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Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012

I have a list right here:

Roosevelt Avenue Terminal and trackways:
The only IND Second System station that was actually finished is the
Roosevelt Avenue terminal (on the upper level of the IND Queens Blvd
Station in Queens), it has trackways but no tracks. There is a
trackway just east of the Roosevelt Avenue Station that diverges away
from the D1 track (Manhattan-bound local track).The trackway ramps up
to the same level as the 2 trackways coming from the never-used
Roosevelt Avenue Terminal, making 3 trackways on the upper level. The
ramp flies over the mainline tracks along with the two other
trackways. There is a diverging bellmouth next to the D2 track
(Jamaica-bound local track) several hundred feet north of the
station, just at the location where the 3 upstairs trackways are crossing over. I think only the city-bound trackway from the Roosevelt Avenue terminal station meets the main line; the other turnout, on the eastbound side, ends in a concrete wall shortly after the start of the turnout. When Roosevelt Avenue was the terminal from 1933 to 1936, the ramp leading to the upper level probably had track on it at one time.
From looking from the side window of an train, it looks there isn't
even any ballast on the ramp IIRC. That converted signal is actually
in the path of the ramp, it would have to be moved if the ramp were to ever go in service. There is no tape on the model board either. If
there was anything there, it was painted over. You have to look up at
it in just the right way with certain lighting to see faint
indentations of where the Winfield spur was to have turned off from D1 and D2. It is a terminal station with two trackways and an
island platform, fully tiled, with blank signs in place on the island
platform. The tunnel continues for quite some distance above the
tracks that serve the lower station, until the point where they would
no longer be on top of each other; you can see the trains on the lower tracks from the tunnel.

South of the Canal Street station on the A, C, & E:
A bellmouths was built south of Canal Street on the IND 8th Avenue
local southbound and northbound tracks (trains headed towards World
Trade Center) and was supposed to be where the trains would come off
the 8th Avenue Line and turn onto Worth Street and East Broadway towards So. 4th St. Years ago I remember seeing there was a arrow painted with the words "Worth St." on it in the tunnel wall, not too far from the turnout. This is where the Worth Street Line was going to be.

2nd Avenue station on the F:
Space was reserved for the 2nd Avenue line at 2nd Avenue on the IND
6th Avenue Line / look above at that end and there is a higher
ceiling. The 2nd Avenue station wasn't built as an express station.
The tracks end shortly past the false wall that is there (I believe
one train length/535 ft). The two tracks extend about 535 feet from
the end of the platform to the end of the track and tunnel, just shy
of one train length. There is nothing more beyond that point, though
it was intended to become an under-river tube to Brooklyn, under the
2nd Phase of the IND, was supposed to lead to what was supposed to
have been the South 4th Street Station. When the service started
running there, the false wall was move a little back into the tunnel
to give the trains a little more than just 600 ft to berth in the
station. Near the ending of the tail tracks, the tracks begin to
separate and end at bumper blocks. At the end of the tracks at the
bumper blocks, there is a provision of a center track which only
extends about 15 feet and it stops at the bulkhead aor a diamond
crossover at the end of the tunnel. I think the skells took over the
area so it was blocked off so that they would stop living there.

2nd Avenue Subway Connections:
The IND 63rd Street line, east of Lexington Avenue/63rd Street, the
bellmouths for the 2nd Ave Subway connection are clearly visible.
Now when it mears to the left it does not go in that much. I would say it goes at most 25'. No tracks have been laid as of yet. Also where one of the the bellmouth ends (southbound side, I think) there is just 2 bars there to hang on which is on the floor. Thats about it. I personally would of though it was in much deeper where you can't see nothing but black.

At Lexington Avenue/63rd Street on the F line, behind the platform
walls on each level is a second track intended for future connection
to the proposed Second Ave Subway. East of this station, the planned
track connections to the 2nd Avenue Subway curves slightly north and
ends with a bumper. After the tracks ends, the roadbed goes on for a
few hundred feet and the the smooth cement wall floor and ceiling come to a stop.

Bellmouths east of 63rd Drive/Rego Park:
There is a turn-off provision off the D1 Track (Mahattan-bound local)
east of 63 Drive/Rego Park station, which would have gone down to the
Rockaways via the former LIRR line. This turnoff ramps up to an upper
level. It crosses over the existing IND Queens Blvd Subway to
curve south, and ends at the edge of the line under Queens Blvd. Well, I've ridden on the eastbound R, G or V lines between Roosevelt Avenue and 71st-Continental many times and have seen the turnouts at from the railfan window (when the line ran R-32s). I can't recall the exact area, but I know that at least one of the turnouts is very short and comes to a wall perhaps 40ft away from the main line (I believe its the one next to the D2 Track), and, interestingly, even has an emergency exit that was built into the wall that curves away from the main line. The other one goes a little longer. I've read somewhere that one of the tunnels continues as far as 66th Avenue. As I said,it does go a little longer than the other one. These were obviously turnouts intended for lines to be built later, which of course, never were. That emergency exit where the tunnel first turns off. At the 63rd Drive station the
structure at the end of the Jamaica/Forest Hills bound end was to be a tower. This structure supposed to be the tower for the proposed Rockaway Line connection.

The tracks east of 179th Street:
East of 179th Street on the IND Queens Blvd Line, the small layup yard on both levels east of the 179th Street Station, which was planned for an extension of the F train to Springfield Blvd or Little Neck Pkwy. The upper level track east of this station was to be extended eastward while the lower level tracks was always intended to be relay tracks.
The tracks on the upper level is longer than the lower level tracks
and the upper level tracks has a wooden partition at the bumper
blocks. The tracks for the upper level were put in later.

South of 59th Street (4th Avenue Line):
South of 59th Street/4th Avenue (next to the local tracks), there are
bellmouths for a proposed line to Staten Island. Well, they're not
bellmouths at all, but the tunnel does not narrow south of 59th St.,
thereby leaving two trackways - one on either side of the 4 active
tracks. Looking South on the S/B platforms, the shed that you
see about 100 feet into the tunnel is sitting in one of the trackways. The view from the N/B platform is unobstructed. The trackways run for about 150 feet. The one on the N/B side ends in a
brick wall, with evidence of some sort of space beyond. Even further
South, the bridge over the Bay Ridge cut has four trackways, with the
2 active tracks of the 'R' line occupying the two westernmost ones (by this point, the Fourth Av line swings over to the Western half of 4th Av).

South Fourth Street provisional platforms:
Above the Broadway station on the G there is a unused station shell
that was supposed to be called, "South 4th Street". This was part of
the IND Second system, where 2 lines coming from Mahanttan was
supposed to merge into. If you're standing on the N/E of the northbound G line at Broadway station you can kinda make out an darkened transfer tunnel that looks like a very wide passageway that would have taken you to the upper levels where the 6 track South 4th st station is located. The station wall on the N/E of the S/B platform looks like it was an afterthought, meaning it was built after the tranfer passage to So. 4th St wasn't gonna be used. NOTE: South 4th St. isn't a complete, full-length station. It's only as long, roughly, as the G-line station below, Broadway, is wide. I was at the Broadway station in fall of 2008 and saw what looked like an opening in the ceiling above the N/B platform near the northern end -looked like a ventilation shaft of some sort. Perhaps it had do something with the S 4th St station above.....

*Bedford–Nostrand Avenues Middle Track:
The "express" track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G was meant to be a
separate line, not an express track, like it seems to be. After
Bedford-Nostrand going Queens-bound there was supposed to have been a
line continuing down Lafayette Street, and Bedford-Nostrand was
supposed to have been the transfer point. The extension along
Lafayette Avenue would have turned a bit at Stanhope Street and joined the Myrtle Ave-Central Ave Line (Central Ave in Glendale, not
Brooklyn's Central Ave) to form a four-track line. Classon Avenue was
to have had a turning track. All this was to be built as part of the
IND Second System, which would have made the subway map look much
different than it does today. East of this station, the middle track
splits into two tracks and ramps down under the main tracks before the mainline tracks curve north, and abruptly ends. The tail tracks
continues to Marcy Avenue and end at bumper blocks.

*Utica Avenue station shell:
At the Utica Avenue station on the A and C lines, in the center of the station, the ceiling slopes down compared to the rest of the station. Above are unused platforms intended for use of the propsosed Utica
Avenue Line as part of the IND Second System. There were blocked
stairways up from platform level to the unused station shell, but
possible evidence is present at ceiling level. It appears that there
are four trackways and two island platforms running diagonally across
the ceiling in the center of the station. There are some locked doors
which could serve as access to the unfinished platforms. The station
shell sits unused yet relatively clean and well-lit. Before the
renovation of this station in 1995-96, it was possible to see the station shell from the mezzanine. Past the main booth, there was a long ramp that goes down to a landing from which stairways lead to the 2 active platforms. There was a fence there. Past the fence, there was a tiled wall with a door. The door had a few of slots missing. A look into the door revealed the unused station platform, with the trackways. After the renovation of this station, the door which was the access to the unused platforms, was no longer there. The only access to the unused platforms would be from the locked doors in the mezzanine.

Nevins Street Trackways:
South of Hoyt Street on the IRT Brooklyn line, a trackway splits from
the southbound local track, and starts heading downgrade to an lower
level. At the curve in the subway from under Fulton Street to Flatbush Avenue, the trackway curves under the southbound local track, and is joined by another bellmouth heading north for the proposed Manhattan Bridge connection. These trackways leads to the built-but never used Nevins Street platform. After the lower Nevins Street platform, a trackway curves to the east for a subway under Lafayette Avenue, this was later built for the IND Crosstown(GG) Line. On the other side of the IND subway tunnels, the trackway rises again to merge with the southbound local track. Between this
merge and Atlantic Avenue is another bellmouth, splitting from the
local track towards a subway under Fourth Avenue, later bulit for the
BRT/BMT. Lafayette Avenue Subway: Eastbound (Southbound): Ramp down from local track via Nevins Street station lower level and then crossing under the main level IRT subway tracks into Lafayette Ave. Westbound (Northbound): Bellmouth merges into the local track east (railroad south) of the Nevins Street station. Manhattan Bridge: Southbound: Crossing under the main tracks via the Nevins Street lower level (on the same trackway as the Lafayette Ave Subway southbound) and then ramp up to the same local track north of the Atlantic Ave. Station.
Northbound: Provision for one off the local track, north of the Nevins
Street station, as the subway curves from under Flatbush Avenue (north
of Nevins Street) to under Fulton Street (south of Hoyt Street-Fulton
Mall). Fourth Avenue Subway: Southbound: Off the local track north of
the Atlantic Avenue Station. Northbound: Crossing underneath the main
IRT subway tracks, and then ramp up to local track south of the Nevins
Avenue station. The ramp was covered-over in the early 60s, and made into a level trackway. The northbound express and local tracks bet. Atlantic
and Nevins were reconstructed in 1963. The only visible mark for the
proposed IRT 4th Avenue Subway is the curve at the west end of the
southbound local platform at Atlantic Avenue, which is the wall of the
southbound connection. The two trackways end at about the same level,
in 4th Avenue just west of the BMT 4th Avenue Line's Pacific Avenue
station and just a few feet higher. Track was never laid. The trackway
is no longer continuous. When the Independent Subway System was built in
1929-1937 (both Fulton St Subway and the Corsstown Line), it was
allowed to go through through the lower level. When the IND built
through the ramp from Nevins LL, the IRT sued, but the NYC PSC ordered the IRT to vacate the suit and it was dropped.

At Bowery on the BMT Nassau Street Line, in one part of the station
has a high ceiling which was built for a proposed subway to pass
through it. There is also an "Future Doorway" at this station where an opening could be made to the never-built subway station, if it had
side platforms.

At southbound Chambers Street on the J/Z, If you walk alongside the
express track to the south end of the platform, you will see that
big empty space. If you look up at approximately a 45 degree
angle, in the distance you'll see a single yellow bulb hanging from a
ceiling, over what appears to be a darkened tunnel or
trackway that crosses over the entire width of the tunnel. Its too
far away to even know what it is. This was for the proposed Brooklyn
Bridge connection. It may have been, though from where the cliff
leaves off to the J/Z below, it would hae been quite a steep grade to
climb. My guess was that perhaps the brooklyn bridge el tracks had an 'underground' terminal, like that of the tracks which went over the 59th street bridge. There is an old steel set of steps connected it to the Wine Cellar. By climbing the steps and ducking down along a truely low ceiling (3, perhaps 4 feet at some spots), you'd reach the cliff overlooking the J/Z stop. Short of the 'loading dock', 2 tunnels meet - one comes in on a curve, and the other (which has the steps in from the wine cellar) is straight. In the dirt where there 2 tunnels met, you could clearly see some type of rail switch track. The truely puzzling part is that perhaps 10, 20 feet from this switch, the track runs directly into the 'loading dock'(!), pointing in the direction of the cliff and J/Z station.

At the lower level of Canal Street of the BMT Broadway line (Manhattan Bridge line) west of the station, tunnel stubs point to a planned line. This was supposed to be a "Canal Street Line" that ran from the Manhattan Bridge to a loop near the Hudson River. Plans were changed when it was decided that the Manhattan Bridge - Canal St route would be connected to the BRT/BMT Broadway Subway instead. The stubs for the Canal St subway exist. At the west end of the Canal Street Station, it is possible to see a few feet of tunnel straight ahead, past the turning point to Broadway. There is a lot of equipment in this area now including a storage bricked building on one of the trackways, but if you look carefully enough you will still see it. The never-used tunnel runs for about 100 ft or so.

North of 57th Street on the BMT Broadway Subway Line two trackways
turns west from the local tracks, and curve slightly towards the west
before ending. This was a plan for a line that would serve the Upper
West Side. When the BRT/BMT was building the Broadway line as part of
the Dual Contracts, the company also wanted to be awarded the Central
Park West/8th Avenue route, which was on the planning boards at that
time. The company figured that if they built ramps from the Broadway
line that could naturally be extended to an 8th Avenue line, they
would get a toehold on being awarded that line, rather than lose out
to the IRT, the only other subway operator when the Dual Contracts
were built. The BMT/BRT never built that line for various reasons
including the bankruptcy of the company after Malbone Street and
Hylan's plan to include the 8th Avenue/CPW route in the IND system.
The ramps were built but never used for revenue service. If you look
carefully, there are actual track on those trackways (covered by many
years of dirt--they are like two parrallel bumps). I've walked over
the dirt covered stretch. If it's not track someone did a good job of
making it look that way. The old tunnel went about 500 ft or so, not
sure. There are power and signal rooms back there.

Classon Avenue Trackway:
The middle trackway at the Classon Avenue station on the G appears to
have been set aside for a relay or a lay up track. If you look at the
south end of the south bound at Classon, there is a room there that
looks like it was to become a tower. It looks like other towers of
the IND. Large door and several windows. This was also at the north end of the northbound platform at the 63 Drive station for that proposed Rockaway connection. It has since been changed for other uses and doesn't resemble a tower room anymore. I believe that had they built that line that feeds into the G Line at Bedford/Nostrand that it would have been a terminal at certain times of the day. There are some rooms north of the station's northbound platform that resemble crew facilities. The middle trackway at Classon would have been very handy. It's very strange that they had never left it as 3 trackways bet. Bed/Nost. and Classon.

East Broadway on the F:
At East B'way on the F Line, there locked doors at the north end of
the station mezzanine that was supposed to lead up to where the Worth
Street subway was to have a transfer station at. Nothing of the
station was built. There is an empty trackway built over the station.
The lower mezzanine has a door, which, if you peek through, you might
just be able to see a trackway. That lower mezzanine is where the
Worth St. subway would have gone, and the door faces the direction of
the proposed tracks. The empty trackway is part of the proposed Worth
St Subway which would have met the 2 middle tracks from 2 Avenue/
Houston St and gone to S 4 St.

Bellmouths east of Utica Avenue:
South of the IRT (3/4 Lines) Utica Avenue station platforms in
Brooklyn there are bellmouths on both levels for the proposed Utica
Avenue line of the IRT that was not built. Just outside the station on the local track are bellmouths leading south in Utica Avenue for the proposed Utica Avenue line.

East of the Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer station (Upper level) on the
Archer Avenue Line, the track stubs turns south & abruptly ends. It
was intended that the upper level (IND) was to go all the way out to
Springfield Gardens, parallel with the LIRR trackage, as I had once
recall from the original planning. Right now, the tracks do continue
further and curves, and ends where at the stub end that a provision
for a portal to go outside would have built. A Central Instrument Room(753CIR) is located deep in the tunnel on track D2A bench wall. The tail tracks on the upper level are positioned to meet up with the LIRR ROW at it's stub end. On the upper level the tracks (both D1A & D2A)curves south on 160th Street, and ends on South Road. The tail tracks at Parsons-Archer end at stationing 755+00 I believe the station platform end is at around 733+00, so there is approximatly 2200 feet of tail track. The lower level (BMT) has the trackage all the way for the provision of a diamond crossover switch at the end (circa 160th
Street), and perhaps extending into a possible terminal station at
Merrick Boulevard or 190th Street. In any case, as right now, a train
could be easily stored as layups on each track on both levels at each
ends. You can store more than one train on D1A and D2A in the back of
Jamaica Center - Parsons Blvd. The J its just on train on J1 and J2 in
the back at Parsons Blvd.

On the BMT Broadway Line, just after the R train curves out of
Whitehall Street (going southbound), there are 2 very short tunnels
(never-used) sealed with brick walls. The two pockets in the south
wall of the southbound tube was a provision for Construction Route #32 "Battery Park-East River-Atlantic Avenue" Route which was never built. If it had been built it would have more or less duplicated the route
of the "South Ferry" ferry which ran between Whitehall Street and
Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn fron 1836 to 1933.

East of 205th Street on the IND Concourse Line, though used for D
train relays, is a train length tunnel extension on both tracks,
originally to become a line extending towards Co-Op City.

At Woodhaven Boulevard/Queens Mall, on the IND Queens Boulevard Line,
at each end of the station a bellmouth exists in the tunnel walls (N/B
& S/B), where the tunnels widen to allow conversion to an express
station. If you look carefully, these bellmouths don't branch out so
much as they veer away, but they still point ahead. The bellmouths
abruptly ends on both sides of the station.

North of 168th Street (IND 8th Avenue A/C), the center tracks continue to the 174th Street yard, where the C train relays. These tracks was supposed to be a proposed connection to New Jersey over the George Washington Bridge via a proposed lower level (for trains).

There's a bellmouth along the northbound Brighton line between
Atlantic and DeKalb that I assume was built to provide access to the
Ashland Place connection to the Fulton Street elevated, which was a
hot issue while that part of the BMT was under construction. What is a mystery to me is that there does not appear to be a corresponding
bellmouth along the southbound Brighton line tracks, or the 4th Avenue line tracks, for that matter.

When the (Briarwood) Van Wyck Blvd station on the E and F opened in
1937, there used to be bellmouths located south of this station. This
was for a proposed line down Van Wyck Blvd, as part of the IND second
system. These have been since connected to the Archer Avenue Subway.
The entire grade separated tunnels for tracks D1A and D2A were built
as part of the Queens Blvd lines contract under Public Works
Administration (PWA) project No. 2741 in 1935 and 1936. The original
tunnel lighting was installed and operative. They were called tracks
D5 and D6 in 1935-36 and were destined to terminate at Rockaway Blvd.
The tunnel was built originally from the (Briarwood) Van Wyck Blvd
station to the middle of the present interlocking just north of the
Jamaica-Van Wyck station. When the Archer Avenue Extension was added
the original tunnel was left original except for the addition of ties
and track. I figured the provision for the Van Wyck Blvd./
Archer Ave. line south of the Van Wyck Blvd (Briarwood) station was
built at the same time as the rest of the Queens Blvd line. It
made things a whole lot easier when construction on the
Archer Ave. line began in the 1970's.

After crossing the Manhattan Bridge (south side - N/Q trains), as soon as you enter the tunnel landing in Brooklyn, you see a wide open
space, most likely a trackway, coming in on the right. You all see a
similar space ahead of you on the left. This was from the front
window perspective. This can also be seen between DeKalb Avenue and
the portal to the Manhattan Bridge (Near the abandoned Myrtle Avenue
station). From a paper I bought years ago about trackways on the BMT,
these bellmouths were supposed to have been a provision for turning
trains (a loop).

Between 59th Street & Bay Ridge Avenue on the BMT 4th Avenue Subway,
the current tracks is on the west side of 4th Avenue. When the subway
crosses the LIRR Bay Ridge branch (the same time daylight is visible,
only for a brief moment), in a lower deck of a bridge, you could
clearly see that the bridge has four trackways of which only the 2
current western tracks are used. The tunnel leading up to each side of
the bridge was built only for the existing two tracks. The two unused
trackways on the eastern side are empty. From 65th St to 95th St, the
subway is two tracks, and they were built in the west side of 4th
Avenue, so that two additional tracks could be laid in the future if
traffic ever warranted it. Provisions for this expansion are visible
at several locations along the existing 4th Ave. Subway. At Bay Ridge
Ave. and 77th St. stations, the southbound platforms has the columns,
but the northbound, being where a trackway would be if expanded, does
not. At 86th St, the southbound track swings out around the platform,
but the northbound is straight (from the north), this would be the
western half of an express station.

East of the 21st Street-Queensbridge station, before the F line
connects to the Queens Blvd line south of 36th Street, the train
tracks starts to veer off to the left, and the tunnel walls goes
straight. This opening in the tunnel is a bellmouth that was supposed
to be for the Super Queens express service to Forest Hills and on to
Jamaica planned in 1968.

There are bellmouths just west of the Liberty Avenue Station (at the
curve), just east of Broadway Junction's switches. This is viewable
from the RFW of a Fulton Street local (R32), aka the train. The old
David Rogoff track layouts I found in the Sprague Library marks this
as a proposed connection to the Jamaica Ave. El or for an Jamaica
Avenue Subway. It was not a provision for the IND Second System as
were similar never-built structures on other IND subway lines. Oddly
enough, the one on the northbound side has an emergency exit.

The roof canopy at the Alabama Avenue station on the is flat,
suggesting that there was planned express track as the flat top would
be used for support. All that remains or was built is a trackway which
rises east of Broadway Junction and ends at the west end of the
Alabama Avenue station. The never-used ramp was built as part of the
Dual Contract reconstruction of the Broadway Junction complex that
took place between 1915 and the early 1920s. At that time there was
also a proposal to reroute the line via a new elevated structure
directly down Jamaica Avenue and demolishing the original elevated
structure over Fulton Street to eliminate the curves between Crescent
Street and Cypress Hills.

South of 36th St/4th Ace, After the D veers off to the left to make
the ramp going up toward 9 Avenue (West End El), There was another
ramp that went downhill and a left turn going east. This four track
turnout I saw was originally to have been a connection to a four track route going east under 40 Street. The turnouts extend as far as
the east building line of 4 Avenue. After construction had begun it
was decided to make the connection into the West End and Culver Lines
via "Culver Cut." This involved removing the original south half of
the 36 Street Station and extending the platforms to the north.



(1169983)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Aug 1 19:59:49 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Pigs will fly and the GOP will vanish before any of that is ever built.

(1169986)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by R30A on Wed Aug 1 20:45:07 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Aug 1 19:59:49 2012.

So pigs can fly and there is no GOP? Cool!

(1169987)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

"The roof canopy at the Alabama Avenue station on the is flat,
suggesting that there was planned express track as the flat top would
be used for support. All that remains or was built is a trackway which
rises east of Broadway Junction and ends at the west end of the
Alabama Avenue station. The never-used ramp was built as part of the
Dual Contract reconstruction of the Broadway Junction complex that
took place between 1915 and the early 1920s."

Often wondered why they never used the ramp for what it was intended for. A bigger question was what changed their minds, why the change of heart?? If they were to re-route the El up Jamaica Ave just east of B'Way jct instead of runnining it up Fulton st & thus eliminating the Crescent st curves, maybe 75 ft equiptment could have been used today. From a simplistic operating standpoint, that move would have made a lot of sense. Less wear & tear on the structure & track, to say the least.

BTW thanks for taking the time & trouble to make this long post. Much appreciated

(1169988)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 1 20:48:54 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by R30A on Wed Aug 1 20:45:07 2012.

Ya gotta try one of the crosstown pigs. They can really move. You just don't want to be under one of them when they do. :)

(1169989)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 1 20:53:38 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Wow! Fabulous stuff! Thanks for the details!

(1169990)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 1 21:09:15 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012.

Isn't there a problem with 75-foot cars on the curves between the Williamsburgh Bridge and Marcy Ave. station? IIRC, if two trains of 75-foot cars tried to go through there, they could sideswipe each other.

(1169991)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by mike nash on Wed Aug 1 21:12:11 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012.

why is nostrand ave ond fulton street station bylevel?

(1169992)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 21:27:45 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012.

You're Welcome!

(1169993)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 21:28:28 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 1 20:53:38 2012.

No Prob. ; )

(1169995)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 21:39:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 1 21:09:15 2012.

Yes, I heard of that too, but that could have been worked out with signaling as in have a big red ball on the west end of the Marcy Ave platform if anything is approaching the curve, or the closest block to the curve on the eastbound track comming off the bridge. Eastbound trains have priority. Train clears, green light,Manhattan bound trains proceed on signal indication.
I know, kinda simplistic but heck. if the TA wanted bad enough for 75ft cars to go to at least to Eastern pky or Metropolitain Ave, they could have worked something out.

(1169999)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by LA Scott on Wed Aug 1 21:59:57 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by mike nash on Wed Aug 1 21:12:11 2012.

What I have read is that it was originally a local station.
After construction started, the decision was made for to be an express, so they had the express tracks rise and run through the mezzanine.


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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Clayton on Thu Aug 2 00:56:29 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Very nice write up! With regards to 63/Lex, the trackways on the the SAS side of the station now no longer ends in Manhattan schist. The construction broke through to the track way. It is now boarded up with a giant ventilation fan to provide air to the huge cavern behind the wall.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 01:21:45 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Clayton on Thu Aug 2 00:56:29 2012.

Oh, ok thanks.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 2 02:58:07 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Now That was a lot of work..
thanks for the write up..

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Aug 2 03:17:13 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 20:47:22 2012.

Speaking of Alabama Ave, are there any closeup pictures of the original canopy? Most of the pictures of the station prior to the 1990s either don't have it or the canopy is visible in the distance.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 03:56:21 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 2 02:58:07 2012.

Thank you so much man!

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

How about at IRT Atlantic Ave station where 7th & Lex lines come togather just before the station, coming from the West.
There is a track way that leads to the LIRR. Before the TA built structures on the IRT platform you could easily see it & looking to the West you could see that it was posible for either line to get to that track way.

The story is that a connection existed in the time of August Belmont & he used the connection to get to Belmont Park on the LIRR.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Aug 2 09:14:15 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by R30A on Wed Aug 1 20:45:07 2012.

+1

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Aug 2 09:42:13 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

On the IND, you will find an emergency exit at almost all places where a bellmouth exists, whether complete and active, or incomplete and just waiting for the big bucks.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 09:48:01 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Aug 2 09:42:13 2012.

Nope, not at all.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 14:35:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by mike nash on Wed Aug 1 21:12:11 2012.

This station was originally planned to be a local station with a mezzanine. It was designed as one. The upper platforms are double wide which would have been consistent with the design of a mezzanine. The change was probably made in the early days of it's construction, probably after changing it to a more recognizable express format became impossible or too costly. That's why they decided to make it an express station instead. They decided this early on (as the tiles change color at Nostrand), but it was after the shell was already there that the IND probably decided to make it an express station. The express tracks ascend and decend, they don't curve too far outward, so there would have been enough to make a normal station at that point if they didn't already build a "local" station shell there before they changed the plans in the 30's. The express tracks and local tracks are not perfectly on top of each other like at other stacked express stations. They are in the middle, just on a different level. Nostrand Avenue is an after-thought express station. If the IND planned it as a stacked express station from the beginning, it would have platforms that look like those at Kingston-Throop Avenue, and the platforms would have been stacked right on top of each other, and the tracks right on top of each other. By the time it was time for the tiles, it was already decided that Nostrand would be an express station, having the express tracks go through what was originally planned to be the mezzanine of a local station. If it was planned to be a double-decker express station right from the start because of topography, it would look like Bergen Street. The underground ROW IS four tracks wide at this staation, not two tracks wide. The express tracks go up to what was supposed to be a mezzanine, and are still in between the local tracks, except they are one level up. The curtain wall between the local tracks on the lover level hides the big void where the two express tracks were originally supposed to go through.

There is a closed passageway with a crossover to Bedford Avenue at the north end of the upper level along with a closed exit to Arlington Place. The closed passageway was built for a transfer to an proposed subway line, which is why the overpass was placed there. There might a shell station at this location. There is an emergency exit at that location is in fact the superstructure for an Bedford Avenue subway. The lower level has a curtain wall separating the two tracks and inside are two additional trackways.

West (railroad north) of this station, there is some sort of provision in the tunnel structure for the eventual construction for a subway line. The tunnel roof is unusually high to provide the space for the construction for that future subway line. It's interesting to note that all the proposed IND Second System or even the "Third System" lines, there seems to be the least information about this subway line other than that one was proposed. That may also be why there are only minimal provisions for its construction as opposed to other lines of the IND Second System.





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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 14:41:49 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012.

Yep, forgot all about that one. Thanks.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:06:09 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Quite an exhaustive list indeed!! Thanks for posting. Most of this stuff I had known about- but I had noticed, but didn't know the reason for the turnouts on that can be seen from the R just as it leaves Whitehall Street, Brooklyn- bound. Thanks for clearing that one up for me!!

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:09:57 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:06:09 2012.

Also, I'd never previously been able to get an answer about the turnouts visitble from the D, near 4th Avenue, after it leaves 36th Street. So, thanks again!

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:12:10 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:06:09 2012.

You're quite welcome! I always like threads like this.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Wed Aug 1 21:39:10 2012.

There's a similar issue on some of the curves on the M- structure. Back in 1976, they actually ran a Fan Trip of R46s there...

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:22:41 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:09:57 2012.

Yep. I always wondered about that area too, there is a deadend tunnel under the hill that the "B" goes up between F-3, and F-1 south of 36th St. There is an ejector room there now, but I was down there before it was built and was wondering if this could have been part of an extension that was planned but never completed. There is an access ladder between 36th and 45th stations just before 1 and 3 come together that goes down to the present pump room. The tunnel follows the same incline as D-3 that the "B" goes up to the 5th Ave cut. I read how this was one of the "Triborough Subway" lines started in 1912 before the Dual System was final. They planned to route a branch under 39th St, and built the junction you saw, four tracks diverging off the main four tracks, turning east into 39th St and stopping immediately. Now it all makes sense.

BTW, you're welcome...again. : )

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:24:00 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:22:41 2012.

Sorry, make that "under the hill that the D goes up", not the B line. My bad.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:29:46 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012.

Yep, there was even a pic of that posted here a while back....

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:29:49 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 2 15:13:42 2012.

Yep, there was even a pic of that posted here a while back....

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 15:31:26 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:22:41 2012.

Huh, I always heard it was for a proposed connection to Staten Island. Supposedly there are 2 such provisions.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:33:53 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 15:31:26 2012.

Nope, that was a reply to MainR3664 about turnouts visible from the D, near 4th Avenue, after it leaves 36th Street.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 15:33:56 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 15:31:26 2012.

Nope, that was a reply to MainR3664 about turnouts visible from the D, near 4th Avenue, after it leaves 36th Street.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 16:24:07 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

I'm not sure how much a part of the Second Ave subway that high ceiling in 2 Ave-Houston St is supposed to be. I seriously doubt it's for the trackways, because the ceiling is too low to accommodate full-height tunnels in that space, without carving out more.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:26:59 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 16:24:07 2012.

Well that's true.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:27:40 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:26:59 2012.

Well that's true. But why the high ceiling?

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:27:43 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:26:59 2012.

Well that's true. But why the high ceiling?

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 2 16:43:41 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 16:27:40 2012.

Not sure, maybe that was supposed to be space for a platform, stairs, etc.?

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Aren't there bellmouths off the "F" express tracks between 7 Avenue and Church Avenue that would have led to the never-built Fort Hamilton Pkwy-Staten Island line?

wayne


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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 18:09:55 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012.

I asked that, too, and never got an answer!

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by LA Scott on Thu Aug 2 18:14:54 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012.

I thought the line would branch off south of Church.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:30:14 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012.

I've heard about that one, but I do not know if it exists.

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:08 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012.

I've heard about that one, but I'm not sure if it exists. There's also another one located at the 7th ave IND train station,on the F/G lines. When you get off the train (Coney Island bound), walk up the stairs and the floor ramps upwards at the top near the turnstyles you'll see fenced off area with a set of stairs.
Looks to me like another incomplete, could this also have been for the S.I. line?...


There's also an bellmouth in the 6th Avenue-Houston St Subway, along the curve just before West 4th St.

I wonder what it's was for....what line was it for...?


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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:12 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Thu Aug 2 17:48:21 2012.

I've heard about that one, but I'm not sure if it exists. There's also another one located at the 7th ave IND train station,on the F/G lines. When you get off the train (Coney Island bound), walk up the stairs and the floor ramps upwards at the top near the turnstyles you'll see fenced off area with a set of stairs.
Looks to me like another incomplete, could this also have been for the S.I. line?...


There's also an bellmouth in the 6th Avenue-Houston St Subway, along the curve just before West 4th St.

I wonder what it's was for....what line was it for...?


(1170162)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:40:54 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by LA Scott on Thu Aug 2 18:14:54 2012.

Nope, it's north of Church, hence the name of the line "Fort Hamilton Pkwy-Staten Island".

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:06:00 2012, in response to Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 1 18:48:52 2012.

Great job, Renee! As for Nevins Street, the reason for the lower level track heading east was because the IRT wanted the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge for a 3rd Ave el connection. Eastbound trains coming into Brooklyn from the bridge and Flatbush Ave, would have used that lower level platform and Manhattan bound trains would have turned off on the local track, just north of the station. On or about May 26th, 1908, the IRT petitioned to use the north side tracks of the unfinished Manhattan Bridge for their leased 3rd Ave el. In exchange, the IRT promised to upgrade the 3rd Ave el for steel subway cars. The City, still angry at the IRT for not expanding all of their el stations (as they had originally requested in 1906) to accomodate 8 car trains, shelved the plan. Three years later, in 1911, they formally denied the petition. For those of you who think the IRT got short changed in Brooklyn, they did- for good reasons!

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:14:00 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 18:36:12 2012.

Renee, do you know what the plan would have been if the City had converted the Hudson Tube tunnels under 6th Ave for their express tracks? Would the H&M have had a terminal at West 4th St? That big mezzanine between the 6th And 8th Ave platforms/tracks would have been perfect for an H&M terminal!

(1170171)

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 2 19:17:14 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 2 03:56:21 2012.

I noticed that you wisely did not include 76th Street!

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Re: Unbuilt Stuff

Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 2 19:20:18 2012, in response to Re: Unbuilt Stuff, posted by Mr RT on Thu Aug 2 07:37:26 2012.

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