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(763886)

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NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 09:33:22 2011

Today is the day when NASA is set to make it's announcement of where the retired Space Shuttle fleet is to locate. Look for cities that have either nothing to do with human spaceflight or had been a hindrance to the program.
Will the obvious choices of Florida, Texas, and one gulf state(Alabama) be ruled out?

(763947)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Apr 12 11:13:16 2011, in response to NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 09:33:22 2011.

I heard that the Intrepid Sea, Air, and Space Museum may receive the Enterprise.

(763949)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Apr 12 11:15:21 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Apr 12 11:13:16 2011.

Yes, The Enterprise is coming to NYC. :)

(763958)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:51:09 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Apr 12 11:15:21 2011.

Awesome, the place most hampering to the space program gets the prototype. I'm happy it ain't the last 3 real ones. You can have it.

(763961)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:55:44 2011, in response to NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 09:33:22 2011.

Titusville Mayor Jim Tulley. "To not put one here would almost be a slap in the face to all the people here who worked [on the shuttle]."

"If Texas does not get a orbiter, this is a less-than-subtle message from the White House that politics matters more than history," grumbled an aide to one Texas lawmaker
*****

Impeachment now.

(763962)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 11:57:09 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:51:09 2011.

How did New York City hamper the space program?

(763963)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:58:31 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 11:57:09 2011.

What did it do for it that was more deserving than the cities that built and ran the program?

*How did New York City hamper the space program? *
Also, the populations crazed voting patterns.

(763966)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 12:04:13 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:58:31 2011.

Intrepid is a major tourist destination, so itís not difficult to see that NASA would want to situate a shuttle there. Good publicity for any future programs (provided they construct the exhibit right!)

Unfortunately, some of the cities that built and ran the program are not tourist destinations, so itís not unreasonable that NASA isnít going to put retired shuttles where no-one is going to see them.

I would be surprised if Canaveral didnít get one, since it is a major tourist destination.

But crazy voting patterns? Really? Canít you dig a little deeper than that?!

(763967)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 12:10:13 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 12:04:13 2011.

I wouldn't put one in New Mexico...unless you can justify Vegas being close enough with the weird stuff they got already, but

"But crazy voting patterns? Really? Canít you dig a little deeper than that?!"
It speaks for itself. :)

(763970)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 12:12:34 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:55:44 2011.

What else is there to see in Titusville? Would a shuttle be an addition to an existing museum?

(763975)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 12:48:18 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:51:09 2011.

The only places hampering the space program are Marshall Spaceflight Center in Alabama and the ATK Thiokol plant in Utah. Unless your definition of spaceflight happens to be an enormous make-work project which ultimately accomplishes absolutely nothing. Obama's proposal for NASA's next authorization did more to advance American space exploration than any president since Kennedy, it's just too bad the Republicans in congress couldn't let go of their corporate welfare and pork.

(763979)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 13:13:01 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 12:12:34 2011.

Yes, the Kennedy Space Center, and about....off the top of my head 2 other space museums, plus a surfing area and an hour from Disney.
The birthplace of this all should get a symbol of the death of the program. Be rather silly to go around seeing every piece of space junk that had been launched, except for the shuttle.

(763982)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 13:16:03 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:55:44 2011.

Why would Titusville need a Shuttle when it has actual launches to bring in tourists? Or do you share the certainty that Bush's blundering of the Constellation program will bring an end to manned launches from LC-39? At least SpaceX will be launching people from LC-40 within the next four years.

And why would Texas want a Shuttle? Johnson has their Saturn V, and they have a few chunks of Columbia. If they wanted a shuttle they should have been more careful with the ones they were flying.

IMHO they should send one of the Space Shuttles on a tour of the newspace companies (SpaceX, Sierra Nevada, even Orbital, and yeah, ULA), as a prime example of what *not* to do with their new rocket designs.

(763984)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 13:20:57 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 13:16:03 2011.

You have violated almost all 9 types of logical fallacies.

"Why would Titusville need a Shuttle when it has actual launches to bring in tourists?"
What launches? I just see laid off people.

Have you gotten a chance to see the plan for the new rocket that's stronger than Delta IV Heavy? I cannot recall from memory the company name.

(763986)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 13:25:16 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 13:20:57 2011.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_space_thewritestuff/2011/04/spacex-unveils-plans-for-new-heavy-rocket.html

(763996)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 13:47:32 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 13:20:57 2011.

Given that there are only three Shuttles to go around, I'd rather see them go to places which do not have an enormous amount of Apollo hardware. I'd much rather see the Shuttle hardware spread around the country to potentially lessen resistance to increasing NASA's budget on the part of both the extreme fiscally conservative and pro-social polity left wing. And I'd certainly rather see them not go to the places responsible for the Shuttle program's major disasters and the utter failure of its replacement program to accomplish anything. As a result I think it is only right to not give one to Johnson, Kennedy, or Marshall Spaceflight Centers.

IMHO sending the Enterprise to New York was a mistake, in part because of its relative proximity to Washington DC and the Udvar Hazy Center. I'd rather have seen the Enterprise go to the Northwest, maybe the Evergreen Aircraft Museum in Oregon, or the Museum of Flight in Seattle. The remaining Shuttles should be distributed between California, the Midwest, and the Udvar Hazy Center.

Have you gotten a chance to see the plan for the new rocket that's stronger than Delta IV Heavy? I cannot recall from memory the company name.

Yes, I posted about it. It's an interesting development because most pundits and forum posters seemed to agree that SpaceX would opt for both the Raptor cryogenic hydrolox upper stage, and a 1 to 2 million lbf kerolox engine to replace the 120,000lb Merlin cluster before they went for the Falcon 9 Heavy. But now it looks like they're going full steam ahead on the Falcon 9 Heavy with 27 Merlin engines in the first stage, and possibly a single Merlin vacuum engine for the upper stage. The Raptor engine gives them a capability to make the single core Falcon 9 truly competitive with the rest of their field to Geosynchronous orbit. But it is somewhat unclear from SpaceX whether their description of the Falcon 9H is with a hydrogen or kerosene upper stage. If it is with a kerosene upper stage, then they have a huge margin for growth, perhaps edging on 70mT to orbit with the addition of the hydrolox Raptor stage. In any event, I suspect their choice to launch the Falcon 9H from Vandenberg may indicate that some of the heavy low earth polar orbit satellites the USAF has broadly hinted at in its desire for a heavy lift launch vehicle may be ready for launch in the 2013 timeframe.

(764003)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 14:04:25 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 13:47:32 2011.

This morning I saw an article on the newswires titled something about 'why is the program ending with no replacement' and it was about what you are saying. All the replacements were over-politicized and had been scrapped since in the gov't world, there already is a shuttle working therefore no point in thinking ahead.

(764046)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 12 15:35:01 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 11:55:44 2011.

Maybe Titusville will get a Shinkansen to exhibit, a monument to what could have been. :)



(764064)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Apr 12 16:06:34 2011, in response to NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 09:33:22 2011.

This is no longer about space flight. Its about tourist dollars. I assume NASA will get a cut of the money the Intrepid Air and Space Museum collects from tourists at the Enterprise display. And of course, there are many more tourists in NYC than in Titusville.

(764065)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 12 16:12:49 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 12:04:13 2011.

Like Dayton, OH. Who would go there to visit the shuttle? Nobody cares that Neil Armstrong and the Wright Brothers are from OH. If we were to use their achievements as justifications for shuttle placement, then the shuttles would go to North Carolina and the Moon.

(764075)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 12 16:38:08 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Apr 12 16:06:34 2011.

Perhaps but Cape Canaveral IS a tourist draw!

(764077)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Apr 12 16:40:24 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 12 16:38:08 2011.

And one of the shuttles is staying there.

(764092)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Apr 12 18:02:39 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Apr 12 16:40:24 2011.

Plus, the way things are going, its not going to be used for manned spaceflight for quite some time.

(764098)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 18:38:46 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 12 16:12:49 2011.

"If we were to use their achievements as justifications for shuttle placement, then the shuttles would go to ... the Moon. "
lol

(764099)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 18:39:27 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 12 15:35:01 2011.

Funny as I've been waiting to make an analogy of putting a subway museum in key west for this debacle.

(764100)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 12 18:43:05 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 18:39:27 2011.

Funny you should say that ... they actually have antique sandwiches in there too! :)



(764104)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 12 19:10:38 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 18:39:27 2011.

Let's rebuild the FEC to Key West and have Amtrak run there.

(764124)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 19:49:29 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Apr 12 18:02:39 2011.

Huh? Elon Musk clearly said that the atmosphere within the Dragon capsule would have allowed a manned flight. Manned SpaceX flights are really just waiting for a launch abort system, and until then they'll be flying enough unmanned Dragon cargo, and Falcon 9 satellite launches to really dial in the system. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a manned launch from LC40 within the next 2 years.

(764143)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 21:34:45 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 19:49:29 2011.

Manned SpaceX flights are really just waiting for a launch abort systemÖ

Öwhich surely is relatively simple, since the Apollo launch escape tower technology is immediately applicable.

(764161)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Apr 12 22:12:57 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 13:47:32 2011.

IMHO sending the Enterprise to New York was a mistake, in part because of its relative proximity to Washington DC and the Udvar Hazy Center. I'd rather have seen the Enterprise go to the Northwest, maybe the Evergreen Aircraft Museum in Oregon, or the Museum of Flight in Seattle. The remaining Shuttles should be distributed between California, the Midwest, and the Udvar Hazy Center.

I was surprised that NASA chose to remove Enterprise from the Smithsonian in Virginia and move it to the Intrepid Museum in New York and replace it with Discovery. I figured NASA would leave Enterprise there and distribute the working orbiters around the country.

I remember the day Enterprise was ferried to Dulles Airport. (11 18 1985) I was making a delivery to a bank on King Street in Alexandria Virginia. Two girls were walking towards me, I stopped them and politely asked them if they had ever seen the Space Shuttle in person, I got a puzzled look in return. I then pointed to the sky across the street and said "There it is".

Prior to landing at Dulles Airport the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft with the Enterprise atop did a lap of Washington DC over the Capitol Beltway, I happen to be in Alexandria as it was flying by from east to west.

John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.

(764175)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 22:54:00 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by johnl on Tue Apr 12 21:34:45 2011.

Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot being reused from the Apollo program. SpaceX's early animations of a crewed Dragon showed an Apollo-like tractor style launch abort escape system which gave the rocket a very Mercury/Redstone look. But their most recent releases indicates they'll use a liquid fueled pusher escape system which can also be used to provide on-orbit maneuvering and propulsive landing capabilities. It is possible a manned Dragon capsule will only return to dry earth, perhaps with a pinpoint landing in the California or Nevada deserts. But that outcome would likely require some testing, and chances are they'll fly the first few manned Dragons with parachute landings and the (highly toxic) hypergolic fuel for the LAS being jettisoned sometime before landing.



The Orion Capsule will use an Apollo-like tractor LAS, but it had to be designed to clear the debris field of an SRB. It turns out that when you abort a large solid rocket by blowing open its case with a massive 'unzipper' shaped charge running the length of the propellant chamber the fuel inside fragments into thousands of burning granules, some of which continue along the flight path. An Orion capsule's LAS may have pulled it clear of the explosion of its Ares I booster, but by the time the parachute deployed it might have been right back within that debris cloud of flaming aluminum perchlorate, which would pretty well destroy the parachutes and doom the crew. As a result the Orion's LAS is tremendously more powerful than the Apollo capsule's LAS, and will likely end up being quite overpowered for whatever vehicle it is finally fitted to, be it the heavy variants of the Delta IV, Atlas V, or Falcon 9, or the medium variant of the Space Launch System.

(764226)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by WillD on Wed Apr 13 01:22:58 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by orange blossom special on Tue Apr 12 14:04:25 2011.

Yeah, that article was somewhat entertaining, at least because it asked where the 'Space Shuttle 2' was, when that was perhaps the first space shuttle replacement program to be ground through NASA. It was an effort by Johnson Spaceflight Center to move from the as-built Space Shuttle back toward the designs of the early 1970s.

But in any event Mr. Hale probably knows what he's talking about, and plenty of other spaceflight pundits have said the same thing. We can finance the operation of a launch vehicle, or we can finance the development of the next launch vehicle, but we cannot do both at the same time without drastically changing the way we do business. The only time NASA had concurrent vehicle development and operation programs going was during the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo flights, and then they had a small fraction of the US Budget. Today with the outrageous cost of the Shuttle it is unreasonable to expect NASA to continue flying it while also financing any serious replacement study. All we got were a series of incomplete paper rockets which usually sounded pretty good, but were also usually a very long and painful engineering process away from the launch pad.

Part of the problem other than the money certainly must be the mercurial nature of NASA's politically appointed leadership. The Shuttle was only supposed to be one element of a full space transportation system allowing 'low cost' travel from the Earth to the Moon. Since then NASA's mission has been redefined by every president, sometimes changing within one presidency. This could be as simple as going from the 'support the USAF' mission of Reagan into George HW Bush's push for a post-Cold War exploration program, through Clinton's curtailing of exploration and focus on LEO space stations, and on to George W. Bush's resurgent push for exploration. In particular during George W. Bush's administration Sean O'keefe stepped down and took his fairly logical plan to replace the Shuttle with a mostly EELV based architecture which would grow into an exploration system. In his place we got Michael Griffin who cast the EELVs aside, and focused on the 'safer' Shuttle Derived rockets, an act which immediately made him the darling of the congressmen whose constituents benefit from the Shuttle infrastructure.

Now we have a different leader, and a different target, but by and large the hardware does not appear to have changed enormously. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the NASA SLS study groups. We may end up with another Ares V, or a brand new design for a Saturn V redux. It's unlikely they'll reach what I am rapidly coming to realize may be the best alternative: having NASA just get out of the business of building and launching rockets. But at least with the growth of commercial spaceflight we appear to be headed in the right direction. Once the commercial providers get up and operating they'll be far less susceptible to the whims of NASA's leadership, and so long as NASA still has some money with which to buy launches they'll be in good shape. Who knows, maybe the pundit's wildest dreams will happen and we'll see real commercial spaceflight, without a NASA subsidy.

(764316)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by SMAZ on Wed Apr 13 06:33:36 2011, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 12:48:18 2011.

Great post.

(936501)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 27 17:57:50 2012, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 12 13:47:32 2011.

As a result I think it is only right to not give one to Johnson, Kennedy, or Marshall Spaceflight Centers.


Kennedy is keeping the Atlantis in Florida if I am not mistaken.

(936608)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Apr 27 20:39:19 2012, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 27 17:57:50 2012.

Yep. Maybe I'll get up to see it one of these years. Ironically, when I visited the KSC in July 2000, the next mission was scheduled for Atlantis. Unfortunately, it was scheduled for September, so Atlantis (and the other shuttles, I guess) were out of sight, probably in the Vehicle Assembly Building.


(936613)

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Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today

Posted by Easy on Fri Apr 27 20:48:53 2012, in response to Re: NASA to announce undeserving shuttle winners today, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Apr 27 20:39:19 2012.

I was lucky enough to see Endeavor land at Edwards way back in 1994. (I can't believe how long ago that is already!) Anyway, the thing just falls out of the sky when it lands. "Flying" is an exaggeration. It maneuvers, but the rate of descent is astonishing compared to a plane.


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