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| TSA Screening at Penn Station Today (1125725) | |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 19 18:09:34 2011, in response to TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:03:52 2011. At least they didn't strip search you! guess they save that for old ladies! |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Mon Dec 19 18:09:39 2011, in response to TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:03:52 2011. Why were you in that line in the first place? Railfans don't wait in those cows to the slaughterhouse half moon chutes. Railfans board from the lower level where there are usually no impediments. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:14:37 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by TERRapin station on Mon Dec 19 18:09:39 2011. I know, but I can explain! I usually go for the exit concourse, but they had just called the track as I was walking past the line, and it was moving fast... going with the sheeple seemed like a good idea at the time, really! |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Dec 19 18:59:27 2011, in response to TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:03:52 2011. While TSA has authority to search transportation operators, I have found no explicit authority for TSA searching of passengers (outside of aviation). The TSA may request that a transportation operator not permit a person to board a vehicle, but it is questionable whether TSA can prevent a person from boarding on their own authority. I would like to find people who have told TSA employees, "I do not consent to a search." |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 20 06:36:42 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:14:37 2011. Well I hope you've learned your lesson. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 20 08:10:49 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:14:37 2011. Why didn't you just answer "it's none of your f##ken business? |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Tue Dec 20 08:27:51 2011, in response to TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Dec 19 18:03:52 2011. TSA is always at Forest Hills-71 Avenue with the NYPD and their explosive sniffing hand held device. Just say no and walk down the bock to the entrance by the T-Bone diner. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Tue Dec 20 08:37:05 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 20 08:10:49 2011. Because unlike you, he understands what I'm talking about. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 09:19:08 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by BusMgr on Mon Dec 19 18:59:27 2011. The people who tell the TSA "I do not consent to a search" might get dragged off to a back room for processing, just like they are at the airport...LOL! The whole point of getting the TSA out of the airport and into train stations and bus terminals, is to further condition the traveling public to OBEY.IINM, TSA hasn't caught a single terrorist yet. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 20 10:00:04 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 09:19:08 2011. You are completely wrong about this. Why am I not surprised?The people who tell the TSA "I do not consent to a search" might get dragged off to a back room for processing, just like they are at the airport...LOL! People at the airport who get dragged off to a back room after not consenting to a search only do so because they still desire to board a plane, and through that security line is the only way they can do it. HOWEVER, at Penn Station, you would not get dragged off to a back room! SMDH! There are many other entrances to that platform! You just tell then I do not consent and I will not board here at this time. Then you walk away. Then you go to some other staircase down to the platform! LOL @ you!!!! |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 10:21:09 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 20 10:00:04 2011. Tell ya what...why don't you get into a line where they are screening passengers, and when YOU get selected for a search, challenge their authority by telling the TSA agents, "I do not consent to a search", and try to "walk away". You think the they won't find that "suspicious", and send the cops after you? |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Dec 20 11:11:06 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 20 10:00:04 2011. People at the airport who get dragged off to a back room after not consenting to a search only do so because they still desire to board a plane, and through that security line is the only way they can do it.Untrue. TSA has publicly stated that, once people get on the screening line at an airport (or at least, once they get up to the checkpoint), they have "consented" to the TSA search protocol, and they (TSA) will NOT let them withdraw that consent and simply walk away. It was in a news article concerning one of the conflicts that occurred at an airport between TSA and a would-be passenger, I think it concerned the man who famously said "don't touch my junk", though I'm not certain of that. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by BigBusDriver on Tue Dec 20 11:12:21 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 10:21:09 2011. Espeially with her UNIBROW! You could probably hide an RPG in that sucker!STILL LOL@'BOMBER' BREE |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 11:24:33 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Dec 20 11:11:06 2011. That's correct. Once you get into the screening line, you are committed. You can face severe civil and/or criminal penalties for "walking away" or refusing to comply with TSA orders or directives. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 20 12:25:56 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Dec 20 11:11:06 2011. Untrue. TSA has publicly stated that, once people get on the screening line at an airport (or at least, once they get up to the checkpoint), they have "consented" to the TSA search protocol, and they (TSA) will NOT let them withdraw that consent and simply walk away. That was my point! They are in the line because they want/need to board that plane and that's the only way they are going to get to do that. At Penn Station it is different. They are in that line because it is one way to board that train, but there are still others. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 20 13:40:45 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Dec 20 11:11:06 2011. Sorry, but I have to side with our resident troll, sorta:http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1049.shtm If you refuse to be screened at any point during the screening process, the Security Officer will deny you entry beyond the screening area. You will not be able to fly. You can refuse to be searched at any time, but you're not getting on the train. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Q4 on Tue Dec 20 14:39:41 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 10:21:09 2011. The TSA's are usually paired up with cops by the way. I see them quite often at Atlantic Terminal. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by BusMgr on Wed Dec 21 04:08:39 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Dec 20 09:19:08 2011. The whole point of getting the TSA out of the airport and into train stations and bus terminals, is to further condition the traveling public to OBEY.That's probably the point. Indeed, the TSA had nicknamed their program "VIPR" (Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response) presumably to scare the public into compliance with the vision of a dangerous snake that can inject lethal venom into those it does not like. True terror inspiration from the government to control the people. But in fact most TSA employees are not law enforcement agents. They can inspect, and not much more. If there is a violation such TSA employees must call for a law enforcement officer if there is a need to enforce a law. Now with respect to aviation, TSA has relevant regulations. 49 C.F.R. § 1540.107(a) specifically states that "No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter." But there are no parallel provisions relating to obligations of passengers using any other mode of transportation. If Amtrak requires passengers to submit to inspection as part of Amtrak's terms of transportation then there may be legitimacy for excluding passengers who refuse to consent. But as far as I can tell, TSA cannot, on its own, exclude a passenger. (Recall the incident in Savannah, Ga., where TSA employees screened passengers entering a passenger station after alighting from a train . . . afterwards Amtrak barred TSA from its passenger stations.) In the end, TSA cannot screen railroad passengers. The passenger railroad system works only because there are so many entrances and exits to the system and the trains, and the very essence of passenger railroads (and mass transit systems) is the ability to move masses quickly. Funneling passengers through security would destroy those systems. The efforts of TSA to the contrary are window dressing to appease those who want who are scared to leave their own homes (and who misjudge the relative risk of terror against slipping in the shower), and to keep the proles impotent. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 07:28:00 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by BusMgr on Wed Dec 21 04:08:39 2011. But there are no parallel provisions relating to obligations of passengers using any other mode of transportation. If Amtrak requires passengers to submit to inspection as part of Amtrak's terms of transportation then there may be legitimacy for excluding passengers who refuse to consent. But as far as I can tell, TSA cannot, on its own, exclude a passenger. Thank you for showing JayZeeBMT to be wrong. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Dec 21 07:39:44 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by BusMgr on Wed Dec 21 04:08:39 2011. >The passenger railroad system works only because there are so many entrances and exits to the system and the trains, and the very essence of passenger railroads (and mass transit systems) is the ability to move masses quickly. Funneling passengers through security would destroy those systems.If done right, airport style security could be implemented at major transportation hubs such as Penn Station and still move the masses. Although certainly smaller than some US rail systems and stations, Israel Railways (622 miles total in the network, 340 trains on weekdays, capacity for 36,000 passengers a day, 51 stations total systemwide) has a "closed" system where passengers must pass through security checks to enter each and every station. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 10:30:42 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 07:28:00 2011. I'm not "wrong" nor is BusMgr saying I am. He wrote, "as far as I can tell, TSA cannot, on its own, exclude a passenger." Would you like to be the first to test that theory?IIRC, I pointed out in my post on this, that the TSA would send the cops after you if you refused a search and walked away at Penn Station, not that the TSA would detain you themselves. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 12:23:11 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 10:30:42 2011. No, you wrote: The people who tell the TSA "I do not consent to a search" might get dragged off to a back room for processing, just like they are at the airport...LOL! And it doesn't matter who would detain you. The point is that the TSA would not have reason to detain you, it seems. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 12:26:25 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 10:30:42 2011. IIRC, I pointed out in my post on this, that the TSA would send the cops after you if you refused a search and walked away at Penn Station,That's just as wrong, as I indicated elsewhere. You will never be arrested for refusing a TSA search at Penn Station, but you aren't getting on ANY train. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 12:33:55 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by BusMgr on Mon Dec 19 18:59:27 2011. I would like to find people who have told TSA employees, "I do not consent to a search." Amtrak's website says that if you do not consent, Amtrak will not allow you onto the train. Passengers failing to consent to security procedures will be denied access to trains and refused carriage, and a refund will be offered. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 15:23:56 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 10:30:42 2011. Many have tested the theory.I have seen people refuse inspection at Penn. They walked away without hassle. (If they knew what they were doing, they probably still caught their train!) |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 15:25:28 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 20 13:40:45 2011. Your last sentence requires and appendage: through that stairway. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:29:16 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 15:25:28 2011. Refusal to be screened, then attempting to enter the train from another stairway would be an arrestable offense |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 15:42:25 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:29:16 2011. That's 51 pages. Can you please specifically point to the text you are referring to? |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 15:51:04 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:29:16 2011. I don't see where in that link it says such. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 15:55:09 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 15:23:56 2011. They walked away without hassle. (If they knew what they were doing, they probably still caught their train!) Well that means that in this case, Amtrak isn't enforcing their stated policy. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:56:57 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:29:16 2011. Section 106. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 15:59:50 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:56:57 2011. Penn Station isn't an airport. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 16:10:42 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 15:56:57 2011. Section 106. Besides Penn Station not being an airport, as R30A already noted, that section is not even talking about passengers. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:17:33 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 20 13:40:45 2011. What the TSA says on their website, and what they actually do in the real world can be two very different things. My question to the Turtle stands: if he is so sure of himself, why doesn't he dare to actually test his assertions at a TSA checkpoint in Penn Station? |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:20:16 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 21 12:26:25 2011. Somehow, I think the Amtrak police would be VERY interested in looking into ANY person who refused screening at a TSA checkpoint in Penn Station, then started to walk away from the screening area. I seriously doubt their actions would be limited to keeping you off a train...I think you'd find yourself being closely questioned in the Amtrak Police station. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 16:36:19 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:20:16 2011. Well, Many instances have shown that you think incorrectly. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:41:56 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 16:36:19 2011. If you think I'm wrong, go ahead and challenge the TSA at Penn Station by refusing a screening, and see what happens. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by BusMgr on Wed Dec 21 16:45:15 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Dec 21 07:39:44 2011. I just don't see how an active inspection system could work, especially in New York City where the quantity of people boarding is so great. It is not just the total number of daily passengers but rather the "surge" that occurs during the afternoon rush hour that becomes very difficult. According to the 2009 Hub Bound Travel Report from NYMTC (the most recent available) during the peak hour at Penn Station there are 13,387 passengers boarding 17 trains towards New Jersey, and 27,926 passengers boarding 35 trains towards Long Island, or a total of 41,313 for that peak hour. In a Congressional Research Service report from 2009, there was an assumption of a magnetometer service rate of 300 passengers per lane per hour. This would require 137 inspection lanes at Penn Station, assuming that the demand was uniform during the peak hour (in fact, demand is not uniform, and depending on the peaking factor, the actual requirement might be anywhere from 150 to 200 inspection lanes). On top of this would be the x-ray machines for all the keys, coins, briefcases, etc. At best I see a passive system (but then passive systems may have difficulty pinpointing any actual threats discovered). |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 16:48:22 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:41:56 2011. I have seen a person ahead of me do so. Nothing happened except they were told they couldn't go down the escalator. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 17:24:58 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by R30A on Wed Dec 21 16:48:22 2011. What's funny is that you've already said that you've seen people refuse yet JayZeeBMT is acting like you've never said that. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 17:28:09 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:17:33 2011. What the TSA says on their website, and what they actually do in the real world can be two very different things. Um, what are you claiming the TSA says on their website and what are you claiming they actually do in the real world? if he is so sure of himself, why doesn't he dare to actually test his assertions at a TSA checkpoint in Penn Station? What do you think that I think that I am so sure of? |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Dec 21 18:47:04 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:41:56 2011. If you challenge a TSA request, you simply are not allowed to proceed past the checkpoint. You can walk away and find some other area to enter Penn. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 18:48:19 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Dec 21 18:47:04 2011. If you challenge a TSA request, you simply are not allowed to proceed past the checkpoint. You can walk away and find some other area to enter Penn. That may or may not be true in practice, but it certainly is not true as per Amtrak policy. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Dec 21 18:49:10 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 16:20:16 2011. Nope. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 18:51:36 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Dec 21 18:49:10 2011. You are incorrect as per Amtrak policy, if not in actual practice. Thus you can no guarantee that you would be able to freely walk away and still board an Amtrak train. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Dec 21 18:54:11 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 10:30:42 2011. You are incorrect.Anyone refusing a bag search conducted by the NYPD and/or TSA is denied entry past said checkpoint. They are allowed to walk away from the area unchallenged. Where the checkpoint occurs depends on how smart you are and the mode of transportation. Ferry Terminals and airports are impossible to legally circumvent around the checkpoint. Rail facilities are much easier, especially when Penn Station has many ways to enter and leave. Don't want a bag search at a subway station? No problem, walk to a different entrance, another subway station nearby or use a bus. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 21 18:58:47 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Dec 21 18:54:11 2011. You are incorrect.We are not talking about the NYPD. We are talking about the TSA. We are not talking about other modes of transportation like ferry boats. We are talking about trains. We are not talking about subway stations. We are talking about Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station in New York City. Anything you posted that was relevant to this discussion is incorrect (or not necessarily correct) and everything else that you posted is irrelevant to this discussion. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Dec 21 19:12:25 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Dec 21 10:30:42 2011. im sorry,brah..but they wont detain you..they wont allow you to board...if you act "funny" or belligerent,there IS a very good chance Amtrak Police will want to talk to you. |
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Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Dec 21 19:18:22 2011, in response to Re: TSA Screening at Penn Station Today, posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 20 08:10:49 2011. Because a good-natured post deserves a good-natured response. |
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