lover level hides the big void where the two express tracks were originally supposed to go through.There is a closed passageway with a crossover to Bedford Avenue at the north end of the upper level along with a closed exit to Arlington Place. The closed passageway was built for a transfer to an proposed subway line, which is why the overpass was placed there. There might a shell station at this location. There is an emergency exit at that location is in fact the superstructure for an Bedford Avenue subway. The lower level has a curtain wall separating the two tracks and inside are two additional trackways. West (railroad north) of this station, there is some sort of provision in the tunnel structure for the eventual construction for a subway line. The tunnel roof is unusually high to provide the space for the construction for that future subway line. It's interesting to note that all the proposed IND Second System or even the "Third System" lines, there seems to be the least information about this subway line other than that one was proposed. That may also be why there are only minimal provisions for its construction as opposed to other lines of the IND Second System. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 14:41:49 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012. Yep, forgot all about that one. Thanks. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:06:09 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Quite an exhaustive list indeed!! Thanks for posting. Most of this stuff I had known about- but I had noticed, but didn't know the reason for the turnouts on that can be seen from the R just as it leaves Whitehall Street, Brooklyn- bound. Thanks for clearing that one up for me!! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:09:57 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:06:09 2012. Also, I'd never previously been able to get an answer about the turnouts visitble from the D, near 4th Avenue, after it leaves 36th Street. So, thanks again! |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:12:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:06:09 2012. You're quite welcome! I always like threads like this. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 21:39:10 2012. There's a similar issue on some of the curves on the M- structure. Back in 1976, they actually ran a Fan Trip of R46s there... |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:22:41 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:09:57 2012. Yep. I always wondered about that area too, there is a deadend tunnel under the hill that the "B" goes up between F-3, and F-1 south of 36th St. There is an ejector room there now, but I was down there before it was built and was wondering if this could have been part of an extension that was planned but never completed. There is an access ladder between 36th and 45th stations just before 1 and 3 come together that goes down to the present pump room. The tunnel follows the same incline as D-3 that the "B" goes up to the 5th Ave cut. I read how this was one of the "Triborough Subway" lines started in 1912 before the Dual System was final. They planned to route a branch under 39th St, and built the junction you saw, four tracks diverging off the main four tracks, turning east into 39th St and stopping immediately. Now it all makes sense.BTW, you're welcome...again. : ) |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:24:00 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:22:41 2012. Sorry, make that "under the hill that the D goes up", not the B line. My bad. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:29:46 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012. Yep, there was even a pic of that posted here a while back.... |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:29:49 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012. Yep, there was even a pic of that posted here a while back.... |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 15:31:26 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:22:41 2012. Huh, I always heard it was for a proposed connection to Staten Island. Supposedly there are 2 such provisions. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:33:53 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 15:31:26 2012. Nope, that was a reply to MainR3664 about turnouts visible from the D, near 4th Avenue, after it leaves 36th Street. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:33:56 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 15:31:26 2012. Nope, that was a reply to MainR3664 about turnouts visible from the D, near 4th Avenue, after it leaves 36th Street. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 16:24:07 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. I'm not sure how much a part of the Second Ave subway that high ceiling in 2 Ave-Houston St is supposed to be. I seriously doubt it's for the trackways, because the ceiling is too low to accommodate full-height tunnels in that space, without carving out more. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:26:59 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 16:24:07 2012. Well that's true. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:27:40 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:26:59 2012. Well that's true. But why the high ceiling? |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:27:43 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:26:59 2012. Well that's true. But why the high ceiling? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 16:43:41 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:27:40 2012. Not sure, maybe that was supposed to be space for a platform, stairs, etc.? |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Aren't there bellmouths off the "F" express tracks between 7 Avenue and Church Avenue that would have led to the never-built Fort Hamilton Pkwy-Staten Island line?wayne |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 18:09:55 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012. I asked that, too, and never got an answer! |
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Posted by LA Scott on Thu Aug 2 18:14:54 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012. I thought the line would branch off south of Church. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:30:14 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012. I've heard about that one, but I do not know if it exists. |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:08 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012. I've heard about that one, but I'm not sure if it exists. There's also another one located at the 7th ave IND train station,on the F/G lines. When you get off the train (Coney Island bound), walk up the stairs and the floor ramps upwards at the top near the turnstyles you'll see fenced off area with a set of stairs.Looks to me like another incomplete, could this also have been for the S.I. line?... There's also an bellmouth in the 6th Avenue-Houston St Subway, along the curve just before West 4th St. I wonder what it's was for....what line was it for...? |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:12 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012. I've heard about that one, but I'm not sure if it exists. There's also another one located at the 7th ave IND train station,on the F/G lines. When you get off the train (Coney Island bound), walk up the stairs and the floor ramps upwards at the top near the turnstyles you'll see fenced off area with a set of stairs.Looks to me like another incomplete, could this also have been for the S.I. line?... There's also an bellmouth in the 6th Avenue-Houston St Subway, along the curve just before West 4th St. I wonder what it's was for....what line was it for...? |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:40:54 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by LA Scott on Thu Aug 2 18:14:54 2012. Nope, it's north of Church, hence the name of the line "Fort Hamilton Pkwy-Staten Island". |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:06:00 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Great job, Renee! As for Nevins Street, the reason for the lower level track heading east was because the IRT wanted the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge for a 3rd Ave el connection. Eastbound trains coming into Brooklyn from the bridge and Flatbush Ave, would have used that lower level platform and Manhattan bound trains would have turned off on the local track, just north of the station. On or about May 26th, 1908, the IRT petitioned to use the north side tracks of the unfinished Manhattan Bridge for their leased 3rd Ave el. In exchange, the IRT promised to upgrade the 3rd Ave el for steel subway cars. The City, still angry at the IRT for not expanding all of their el stations (as they had originally requested in 1906) to accomodate 8 car trains, shelved the plan. Three years later, in 1911, they formally denied the petition. For those of you who think the IRT got short changed in Brooklyn, they did- for good reasons! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:14:00 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:12 2012. Renee, do you know what the plan would have been if the City had converted the Hudson Tube tunnels under 6th Ave for their express tracks? Would the H&M have had a terminal at West 4th St? That big mezzanine between the 6th And 8th Ave platforms/tracks would have been perfect for an H&M terminal! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:17:14 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 03:56:21 2012. I noticed that you wisely did not include 76th Street! |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:20:18 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012. . |
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