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| Re: Unbuilt Stuff (1169970) | |
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| (1170176) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:41:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012. what story? I gave YOU and the rest of the RT crew the hand drawn blueprints by bob emory showing 1 track conn.in place & emory stating that the mineola used it to get to belmont race track & other race tracks[jamaica&aquaduct] from 1908 to 1916.my 2 cents: every thing renee just posted I posted in detail over the years.I FEEL SO FORGOTTEN,SNIFF,SNIFF.the signal that controlled the ramp track conn.into the mainline IS NOT in the way of the roadbed.a train was laid up on that ramp when roosevelt ave was the terminal.rando also has posted on this.the bedford ave subway was originally a BRT/BMT venture,comimg off the franklin shuttle & basically following the present day G train as a subway&EL to QBP. |
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| (1170180) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:48:39 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:41:10 2012. Why would it be a joint venture with the IRT, if it came off of the Franklin shuttle? Unless there was some connection off of Eastern pkwy. |
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| (1170181) | |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:50:32 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:41:10 2012. It was built in a least 2 sections that I have posted on thru the years.signing off for the nite. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1170182) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 2 19:54:21 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012. It was supposed to run down the middle of Fulton STteet and keep rising and dropping over other local stations. Structural engineers determined the structure could not handle that along with steel trains on it. |
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| (1170187) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 20:06:49 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 2 19:54:21 2012. Take a look at any photos of the dual pillars that support the regular tracks and the ramp between Alabama Ave and B'way Jct. They could have easily continued that dual pillar structure down Fulton St to Crescent St, if they wanted. No, they discontinued that plan for some other, as yet unknown reason. My best guess is that, when they killed off the ramp track, they decided against any express stations along Jamaica Ave. |
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| (1170188) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 2 20:12:15 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 20:06:49 2012. What is the "dual pillar structure " ? (have never been on street level there). |
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| (1170193) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Aug 2 20:29:36 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Aug 1 19:59:49 2012. "Pigs will fly and the GOP will vanish before any of that is ever built." Was meant for the OP, not for a Turtle. |
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| (1170195) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 20:44:24 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 2 20:12:15 2012. I lived in that neighborhood when i went to St john's. The ramp pillars, west of Alabama Ave, straddle the original el structure. What I am saying is that they could have continued the structure like that to Crescent Street, but, for some reason, abandoned the plan! |
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| (1170202) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Aug 2 21:00:23 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 09:48:01 2012. NOT AT ALL?MEANING NONE! You have been outside without supervision, and your Hockey Helmet again. |
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| (1170204) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:13:21 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:29:49 2012. Yep- that's how I know it! |
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Posted by mike cruz on Thu Aug 2 21:16:33 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 20:44:24 2012. What woulda been nice is if they made 1 track over highland blvd/Jamaica ave from Bway junc all the way to Crescent st then down the center track to Jamaica and used it as a AM/PM express track. |
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| (1170207) | |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:16:48 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:33:53 2012. I'd wondered about that since I first saw it in 1991. Of course, back then, there was no internet to exchange ideas on. |
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| (1170208) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:18:48 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 20:06:49 2012. I share your guess on this matter. |
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| (1170209) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:25:34 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:41:10 2012. I also believe that the Mineola actually ran from the IRT to Belmont Park. Some of Belmont's traveling party actually noted in their diaries...watch the A&E TV movie (1994) about the subway |
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| (1170210) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:28:30 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by mike cruz on Thu Aug 2 21:16:33 2012. NYCsubway.org indicates that such a plan was revivied in 1958 or so...but early NIMBYs got it killed. |
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| (1170246) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 03:41:00 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:48:39 2012. He didn't say IRT, he said BRT which was the ancestor of the BMT!!!! |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 03:43:17 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:25:34 2012. It would make sense that the Mineola did run on the LIRR since the LIRR's first steel cars the MP-41s were essentially IRT Gibbs cars with LIRR controls and as such were the identical dimensions. |
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| (1170251) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 05:40:03 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:17:14 2012. I did not include 76th Street for obvious reasons. |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 05:44:04 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:06:00 2012. Thank you, and a piece of very good info you've got there! |
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| (1170253) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 05:50:18 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Aug 2 21:00:23 2012. Nope, I'm talking about what you said about Emergency Exits located in every bellmouth in the IND, which isn't even true by the way. |
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| (1170254) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 3 05:55:53 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 20:44:24 2012. That reason I think was they re-evaluated the rest of the el structure and said it can't handle it. I do not know if they planned another set of pillars to the street. |
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| (1170255) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 05:59:45 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:14:00 2012. To be honest I don't really know that one, as I don't really know about the plans for the H&M/PATH. The only plan I know is that a short branch after 9th Street was supposed to connect to the 6 train at Astor Place. There was even a turnout in the tunnel built just for that purpose. |
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| (1170257) | |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Fri Aug 3 07:27:06 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:06:00 2012. By 1909/10, the City was getting VERY annoyed with the Interborough acting like everything was their birthright, and their stranglehold on transportation in Manhattan. |
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| (1170393) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 16:25:27 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Fri Aug 3 07:27:06 2012. Correct. For that reason when the IRT dropped out of the dual contract negotiations, several of the lines that eventually did go to the IRT were for a time earmarked for the BRT/BMT. That is why there was a short section of subway built under Lexington Ave south of Grand Central. The BRT would have gotten the Lex Av subway and both the Jerome and Pelham lines both of which were built to the larger clearances of the BRT. The only lines that would have been given to the IRT would have been the extensions that were directly connected to the existing subway which were the existing IRT Bkln lines and the White Plains Rd line in the Bronx. When the IRT realized that the additional Bronx lines that could have provided connections to its existing system would be lost, the company had a change of heart and decided to settle for what the PSC allotted to it. One of the bones of contention was also that the IRT wanted the 4 Av Subway in Bkln and the PSC decided to give it to the BRT. In fact where the existing N/B IRT lcl track is, between Atlantic and Nevins there was a ramp down to where the IRT could have connected to the 4 Av Subway. The ramp is probably still there, but when the tracks between Atlantic and Nevins were reconfigured circa 1960, the present N/B lcl trackway was installed over the place where the ramp was/is. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 3 16:26:21 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 05:59:45 2012. it was meant to conn.to the 6 via a platform,no track conn. |
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| (1170400) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 16:40:07 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 3 16:26:21 2012. Oh, ok. Well, of course you know these type of stuff. |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 16:40:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Aug 3 16:26:21 2012. Oh, ok. Well, of course you know these type of stuff. |
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| (1170404) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 17:04:12 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. This is north of Chambers Street on the J/Z trains. If you look closely to the right of both pictures, you can see the provision for adding two more tracks on the east side of the station. |
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| (1170406) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by mike cruz on Fri Aug 3 17:16:13 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 21:28:30 2012. Amazing the power NIMBY'S have. Thousands of people will benefit but 100-200 can stop it. |
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| (1170411) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 17:35:28 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012. Here we go:
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| (1170416) | |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Aug 3 17:54:37 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by mike cruz on Fri Aug 3 17:16:13 2012. If the thousands were more vocal and demanding, the 100-200 wouldn't stand a chance. The 100-200 get away with it because the thousands let them. |
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| (1170424) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:23:40 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Some possibly useful additions. The decision to route the lower level at Canal up Bway was that since the Manny B tracks were finished ahead of the Montague St tunnel building a "temporary" ramp to the Bway Subway would be able to bring Bkln BRT/BMT service into Manhattan sooner that it the company had waited until the tunnel was completed. Canal upper was built as a local station and as originally planned, the lower level at City Hall was to have been a 3 track through station and the middle track being used to turn trains coming from either direction similar to the arrangement at Whitehall. The upper level was to have been a stub terminal for local trains coming from Queens and there was a space for a diamond Xover N/O the station until the present signal facility was built there. for those who have access to C/Hall lower, the the trackways at the S/E of the station can be seen ramping up to the upper level. With express service via the Manny B relatively established, the BRT decided to ramp the tracks from Cortlandt St to the upper level and make those tracks the thru tracks and use the lower level or a storage yard. The express tracks that formerly stub ended N/O 57/7 now connect to the 63 St subway and will be used for SAS service although the tunnel infrastructure allows for the local tracks to be connected to it as well.The unique infrastructure at the S/E of Chambers/Centre Sts was to allow the Centre St subway to connect to the Bkln Br. There was never an underground el terminal at that location. As built, J2 and J4 tracks ramped up slightly at the S/E of the station and J1 and J3 tracks dipped slightly at the same place. As originally planned, J1 and J3 tracks were supposed to pass under the ramp to the Bkln Br enroute to the proposed Nassau St subway. The track configuration N/O Chambers St was designed so that eastern Div trains coming from Bway Bkln could loop up to the Bkln Br and Southern Div trains coming off the Manny B could continue to Nassau St and the tunnel. By the time then Nassau St line was actually being built, plans to utilize the Bkln Br from Centre St had been abandoned and so J1 track was elevated slightly to match J2 tk and J1 and J2 tracks were connected to Nassau St. J4 track was reconfigured to dip to match J3 and pass under the N/B track to the relay track that exists today. The 4 Av Subway in Bkln S/O 59 St was built under the west side of 4 Av to allow for the addition of 2 additional tracks if the need ever arose. The present S/B and N/B tracks of the subway would be the S/B lcl and express tracks of a 4 track subway if the additional tracks had ever been built which is why the underground bridge S/O 59 St has the trackways for the additional tracks. According to a now out of print book called "new Subways for New York" which is actually a PSC annual report circa 1914, Con Ed was building circuit breaker chambers under the east side of 4 Av at about the same time as the subway was being built. The PSC requested the utility to construct those chambers as sections of subway tunnel in the event the additional tracks were constructed. AFAIK, the provisions for the additional tracks only go as far as 86 St since by the time the subway was extended to 95 St, it was clear that the additional tracks would not be built. Before the platforms at Bay Ridge Av and 77 St were extended in 1969/70, a space for at least one of the additional tracks could be seen at the S/E of both of those stations. Also when there were still RFWs, bricked up safety niches could be seen against the east wall of the 4 Av subway between the stations all the way up from 86 St to S/O 59 St. These would presumably have been opened up and the east wall used as a curtain wall between the N/B and S/B pairs of tracks. Until the new tile was installed in 86 St station, these bricked up safety niched could be readily seen from the platform on the east wall of the station. While I am not certain, this could indicate that there is some space behind that east wall to allow future construction of the additional tracks to take place with a minimum amount of interference with existing train service. |
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| (1170425) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Aug 3 18:26:33 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:12 2012. I've looked out the back of F trains before, and I've never seen a bellmouth, just a space when the wall for the 6th Ave local stops suddenly before meeting the 8th Ave local's wall. |
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 18:28:41 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Fri Aug 3 18:26:33 2012. Well whatever it is, it sure as hell looks like a bellmouth.... |
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| (1170427) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 18:28:44 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Fri Aug 3 18:26:33 2012. Well whatever it is, it sure as hell looks like a bellmouth.... |
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| (1170428) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 18:29:31 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:23:40 2012. Thank you for that very useful info! |
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 18:29:34 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:23:40 2012. Thank you for that very useful info! |
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:40:34 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 18:28:44 2012. Some so called bellmouths are just vagaries in the construction of the subway in that particular area. There is what seems to be a bellmouth coming off the N/B lcl track at 145 St upper on the IND. That is just an oddity of the way the subway was constructed and was not intended as a provision for anything. |
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| (1170432) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 18:45:05 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:40:34 2012. Ok, gotcha. Thanks for the info. |
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Aug 3 18:58:51 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. Nice work!I'm not sure if anyone mentioned the bellmouth in the LIRR Atlantic Branch just before it rises out of the tunnel towards Nostrand Ave. That was for a possible connection to the Brighton Line (Franklin Shuttle) |
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| (1170436) | |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:59:14 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012. You're welcome. I neglected to mention 2 more provisions off the BMT that are worth mentioning. One is a pseudo bellmouth which is basically a slight widening of the tunnel infrastructure, coming of the Broad St bound lcl tk at the curve where the J line curves south from Delancey St into Centre St which I believe it was intended for a proposed 3 Av subway. The other is an actual 2 track bellmouth which due to the reconfiguration of the Manny B tracks in 1967 is no longer easily visible. These were about a block west of the current 6 Av Manny B tracks and were also intended as a connection to the proposed 3 Av subway. Prior to 1967, they were readily visible from the RFW of any N/B BMT train coming off the Manny B enroute to Canal St. |
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| (1170437) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 19:00:41 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:59:14 2012. Once again, thank you! |
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| (1170438) | |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 19:01:35 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Aug 3 18:58:51 2012. Oh yeah, forgot about that one, and thank you. |
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| (1170440) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 19:04:42 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:59:14 2012. "One is a pseudo bellmouth which is basically a slight widening of the tunnel infrastructure, coming of the Broad St bound lcl tk at the curve where the J line curves south from Delancey St into Centre St which I believe it was intended for a proposed 3 Av subway."That reminds me of the slight bellmouth on the curve of the northbound IRT 2/3 just north of the Nevins Street station. |
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| (1170443) | |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 19:11:47 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 19:00:41 2012. You're welcome. It seems the more I look at this thread, the more things I come up with. I have heard that behind the bulkhead at the end if the Flatbush Av station on the IRT Nostrand Line, the tunnel infrastructure and trackways continue for a couple of blocks since the line was eventually supposed to be extended farther down Nostrand at least to Ave U although some sources have indicated that it would have eventually come out onto an el structure at the extreme south end. Also in the 38 St Cut there is an indentation on the right side of the portal as soon as the trains emerge form the 4 Av Subway and at the opposite end of the covered portion of the cut towards the south, there are trackways merging with the existing line but I don't know how far back into the cut they go. In that same are just N/O 9 Av station there are 2 ramps that go up from the existing West End ROW towards what we used to call the "5 Av Yd." The old timers have told me that they were never used and I suspect that they were intended as a more direct route from the Culver and West End trains to access the 5 Av El. As operated, the 5 Av El trains used the present yard leads which meant they had to go through the yard and the unused ramps were probably intended to bypass the yard. |
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| (1170444) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 19:12:39 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 19:04:42 2012. It is similar in construction. |
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Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 19:17:04 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 19:11:47 2012. Wow! Keep it coming! Thanks! |
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| (1170456) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Aug 3 20:26:01 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:59:14 2012. One is a pseudo bellmouth which is basically a slight widening of the tunnel infrastructure, coming of the Broad St bound lcl tk at the curve where the J line curves south from Delancey St into Centre StRecalling an old schematic of the tunnel posted here way back, it was planned that another subway would continue along Delancey. Looking at it now though, there's so little to see, it's really just a niche in the wall. |
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| (1170460) | |
Re: Unbuilt Stuff |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 20:33:00 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Fri Aug 3 20:26:01 2012. Not really: A detail of a Public Service Commission map shows the station location, including the private property west of Bowery. At the curve is a provision for a branch into Spring St, for which no definite plan was ever provided. Public Service Commission for the First District, from their Report. . . for the year ending December 31, 1908, Albany: the Commission, 1909. From: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/bowery.html |
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Posted by mike cruz on Fri Aug 3 20:33:07 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 3 17:35:28 2012. NICE! |
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