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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Jan 21 12:17:52 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 21 12:12:56 2011.

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Only on fan trips, and only with later SMEEs.

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jan 21 12:24:51 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Jan 21 11:26:43 2011.

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If the Brighton was the #1 what was the IRTSeventh Avenue Local called?

There were two separate numbering systems for the BMT and IRT routes.
The BMT numbering system dates back to at least 1925 and the "D" Type-Triplexes were the BMT cars to carry route numbers. The IRT numbering system dates to 1947 when the R-12 cars were delivered.

The BMT numbers were:
# 1 - Brighton
# 2 - 4th Avenue
# 3 - West End
# 4 - Sea Beach
# 5 - Culver
# 6 - 5th Avenue (Bklyn)(El)
# 7 - Franklin Avenue (Also Brighton-Franklin and Franklin-Nassau)
# 8 - Astoria (Shuttle)
# 9 - Flushing (Shuttle)
# 10 - Myrtle Avenue - Chambers Street
# 11 - Myrtle Avenue (El)
# 12 - Lexington Avenue (Bklyn) (El)
# 13 - Fulton Street (El)
# 14 - Broadway - Brooklyn (aka Broadway Short Line)
# 15 - Jamaica
# 16 - 14 Street

The IRT numbers were
# 1 - Broadway - 7th Avenue
# 2 - 7th Avenue - Bronx
# 3 - 7th Avenue - Lenox
# 4 - Lexington - Jerome
# 5 - Lexington - White Plains Road
# 6 - Lexington - Pelham
# 7 - Flushing
# 8 - Astoria
# 9 - Dyre Avenue

From 1923 to 1949 the Flushing Line (Corona Line until 1928) and the Astoria Line were jointly operated by the BMT and the IRT. This joint
operation began before the BMT had started to assign route numbers and once it did they cars that ran on these lines, Gates and later Q's did not carry route numbers anyway. The first IRT cars to carry route numbers were the R-12's and they began service on the Flushing Line in July 1948. So for a 13 month period until the end of joint service in October 1949 you had BMT #8 and IRT #8 trains service the Astoria Line and BMT #9 and IRT # 7 trains serving the Flushing Line.

IRT Route 8 was assigned to the 3rd Avenue El trains in November 1967 until that line was discontinued in April 1973.

IRT Route 9 was used by the Dyre Avenue- 180 Street Local trains until
April 1965 when the entire service became part of the #5 Line. Through service to Manhattan by # 2 trains had begun in May 1957 and ran from about 6AM to 8PM. The late night shuttles continued to carry #9 signs.

IRT Route 9 was also used by alternate Broadway-7 Avenue Local trains from 1989 to 2005 when skip-stop service was in use on the Broadway Line north of 137 Street.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Ed Alfonsin on Fri Jan 21 12:44:52 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jan 21 12:24:51 2011.

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Larry, RedbirdR33 gives some good information.

The BMT numbers were in use in printed material and were officially re-approved by the Public Service Commission around 1925, with "-Canarsie" added to number 16 around that time. Until R-1s were used in Fourth Avenue service to Astoria, no numbers were used on either IRT or BMT service to Astoria.

The IRT numbers were a Board of Transportation invention after WWII when the decision was made to have a smaller version of the R-10 for IRT lines (R-12 and R-14)--I've heard that the B of T and the City claimed that as a municipal agency they were no longer subject to PSC regulation. I don't know if the State (PSC) ever challenged the City--if so, they lost.

Reminds me of the ongoing question of who actually owns the subway system, regardless of how construction may be funded.

Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jan 21 12:47:40 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Howard Fein on Fri Jan 21 12:04:51 2011.

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Given that the BMT switched from numbers to letters on the Southern Division in 1960,

Howard, actually they didn't switch. From November 1960 when the R-27 began service on the Brighton Line until November 1967 when the Chrystie Street Line opened all three systems of route identification were in effect on the Southern Division. The R-27/30/30A/32A and 32's used route letters. The D Types until July 1965 and the R-11's after that used route numbers and the Standards simply used route names.

The "QB" Broadway-Brighton Local via Bridge was indeed in use by local trains running between Astoria and Coney Island, M-F from 8PM to 6AM and at all times on weekends. The daytime local service between the same two points was the "QT."

Until April 1962 Saturday #1 Brighton Express trains ran between Astoria and Coney Island via bridge. They ran local in Manhattan but express in Brooklyn. The 1961 TA Map identifies these trains as "Brighton Express". I assume that R-27's ran in this service but I do
not know if they carried "Q" or "QB" signs.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jan 21 12:59:38 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Fri Jan 21 12:44:52 2011.

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The BMT numbers were in use in printed material and were officially re-approved by the Public Service Commission around 1925, with "-Canarsie" added to number 16 around that time. Until R-1s were used in Fourth Avenue service to Astoria, no numbers were used on either IRT or BMT service to Astoria.

Ed. Thank you. AS you know when the route numbers were assigned circa 1925 the 14 Street Subway and the Canarsie Line were two physically separate lines. The 14 Street Line ran only between 8 Avenue and Montrose Avenue. The Canarsie Line was operated by the #14 Bway-Bklyn Locals. When the two lines were finally connected in 1928 they were most often referred to as the 14 Street-Canarsie Line. Interestingly the TA now designates all "subway" stations on the 14 Street Line as the "Canarsie" Line. This appears on red signs posted at the end of each platform in the subway stations. Its gives a track diagram with designations and shows the locations of the nearest emergency exits.

Larry, RedbirdR33


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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 21 13:23:34 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by ModelRider on Thu Jan 20 17:44:43 2011.

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Try saying that fast five times.:)

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 21 13:25:32 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 21 11:55:34 2011.

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My very first subway ride was on a shiny new R-32 Norton train on July 21, 1965. I liked the R-32s right from the start.

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 21 13:26:10 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Howard Fein on Fri Jan 21 11:50:40 2011.

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Yes, the R-32s took over base service on the AA, B and D lines immediately after Chrystie St. I remember it well.

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 21 13:27:33 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jan 21 12:47:40 2011.

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Didn't the QB evolve from the so-called Theater Special?

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jan 21 13:29:18 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Jan 21 12:59:38 2011.

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I saw a list of BMT route numbers prior to the Larry being completed and the 14 was listed as, Broadway-Canarsie. 15 was Broadway-Jamaica.

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Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton

Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Jan 21 15:23:17 2011, in response to Re: Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 21 11:55:34 2011.

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The brand new 32s also ran on the M Brighton Nassau specials. I rode on quite a few.

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