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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by N6 Limited on Sun Mar 4 22:32:39 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 4 22:27:18 2012.

LOL

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by N6 Limited on Sun Mar 4 22:32:58 2012, in response to "The Tube" on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Fri Mar 2 22:16:37 2012.

BBC (1 2 and 3) has some good programming.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Mar 4 22:53:05 2012, in response to "The Tube" on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Fri Mar 2 22:16:37 2012.

This was very good. I have never been over the pond and this was a very interesting look at the behind the scenes of the operation. I was wondering like many juice fans why the 4th rail for current return and I read that some of oldest cast iron tubes were not made to allow a ground return thru the running rails and the current would rot out that cast iron. I did notice many people with missing or crooked teeth. They have nat'l medical coverage and I guess it does not pay for dental they way our private insurance does???? We have our share of pests on NYC transit. I was on a uptown R yesterday running as an EXP from 14 to 34 st and these 3 11-12 year olds were swinging around the poles and they almost kicked this terrified woman in the face. If I was not with my Lady Friend I would have told the punks to stop or else I was gonna call 911 and get the cops. But they got off at 34st. I guess the bigger the system, the more punks, puke and pests.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground


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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Amanda on Mon Mar 5 00:03:46 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by N6 Limited on Sun Mar 4 22:13:23 2012.

A few of them had refrigerated sections for fresh food, like Duane Reade does here - but in high traffic areas.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Mar 5 00:08:26 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Amanda on Mon Mar 5 00:03:46 2012.

Oh makes sense, I guess I didn't see it or pay attention

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by IRT/O on Mon Mar 5 01:10:21 2012, in response to "The Tube" on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Fri Mar 2 22:16:37 2012.

Jeez, the public sure touches tube workers a lot. That aint happening here.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Mar 5 02:58:57 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 4 17:26:32 2012.

lol

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Mar 5 09:59:08 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Joe V on Sun Mar 4 19:52:19 2012.

1992TS? They scream "CHEAP". 1995/1996/2009 much better, although the 1996 cars could do without that awful turquoise insert by the doors. It just doesn't go with the rest of the decor.

wayne


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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 5 16:47:34 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Easy on Sun Mar 4 20:41:33 2012.

In restaurants, they usually refrigerate those little half & half containers until they are served.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:03:09 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Easy on Sun Mar 4 17:40:17 2012.

Even places like Tokyo.

Any station after 10pm.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:04:53 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Easy on Sun Mar 4 17:35:32 2012.

one thing that I notice is that in general the London police put up with a lot more than American police would. People get in their faces inches away and curse them out and they just take it.

English cops carry no guns.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 5 17:08:17 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:04:53 2012.

I thought London ones have been for over 20 years now ?

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Easy on Mon Mar 5 17:16:55 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 5 16:47:34 2012.

I don't think that they need to.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:26:47 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by aem7ac on Sun Mar 4 19:27:20 2012.

McDonald's in London somehow tasted better in 1978 than in 1990. I'd go for doner sandwich when there though.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:34:46 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 5 16:47:34 2012.

They usually don't in Europe. They usually don't chill water either. And in the UK, beer.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:39:00 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 5 17:08:17 2012.

I haven't been there since 1993 so you may be right.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:52:27 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Mar 4 22:53:05 2012.

They have nat'l medical coverage and I guess it does not pay for dental they way our private insurance does????

Dental coverage is minimal in most countries. And I think Americans care about their teeth more than anywhere else I lived.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Mar 5 17:53:22 2012, in response to I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by PATHman on Sun Mar 4 15:38:05 2012.

Self-destructive Brits + Chavs = cultural suicide.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Mar 5 18:19:52 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by seabeachexpress on Sun Mar 4 22:53:05 2012.

Feel bad for a cleaner who has to respond to a code 7 ...

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Mar 5 18:55:40 2012, in response to "The Tube" on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Fri Mar 2 22:16:37 2012.

This was cool. I'm watching all the other episodes.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Mar 5 18:56:53 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Sat Mar 3 22:37:49 2012.

For the same reason people do it here. To show off.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 19:31:33 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 17:26:47 2012.

When I was in London in 1975, I ordered a pizza and it came topped with CHEDDAR cheese. I guess the Brits never heard of mozzarella. Oddly, in Ireland (I can't speak for England), especially Dublin, most of the fish and chips shops are, or at least were, owned and operated by italian immigrants to that country and their descendants. Why they didn't open up decent Italian restaurants to show the people what REAL Italian food is supposed to be, I don't know.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by merrick1 on Mon Mar 5 19:32:05 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Sat Mar 3 22:37:49 2012.

A person who drives a Hummer Limo is probably being paid to drive it. I doubt if very many people own one as a personal vehicle.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Easy on Mon Mar 5 19:48:25 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by merrick1 on Mon Mar 5 19:32:05 2012.

It was a Hummer lino so definitely not a personal vehicle.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Easy on Mon Mar 5 19:48:33 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by merrick1 on Mon Mar 5 19:32:05 2012.

It was a Hummer limo so definitely not a personal vehicle.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Mar 5 21:15:57 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 19:31:33 2012.

Maybe decent food didn't sell well. In the seventies, it was also hard to find decent coffee in the UK.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Mar 5 22:36:33 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 19:31:33 2012.

Oddly, in Ireland (I can't speak for England), especially Dublin, most of the fish and chips shops are, or at least were, owned and operated by Italian immigrants to that country and their descendants. Why they didn't open up decent Italian restaurants to show the people what REAL Italian food is supposed to be, I don't know

Probably cost of ingredients as well as availability. Local butchers in Ireland didn't make stuff like pepperoni or hard salame, after all, and olives aren't grown in Ireland in large amounts; potatoes are, and there's a large fishing industry. I knew a family over there who were chip shop owners that didn't start marketing Italian cuisine until the mid-90s.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 5 23:34:05 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 19:31:33 2012.

There's plenty of good pizza in London now.

Oddly, I did not like the regular Italian restaurants I went to. Though owned by actual Italians, they seemed to prostitute their food to English tastes. Too heavy and creamy. And there is nothing indigenous like our Italian-American cuisine.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Fytton on Tue Mar 6 12:16:18 2012, in response to "The Tube" on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Fri Mar 2 22:16:37 2012.

I've just watched episode 3 which was broadcast last night - I was out then, so I recorded it. It was about what Tube workers call 'one-unders', which are 12-9s in NYC. Grim subject but fascinating viewing.

Great quote to end the programme, from a T/O: 'The Underground is like Marmite, you love it or hate it. I hate Marmite but I love the Undergound.'

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Mar 6 15:19:47 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Mar 5 18:55:40 2012.

I watched episode 2 last night. It's very interesting about the fare beating. Most stations have barriers where you have to tap to get in or out, so I wonder how they get in, or out.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Easy on Tue Mar 6 19:29:14 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Fytton on Tue Mar 6 12:16:18 2012.

Thanks. I'll make sure to watch it on YouTube. I watched the old series last weekend and it also had an episode on one unders.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Mar 6 20:08:12 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by randyo on Mon Mar 5 19:31:33 2012.

because to the irish fish&chips IS gourmet cusine.remember,baby steps first.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Easy on Tue Mar 6 20:42:49 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Tue Mar 6 19:29:14 2012.

Watching now.

Also, I have a general comment regarding London's emergency services. Watching the old series (series 3) they had a special on the 7/7 attacks. I was amazed to see that the initial attacks had a 40-45 minute response from the fire department. Also in the first episode of this new series where the woman was pushed on the tracks and potentially stabbed, the response was similar. It seems outrageous and unacceptable. Anyone else agree or disagree?

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by WillD on Wed Mar 7 02:34:19 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by N6 Limited on Tue Mar 6 15:19:47 2012.

The ITV version shows exactly how one would pack themselves close to a fare paying customer so as to get through before the paddles close behind them to 'double up' (or what might be called Piggybacking here in the US). The BBC episode clearly shows how a clever Piggybacker can put their hand over the mid gate sensor to confuse the paddles into remaining open for an extended time behind a fare paying customer without being too close to the person whose tap they're leaching off.

Other than leeching rides off customers, passengers can always jump over or crawl under the gates. Admittedly LUL seems to combine the pervasive CCTV of BART, WMATA or PATCO with the massive overstaffing of SEPTA, CTA, or NYCT, so that's a lot harder than it'd be elsewhere.

I have to admit the tapping out as soon as one taps in is an intriguing fare evasion technique. I'm sure there are a few people who always pay the minimum fare from their station. Might be a good idea to prohibit an exit from the station the customer just entered for a two or three minute period so as to make that more difficult.

IMHO the most important thing both the ITV and BBC episodes on revenue and fare evasion show is just how pervasive fare evasion is on a barrier fare system and how essential a fare inspection team can be even after the investment is made in fare gates. Without that proof of payment element those barriers are as good as worthless.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by chud1 on Wed Mar 7 04:04:59 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Easy on Tue Mar 6 20:42:49 2012.

i agree, it should be no more than 5 minutes. i have family and friends in da FDNY and NYPD and they respond quickly.
chud1

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Fytton on Wed Mar 7 09:44:26 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by N6 Limited on Tue Mar 6 15:19:47 2012.

'Most stations have barriers where you have to tap to get in or out, so I wonder how they get in, or out.'

That's true of central London stations and busy stations in outer London, but at many quieter stations in the outskirts there are no barriers, just touch pads. Also, Oyster cards are valid on other systems as well as the Underground (National Rail within Greater London, the Overground, the DLR and the Tramlink), and although you are advised to tap your Oyster in/out when transferring between the systems to avoid being overcharged, if you haven't got a ticket at all, you can easily transfer between systems without barriers (e.g. the DLR) and ones with (e.g. the Tube) at various interchange stations.

So, if your overall journey is between two non-barrier stations, and there's no barrier between systems (there's none between the Tube and the DLR at Bank, for example) you can get away without a ticket but for the intervention of travelling inspectors. And as the film showed, they are in plain clothes nowadays - an idea copied from Amsterdam, I believe. There are ads up on the tube saying 'It's easy to spot ticket inspectors. They look just like you!'

I knew about 'tailgating' another person through the barriers, but I was a bit surprised that the programme gave such clear and detailed instructions on other ways of avoiding payment!

And, by the way, I invariably have a One-Day Travelcard so I'm always legal (8-) .



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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Fytton on Wed Mar 7 09:49:40 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Mar 4 19:42:06 2012.

'And no mention of the Bakerloo save for the lead-in at Piccadilly Circus.'

The friendly Irish woman T/O featured quite a lot in episode 3 drives on the Bakerloo.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Fytton on Wed Mar 7 10:10:04 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by MATHA531 on Sun Mar 4 21:03:47 2012.

'I've been on some tube trains in the summer where the heat has been almost unbearable.'

It is now generally acknowledged in London that A/C is needed.

'But A/C is coming'

Only on the subsrface lines (the S stock). The technical problem of fitting A/C into the small cross-section trains of the deep tube lines is hard to solve.

'Express service on many lines in NY. Little in London (well the Picadilly line on the way in from Heathrow with the District line serving as the local)'

And Baker Street to Wembley Park (Metropolitan express, Jubilee local). And West Ham to Upminster (National Rail express, District Line local) now that Oyster cards can be used on National Rail.

'A single fare with transfers to buses in NY....zoned system in London and no transfers from underground to bus, but much more imaginative fare system what with the Oyster card and its capping system now'

Also, London still has the equivalent of the Funpass (the One-day Travelcard), and both it and the pay-as-you-go Oyster are valid across all transit systems, including the equivalent of MNCR/LIRR. Big savings for railfans!

'ungodly high single fare prices'

True. But they were instituted deliberately to encourage people to get Oyster cards, which the vast majority have done, and thus make savings on tickert office staff. If you are from outside London altogether, but you come to London on a a National Rail train, you can buy the Tube travel on your national rail ticket (at the Oyster price, in effect). The combination of these two factors means that a rather small peroportion of passengers are using cash single tickets now. As the programme showed, though, this is in effect a tax on the stupid, the ignorant, the confused, the non-English speaking, and the drunk! More should be done to inform visitors about this situation, especially at London airports and main-line termini.

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Easy on Wed Mar 7 13:12:14 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Fytton on Wed Mar 7 10:10:04 2012.

I saw that TfL estimates that they lose 20 million per year to fare evasion on the tube (much more on buses). That's fairly similar to NY given the difference in ridership and ticket prices. Surprising because London seems much better staffed. But they have to jump through hoops to even issue a ticket. They bend over backwards unless that's just for the camera.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 7 14:26:53 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by WillD on Wed Mar 7 02:34:19 2012.

I agree. I had no idea they went on to trains and checked oyster cards, That sounds like an easier way to do check valid riders on the SBS though.

'I have to admit the tapping out as soon as one taps in is an intriguing fare evasion technique. I'm sure there are a few people who always pay the minimum fare from their station. Might be a good idea to prohibit an exit from the station the customer just entered for a two or three minute period so as to make that more difficult.

A problem can arise if someone forgot something at home, or wanted to go to the store, or they missed the last train and have to exit again.


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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 7 14:46:53 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by Fytton on Wed Mar 7 09:44:26 2012.

Ohh Ok I see. How much are the One-Day Travelcards?

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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Wed Mar 7 15:05:15 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Fytton on Wed Mar 7 09:49:40 2012.

I will go check that out. I love the Bakerloo - has more curves than a roomful of chorus girls. That one leading up to Paddington is particularly nasty. And the 1972 MkII Tube stock's great too - big plush seats, neat oval windscreens by the doors and porthole lamps by the end doorways. Very nicely appointed trains.

-wayne


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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Easy on Wed Mar 7 18:07:11 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 7 14:26:53 2012.

LACMTA's gates don't let you tap out right after tapping in. You have to wait a couple of minutes.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by merrick1 on Wed Mar 7 19:13:54 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by WillD on Wed Mar 7 02:34:19 2012.

Tapping out at the same station where you tapped in should cost the minimum round-trip fare. After all you must have gone somewhere.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 7 19:45:50 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by merrick1 on Wed Mar 7 19:13:54 2012.

I suppose you can look at it that way. The Underground goes by Zones. So Tapping out at the same station where you tapped in would be the same as traveling to any station in the same zone. It can't be the minimum round trip fare because that would technically be two trips, no?


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Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground

Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Wed Mar 7 21:44:50 2012, in response to Re: I take back everything I said about the London Underground, posted by Easy on Wed Mar 7 13:12:14 2012.

I saw that TfL estimates that they lose 20 million per year to fare evasion on the tube (much more on buses).

It seems they recoup all or most of that by charging passengers the maximum fare for incomplete journeys.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by WillD on Thu Mar 8 02:23:39 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 7 14:26:53 2012.

A problem can arise if someone forgot something at home, or wanted to go to the store, or they missed the last train and have to exit again.

On at least some systems it may be possible to call a customer service rep, have your farecard's transactions verified to confirm you just entered, be provided an exit, and told to call for a reentry.

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Thu Mar 8 14:24:41 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 7 19:45:50 2012.

When I rode the entire Metro in Washington, DC 5 years ago, I started and ended my trip at the Vienna/Fairfax station on the Orange Line. When I exited (or rather, attempted to exit), the system lost track of how long I'd been the system (it was 7 hours). Instead of the faregate opening and letting me out, the gate remained closed and the ticket was returned to me. A station agent had to intervene so my ticket could be used to let me out (it looked like the agent typed something into a computer terminal).

The entire trip cost the minimum fare at the time, $1.35.

Koi

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Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video)

Posted by train2104 on Thu Mar 8 16:58:47 2012, in response to Re: ''The Tube'' on BBC2, episode 1 (video), posted by WillD on Thu Mar 8 02:23:39 2012.

BART does this. There are phones in paid area to contact the station agent in case that happens.

Otherwise, tapping out at the same station costs $5.20. For comparison, the highest non airport fare is $7.05 ($10.90 airport)

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