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(726706)

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Re: Egypt Revolts

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 28 22:24:03 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 17:17:14 2011.

He was up against the same lunatics as the Shah. He did "fairly and honestly" far better than the Muslim Brotherhood did, getting 88 ineligible people into the government by running them as "independents".

(726708)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by WillD on Fri Jan 28 22:26:35 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 28 16:36:38 2011.

That said, this is what happens when Islam comes to countries.

Cause that's not ignorant or racist at all. Never mind that Islam has been there for ~1300 years and they've managed to get along quite well.

(726710)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 28 22:28:47 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 28 19:21:53 2011.

He can't. However, the MB has a history of associating with Nazism (National Socialism).

(726713)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Fri Jan 28 22:29:35 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 28 19:25:47 2011.

at mubarak

(726714)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 28 22:32:47 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 28 22:28:47 2011.

And they're secret Germans ... right?

(726717)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 28 22:36:37 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Fri Jan 28 22:29:35 2011.

And the rest of his "government." Looks like he has to do something right for a change if he expects to remain. Biggest problem for Egypt is that there really isn't any viable replacement. In Iran at least, there is ...

(726720)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jan 28 22:39:32 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 28 22:32:47 2011.

Actually, Islamists worked together with officials of Nazi Germany.

(726737)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 28 22:58:11 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jan 28 22:39:32 2011.

Yes, I'm aware ... but since "Islamists" aren't behind this, I'm waiting to see him tie the knot anyway. :)

(726754)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 28 23:53:02 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 28 21:09:55 2011.

and even the Brotherhood the Islamist opposition, they're last actual terrorist attack that they were involved in was in the 1960s and they're moderate by most measures.

Moderate only when compared to mass murderers like al-Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Taliban.
Even the Iranian regime is moderate by such low standards. That didn't work out well for the rest of the world or for the Iranians.
An Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood can call the shots is a world tragedy of epic proportions and must not be allowed to happen.
There will be nothing we or others can do if it does other than hope for the best and expect the worst.



(726756)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 28 23:57:04 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 28 21:24:39 2011.

If these dominoes continue to fall... but democracy (like in Tunisia) can blossom

Tunisia doesn't have the history, size, influence and internal political dynamics that Egypt does.
Comparing Egypt to Tunisia is like comparing Germany to Luxembourg.

(726757)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:08:38 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 28 18:07:05 2011.

Agreed but they are not Stone Age Neanderthals like the Taliban.
They are much more worldly and know what's going on. That actually makes them more dangerous.

(726758)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:09:43 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 28 23:57:04 2011.

Dominoes will continue to fall, and if the US plays this right they can have the last domino land square on Iran.

(726759)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:10:11 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:08:38 2011.

You're underestimating the Taliban...

(726761)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:13:35 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 28 18:07:58 2011.

Americans are tragically ignorant about geography, history, economies and cultures of other countries.

It goes like this:
Egypt = majority Muslim
Afghanistan = majority Muslim

Therefore the North African, Mediterranean, cosmopolitan, fairly advanced and educated country of Egypt = the Central Asian, mountainous, isolated, medieval and illiterate country of Afghanistan.

(726764)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Jan 29 00:26:46 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.

eh, you should see the photos of victims of 'freedom fighters' around the world.
Last week a columnist called Tunsia "exhilarating". It's nice how much the MSM salivates at blood and tragedy.

(726767)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:32:39 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:10:11 2011.

You're underestimating the Taliban...

No I'm not. You are overestimating them.
The capabilities of the Taliban are limited to the territories they are familiar with and would be nothing without the aid of other countries and entities.
Besides skilled warfighting on their own turf and rote recalling of the Koran they have no contributions to offer.
Their lack of geopolitical awareness, primitive networking, unsophisticated financing and insulated tribal mentality makes them a non-entity in the global game.
Compare that to the advanced and intelligent work that the likes of Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood have been doing all over the world for decades.

The Muslim Brotherhood would be deeply offended for being compared to the Taliban.
It's like comparing the Jesuits to the Branch Davidians.

(726768)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:33:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 28 18:06:06 2011.

Oil went down AFTER and because of the economic collapse.

(726769)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:37:03 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:09:43 2011.

Ummm no. If Mubarak falls, the dominoes are falling in Iran's favor.

Our problem at that point wouldn't even be Iran. It would be Egypt.

(726770)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:40:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:32:39 2011.

If the Taliban was as weak as you claim they wouldve been uprooted or their major leaders captured, also iif they had nothing to offer as you so claim then why was the US willing to negotiate with them?

The Muslim Brotherhood while Islamist in nature is far below the extremism perpetuated by the Taliban and / or Al Qaeda and furthermore like I mentioned before if you look through their history of attacks, which are few they're nothing more than an opposition party which tries to attract members by saying the current Egyptian regime is being propped up the US and Israel. But anyone watching the current events unfolding in Egypt can see that it's NOT islamists leading the charge but angry youth tired of an oppressive government which restricts their freedoms.

So who so we support?

(726771)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:41:35 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:37:03 2011.

Wrong, plain and simple.

(726772)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 00:52:57 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 20:02:39 2011.

If the revolt in Egypt is successful, we could see revolts in other countries where repressive regimes rule, such as Saudi arabia and Jordan.

and the Caliphate finally becomes a reality!! Yaaaaaaayyyy!!!



(726773)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 01:01:01 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:41:35 2011.

You are seeing these events as you wish they were instead of what they actually are.
It's a dangerously naive attitude. The last thing we need to do is to give these scum any ideas that those in the West are on their side.
It would be suicidal.
You are once again making the mistake (as are others) of conflating last year's events in Iran with today's in Egypt as if the players, the dynamics and the consequences are the same when they are in fact the opposite.

(726774)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 01:06:26 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 00:40:55 2011.

If the Taliban was as weak as you claim they wouldve been uprooted or their major leaders captured, also iif they had nothing to offer as you so claim then why was the US willing to negotiate with them?

Re-read what I wrote:

The capabilities of the Taliban are limited to the territories they are familiar with...

.....Besides skilled warfighting on their own turf....

(726796)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 06:34:22 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:11:36 2011.

Read a bit about how nearly half of all Egyptians live on less than $2 a day

It's called purchasing power parity. $2 goes further in Egypt than in fully developed countries.

(726797)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 06:36:33 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:59:43 2011.

So you don't condone the violence. Do you feel the same way about the American or French revolutions?

(726798)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 06:54:51 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by f179dj on Fri Jan 28 18:10:04 2011.

Too bad a large part of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico, else we could invade them too.

You think that's a BAD thing? If only we got all of our imported oil from Canada and Mexico.

(726799)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:03:00 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 06:36:33 2011.

The American Revolution was a war. The Continental Army was fighting for its independence from a tyrannical regime, and waged a military campaign as a legitimate belligerent.

The French Revolution, by contrast, was a violent uprising of the citizenry, and achieved its goals partially by summery execution of the French leadership.

I should point out that both your examples took place over 200 years ago, in a vastly different world than the one in which we live today.

I support nonviolent, peaceful protest as the preferred means to effect political change. Mohandas Gandhi employed nonviolent protest against the greatest empire in history, and it worked. Nonviolent protest places the onus on the opposing side to either resolve differences peacefully, or resort to force, which makes them the aggressors.

Dr. Martin Luther King achieved lasting social change here at home without resorting to violence. So did San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk. That bith men died by violent means tells us something about the power of such movements, and the level of force their opponents use against them.

(726800)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:05:27 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 06:54:51 2011.

Your thirst for conquest, to take resources by force from other countries is astonishing.

(726801)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:07:59 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 06:34:22 2011.

So you consider $2 per person per day to be an acceptable amount of money to live on in Egypt?

(726802)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by clearaspect on Sat Jan 29 07:17:19 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 01:01:01 2011.

You're indeed foolish. I do pity you. What would make you think that the people of egypt after overthrowing a dictator would want to have an iranian dictator guide them and their country? You're ignoring common sense. We cannot automatically assume that every revolution in an arab country is one towards islamists and and extremism. That causes us to support questionable regeims and that in turn fuels extremism. When our country says one thing in supporting human rights and equality... but supports leaders that do the opposite.

(726803)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by clearaspect on Sat Jan 29 07:17:45 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 29 01:01:01 2011.

You're indeed foolish. I do pity you. What would make you think that the people of egypt after overthrowing a dictator would want to have an iranian dictator guide them and their country? You're ignoring common sense. We cannot automatically assume that every revolution in an arab country is one towards islamists and and extremism. That causes us to support questionable regeims and that in turn fuels extremism. When our country says one thing in supporting human rights and equality... but supports leaders that do the opposite.

(726806)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 07:42:52 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by clearaspect on Sat Jan 29 07:17:45 2011.

Well the protesters tried to attack the US Embassy in Egypt, if that gives you any indication which way the wind is blowing.

your pal,
Fred

(726807)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 07:44:27 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:07:59 2011.

Yeah, if a subway ride costs a nickel, and cigarettes are a dime a pack and lunch costs a dime.

your pal,
Fred

(726808)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 07:50:16 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 28 16:36:38 2011.

Islam has been in Egypt for a long time and hasn't been an issue.

your pal,
Fred

(726809)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 29 07:50:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 07:42:52 2011.

Perhaps they should invite King Fouad II back and try to turn Egypt back into a constitutional monarchy.

(726810)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 07:52:09 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 29 07:50:55 2011.

Tut, tut, let's not bring the Kings into this.

your pal,
Fred

(726812)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by clearaspect on Sat Jan 29 07:54:49 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 07:42:52 2011.

Its not like we were exactly passing around democracy and pies...they sadly see the US as enabling the leaderships power. That's why the US has to make a gamble...do we stick with the current leadership or take the risk and abandon him. If Elbardei can become a viable leader (which is quite feasible) then we have an ally. Right now there is no clear leader to these movements. But the US is nothing more than a spectator, revolutions are a natural part of a countrys history. Its destruction and rebirth. No matter what we do its a gamble, but we as a country cannot say we support human rights and equality then support questionable leaders out of economic necessity. That's what breeds terrorism.

(726815)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 08:24:10 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:03:00 2011.

I should point out that both your examples took place over 200 years ago, in a vastly different world than the one in which we live today.

It's a "vastly different world today" IN THIS country. Other country's have other factors, some of which are similar to what we dealt with "200 years ago".

(726816)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 08:36:29 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 08:24:10 2011.

Egypt has not been a feudal country since the late 17th century, and hasn't been a monarchy since King Farouk, IIRC. Egypt most certainly is a "different country" today, than it was even fifty years ago.

(726818)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 08:40:56 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by clearaspect on Sat Jan 29 07:54:49 2011.

It's in the US' interest to stick with Mubarek. He is not the best example of a great leader of his people but the potential next guy is most likely going to be at least as bad and probably anti-US to boot. This happened in Iran in the 70's, it will probably happen in Tunisia after their revolt and will likely happen in Iraq as well, by our own hand in that case. At any rate, the Egyptian will still make 2 bucks a day tomorrow no matter what happens.

your pal,
Fred

(726820)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 08:45:26 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 08:40:56 2011.

We can't use what happened 30 years ago as a measure of whats happening now, we're in the age where people want freedom, internet freedom, freedom to express themselves. This is a revolt against the government not lead by an Islamist but by Youth hungry for change. I think if the US continues it support of Mubarek then we invite Islamist and extremism in.

We CANNOT have a foreign policy that is the exact opposite of what our country is supposed to fight for and believe in.

(726822)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 08:54:02 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 08:36:29 2011.

Yes, but you are not understanding what I am saying. They are "not" us, they don't enjoy the same current reality that we do. Just because "we" don't need a war to make our country they way we want, doesn't mean other countries don't too.

(726823)

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Re: Egypt Revolts, Iran Very Happy

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 29 08:54:33 2011, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.

Have a look at what the Ayatollah Khatami has to say about it. Once they come out in favor, and point out that this is an Islamic revolution, you know they're involved. (Iran's own Islamic Revolution was inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood.)

Ha'aretz

Published 13:58 28.01.11 | Latest update 13:58 28.01.11

Iran cleric: Mideast unrest replay of our 1979 Islamic revolution

Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said protests in Egypt, Tunisia show the era of 'Western-backed dictators' in the Arab world is over.

By DPA
The "aftershock" of Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution was now rocking Egypt and other Arab states, a senior ayatollah said in the Friday prayer ceremony in Tehran.

"I herewith proclaim to those (Western leaders) who still do not want to see the realities that the political axis of the new Middle East will soon be Islamic rulership and a democracy based on religion," Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami said.

"All these protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan and Yemen are inspired by Iran's Islamic revolution and these countries are de facto rocked by the aftershock of the Iranian revolution," the ultra-conservative cleric added.

The ayatollah said that the era of "Western-backed dictators" in the Arab world was over and the people have entered the scene with the slogan of Allahu Akbar (God is Great), which Khatami said.

A surge of popular protests over police and government repression and poverty swept Tunisia earlier in the month and sent their veteran leader from power, sending a chill through unpopular authoritarian governments across the Arab world. This first ousting has led to a wave of protests throughout the Arab world, with citizens holding anti-government demonstrations and demanding reform. Protests continued in Egypt for the fourth day, despite at least 5 protesters being killed in clashes with police since the protests began.


(726824)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 08:55:29 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 08:40:56 2011.

and will likely happen in Iraq as well, by our own hand in that case.

...and Iraq was "so" pro US before all this....

(726825)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 08:55:57 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by ClearAspect on Sat Jan 29 08:45:26 2011.

I think a post Mubarek rudderless boat is more inviting to Islamist than not, hence my strong disagreement with you. One strong point in my favor is that there are no leaders of the protestors; that's a bad sign right there. The American Revolution had strong leaders; this is simply pissed off rabble. I welcome the idea of peaceful protest but part company with anyone who thinks it's a good idea to toss Mubarek under the bus at this point in time.

your pal,
Fred

(726827)

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Re: Egypt Revolts, Iran Very Happy

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 09:02:05 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts, Iran Very Happy, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 29 08:54:33 2011.

Well it's not a big surprise that they would take credit for any potential change. I happen to agree it's very similar.

your pal,
Fred

(726828)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 09:02:26 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:03:00 2011.

If the Egyptian protesters established an organized army, then you would complain just the same. You just want to have your pacifist views without being unpopular and condemning the Righteous American Revolution.

(726829)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 09:03:55 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:05:27 2011.

What the fuck is wrong with you? How do you read a thirst for conquest from MY post as opposed to the one I'm responding to?!? Jesus Christ, even wanting to import (in exchange for money) natural resources from another country is tantamount to conquest for you?

(726830)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 29 09:03:58 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 08:55:29 2011.

Saddam was under control and manageable. And anti-Iran.

your pal,
Fred

(726831)

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Re: Egypt Revolts!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 29 09:05:06 2011, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jan 29 07:07:59 2011.

I don't know how much it actually buys, but saying "$2 per day" is not inherently low.

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