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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 19:56:41 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jul 10 17:26:43 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
And they weren't built by Israelites or any other slave labor.

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(957550)

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Gormogon on Tue Jul 10 20:00:05 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 19:35:56 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
But in this situation its not whole nations that are fighting the US to the death but rather rebels who are using the impoverished and uneducated to their advantage.

You mean uneducated types like the ones described in this article:

We examined the educational backgrounds of 75 terrorists behind some of the most significant recent terrorist attacks against Westerners. We found that a majority of them are college-educated, often in technical subjects like engineering. In the four attacks for which the most complete information about the perpetrators' educational levels is available - the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the attacks on the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, the 9/11 attacks, and the Bali bombings in 2002 - 53 percent of the terrorists had either attended college or had received a college degree.


Source:
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/akhwaja/media/madrassa/NYTimes.htm

The link between poverty and terrorism is likewise questionable:

Asked whether there were "any circumstances under which you would justify the use of terrorism to achieve political goals," the higher-status respondents (merchant, farmer or professional) were more likely to agree (43.3 percent) than those lower down the ladder (laborer, craftsman or employee) (34.6 percent). The higher-status respondents were also more likely to support armed attacks against Israeli targets (86.7 percent to 80.8 percent). The same dynamic existed when education was taken into account.

In another study, 129 Hezbollah militants who died in action (not all of them in activities that could be considered terrorism) were compared to the general Lebanese population. The Hezbollah members were slightly less likely to be poor, and significantly more likely to have finished high school.

Source:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/13/magazines/fortune/pluggedin_murphy_terror.fortune/index.htm

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 10 20:03:50 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 10 19:20:45 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry and as tempting it is to be persuaded by that argument, I do not agree with pre-emptive mass murder.

Physical liquidation of Nazis is not preemptive.
It's of people who have self-identified and have made their goals and aims crystal clear and who have already backed that talk up in the past.

Do you, by that token, believe that we should as a prophylactic measure, nuke Tehran?

No because the Tehran population is not composed of neo-Nazis,
Only a small segment of them are so.

That would indeed be a genocide.



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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:06:15 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 17:50:43 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Although attacking your own citizens with poison gas is monstrous, it is not terrorism.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 10 20:07:00 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 10 19:20:45 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank you for a credible, logical statement. I applaud you. Seriously.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Jul 10 20:10:35 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 10 20:03:50 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
f-16temp

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(957564)

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 10 20:12:37 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 19:35:56 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
When those "rebels" risk taking over a nation, true leaders will prevent that from happening.

Rockparkman was right on the mark about what Mubarak should have done as was I at the time.
Mubarak betrayed his own people by not acting.

Now only the Egyptian military can save that country from itself, just like the Turkish military had to do for decades in that country until true democracy finally took hold there.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 10 20:15:24 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 10 20:12:37 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yet didn't our president take the opposite view? Wasn't he in favor of the rebels overthrowing Mubarak, or am I mistaken about our policy in Egypt?

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:16:35 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 17:57:43 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
In essence every form of government makes sense, depending on the region, the religion etc.

NO!

But people's need for wealth and power will always triumph in the end.

Wealth and power FOR ALL is a worthy goal.

Communism in essence is excellent too

Absolutely false.

But Democracy as a government form does not suck, its just the people in the governments that do.

Since we haven't invented government robots yet, all governments consist of people, so this is a moo [sic] point.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:21:00 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 18:27:53 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
The people who voted for the Muslim Botherhood [sic] are not intelligent enough to benefit from any education beyond basic literacy.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 20:21:57 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:16:35 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Worthy goal when done in ways that do not involve criminal activities and I still stand by my statements. Every type of government serves a function specific to where it's at. It's not only truth but a necessity.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jul 10 20:24:22 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 20:21:57 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
in all this, you still have not responded to the story yet.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:24:42 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Gormogon on Tue Jul 10 20:00:05 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Great post. I love it when the conventional wisdom foolishness is challenged.

Also: Welcome to OTchat.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 20:24:53 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:21:00 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
They voted and they are free to choose who they wish to represent them. After we supported an oppressive regime who are we to judge their free will? Do you honestly believe that after years of Mubarek rule which western governments supported that Egyptians are going to simply forget? It's foolish to think so, they'll treat anyone supported by the west with mistrust it's only natural wouldn't you agree?

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 10 20:30:34 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jul 10 20:15:24 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
That's correct, and he's very friendly with the "moderate" Muslim Brotherhood, certainly friendlier towards them than towards Netanyahu . . .

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:30:44 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jul 10 20:24:22 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Who cares?

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Gormogon on Tue Jul 10 20:32:57 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:24:42 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank you.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:42:06 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 20:24:53 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
After we supported an oppressive regime who are we to judge their free will?

Because we're better than they are.

Do you honestly believe that after years of Mubarek rule which western governments supported that Egyptians are going to simply forget?

The people who voted MB don't care about things like that, they just vote for whomever their iMam tells them to. They obviously don't want liberty. Theocracy is entirely incompatible with it.

Besides, the people in Tahrir Square may have wanted Democracy but they were outvoted by the traditionalists elsewhere in the country.

It's foolish to think so, they'll treat anyone supported by the west with mistrust it's only natural wouldn't you agree?

If I were around in 1789, I'd rather have a candidate for president supported by the British Government than some puritan radical. Despite the proper mistrust of Great Britain at the time. Voting against your own interests just because they're also contrary to Western interests is childish. These people didn't vote against pro-Western candidates because of Western support for Mubarak, they voted for the MB because they actually prefer the MB.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 10 20:52:21 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:42:06 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Another victory for PNAC. :(

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Fred G on Tue Jul 10 21:02:35 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Gormogon on Tue Jul 10 20:00:05 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting links and welcome to OTChat.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 21:09:42 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Gormogon on Tue Jul 10 20:00:05 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Welcome to the boards, but I had anticipated this coming up, however the use of 75 terrorists to generalize over tens of thousands of terrorists is incorrect. The attacks you used were major attacks and required the most intelligent operatives to carry out the missions. Osama himself was born into a rich family. However I did not say ALL terrorists are poor, or uneducated.

As from the artricle: "Fighting Radicalism, not ‘Terrorism’: Root Causes of an International Actor Redefined Ömer Taspınar"

"The argument that socioeconomic deprivation is unrelated to radicalism and terrorism is erroneous for a number of reasons. First, the argument is based on a very narrow and exclusive focus on ‘elite’ terrorist leaders. As terrorism expert Judy Barsalou points out: “Effective terrorist groups rely on a division of labor between young and uneducated ‘foot soldiers’ and ideologically trained and well-funded elite operatives. In Pakistan, the former are often plucked from madaris.”11 It is therefore important to acknowledge that while terrorist leaders tend to come from professional classes, the foot soldiers are often poor and uneducated. One should also not be confused by the fact that at the highest level, the implementation of terrorist activity requires proficient organizational skills and sophistication. The poorest and least educated masses can be recruited and radicalized by terrorist masterminds. Yet, they would make ineffective terrorists in a complex operation. Indeed, the more complex an operation is, the greater security risks it entails, and the more likely the participants are to be elite—the result of a careful screening process. All these factors only reinforce the importance of addressing the question of relative deprivation, frustrated achievers, and radicalism as a social milieu"

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/articles/2009/9/summer%20fall%20radicalism%20taspinar/summer_fall_radicalism_taspinar.pdf

Then from the same article this must be pointed out:
"From Somalia to Afghanistan, from Mali to Yemen, from Chechnya to the Pakistani Federally Administered Tribal Areas and to the Philippine island of Mindanao, ungoverned spaces often attract terrorist networks that use these territories for two major purposes: (1) as a staging ground for international attacks, and (2) to recruit uneducated and impoverished young men with no prospects.14"
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/articles/2009/9/summer%20fall%20radicalism%20taspinar/summer_fall_radicalism_taspinar.pdf

Terrorists come from all over the world and all social-economic backgrounds, however there are always more foot soldiers than generals as they say.

To further my point about education, the US also saw it as important:
"Madrassahs, or Islamic schools, are a particular concern, for these train the next generation of jihadis and terrorists. Washington deploys several tactics to counter their influence:

In Pakistan, U.S. funds go discreetly to third parties to train madrassah teachers to add practical subjects (math, science, and health) to their curriculum, as well as civics classes. A "model madrassah" program that may eventually include more than a thousand schools is also now underway.

In the Horn of Africa (defined by the Pentagon as Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen), the U.S. military finds out where Islamists plan to start a madrassah, then builds a public school in direct competition with it."

and

"In at least two dozen countries, Kaplan writes:

Washington has quietly funded Islamic radio and TV shows, coursework in Muslim schools, Muslim think tanks, political workshops, or other programs that promote moderate Islam. Federal aid is going to restore mosques, save ancient Korans, even build Islamic schools…individual CIA stations overseas are making some gutsy and innovative moves. Among them: pouring money into neutralizing militant, anti-U.S. preachers and recruiters. "If you found out that Mullah Omar is on one street corner doing this, you set up Mullah Bradley on the other street corner to counter it," explains one recently retired official. In more-serious cases, he says, recruiters would be captured and "interrogated." Intelligence operatives have set up bogus jihad websites and targeted the Arab news media."

Both quotes are from the Article "Washington Finally Gets it on Radical Islam" from http://www.danielpipes.org/2546/washington-finally-gets-it-on-radical-islam

We keep focused on the few terrorists that do the major attacks, but not the thousands of foot soldiers that come from poor and uneducated countries. The US hasn't luckily and they are trying. But it was nice to see someone here counter me with actual articles. It's been a while!

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 10 21:10:04 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Gormogon on Tue Jul 10 20:00:05 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
welcome to this nuthouse!

Now identify yourself.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 21:12:19 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 20:24:42 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Read and Learn...

So about that foolishness you were saying... yeah... you're the foolish one now sir. Enjoy :)

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 21:47:31 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jul 10 20:24:22 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You haven't answered my question in the post regarding the life guard?

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 21:55:32 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 21:09:42 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
The foot soldiers are always irrelevant. It's always the leaders that we go after. Wars dom't end once a certain number of enemy soldiers are killed, they end when the leaders are either killed or they capitulate.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jul 10 21:55:45 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 21:47:31 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm just saying, your were so into this thread a year ago I was expecting to read your direct response to this story. no big deal.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 22:00:52 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 21:55:32 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm looking at Afghanistan and I can safely say ... you're wrong. We've killed a # of their leaders but when one dies they simply replace them. You cannot defeat terrorism like a conventional enemy and in that is where your logic fails.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jul 11 07:01:17 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Jul 10 22:00:52 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree. It seems as if the United States and other countries have knocked off about 100 "second in commands" of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 11 07:14:31 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 10 21:55:32 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
wrong..you can replace a leader,just like you replace a grunt.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 11 09:13:16 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jul 11 07:01:17 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
By using the term second-in-command you've shown how you're wrong.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jul 11 09:26:10 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 10 13:03:55 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Hopefully they'll use some of obamas stash to do it. Don't want ot be left out.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids

Posted by RockParkMan on Wed Jul 11 16:55:40 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Imams call for destruction of pyramids, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 11 07:14:31 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So you keep on killing the lice until leadership quality degrades. The USSR had the right idea in Afghanistan with "toy mines". Idiot Reagan had to give al Qaeda shoulder launched SAMS to beat the USSR. STUPID. If he had let the USSR "win" the lice would have flown Tupolevs into the Kremlin instead of Boeings into the Twin Towers and then Russia would get to show the world how to deal with radical Islam. BUT IT WOULDN'T BE OUR PROBLEM.

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Re: Egypt Revolts!; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 15 02:06:56 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Spellbinding.

link here

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Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 15 02:12:14 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts!; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 15 02:06:56 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
They won't care too much, because the man's a pastor . . .

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Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 15 02:55:41 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 15 02:12:14 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Clearaspecto and JayZeeBMT have left this thread. It's strange.

I think some people wanted all this to happen.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 15 04:03:18 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 15 02:55:41 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Well then, they don't want peace.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt

Posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jul 15 07:54:45 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; 2 Americans Kidnapped in Egypt, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 15 02:12:14 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
actually, the UMMAH had better rein in their troublemakers or they'll get THIS:
f-16temp

Coviliation will only take so much CRAP

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Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 25 23:31:09 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Jewish Journal

Egyptian actors, told they were on Israel TV, turn violent [VIDEO]

JTA | July 24, 2012
Egyptian actors on a hidden camera television show reacted violently upon being told they were being aired on an Israeli TV channel.

Excerpts from the show, part of satellite TV channel Al-Nahar’s special Ramadan programming, were translated and distributed this week by MEMRI-the Middle East Media Research Institute.

In one show, Egyptian artist Ayman Kandeel attacks the producer, who had identified himself as Israeli, and slaps the host, causing her to fall to the floor.

Realizing he has been pranked, Kandeel tells the host that she brought it on herself and offers to rub lotion on her back where she has been hurt.

Actor Mahmoud Abd Al-Ghaffar also reacts violently, pulling a producer by his hair and fighting with other staff members.

“If you weren’t a girl, the moment you told me you were Jewish … I hate the Jews to death,” he said.

“We are all Egyptian. Long live Egypt,” the show’s host says.

In another episode, Egyptian actress Mayar Al-Beblawi calls all Israelis whiners and complains that all they do is “continue to cry over the Holocaust, or whatever they call it.”

The show’s host later praises the actors, saying “I didn’t know there could be such patriotism, but it exists in every Egyptian who breathes the air of this country.”

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV

Posted by Fred G on Thu Jul 26 00:12:24 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 25 23:31:09 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
How do you know what they're saying and that it really matches the subtitles?

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Jul 26 05:53:01 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 25 23:31:09 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Good post. I posted about it yesterday.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 26 07:40:16 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV, posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Jul 26 05:53:01 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
No self-pity allowed; you deliberately made your post title obscure. I know that this forum ain't got no sticky feature, but things are still bumpable.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV

Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Jul 26 10:15:33 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts; Egyptian actors turn violent when told they were on Israeli TV, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 25 23:31:09 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Those democrats are really getting looney!

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Re: Egypt Revolts! Islamist Morsy "Retires" top Generals

Posted by RockParkMan on Sun Aug 12 16:39:05 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.

fiogf49gjkf0d
We need to step in and back the military here.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/12/world/meast/egypt-morsy/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

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Re: Egypt Revolts! Islamist Morsy ''Retires'' top Generals

Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 12 16:48:41 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Islamist Morsy "Retires" top Generals, posted by RockParkMan on Sun Aug 12 16:39:05 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
There are some indications that this was a result of negotiations and was related to incompetence in the Sinai. We'll see.

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Egypt Revolts; Military not opposing Morsi in wake of firing top brass

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 13 10:23:57 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Islamist Morsy "Retires" top Generals, posted by RockParkMan on Sun Aug 12 16:39:05 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Sadly, looks like Morsi fired just the right people in Egypt's military. The MB wouldn't have gotten anywhere without the military's support anyhow.

Associated Press
Aug. 13, 2012 9:01 AM ET

Egypt military shows no sign of opposing president

By HAMZA HENDAWI and SARAH EL DEEB
CAIRO (AP) — Egypt's military has shown no sign of opposing the president's surprise decision to retire the defense minister and chief of staff and seize back the powers the military grabbed from his office.

Nearly a full day after the order, no unusual military movements were reported anywhere across the nation.

President Mohammed Morsi's shake-up of the military took the nation by surprise. It has transformed his image overnight from a weak leader to a savvy politician who carefully timed his move against generals who stripped him of significant powers days before he took office on June 30.

The military appears to have acquiesced to Morsi's bold decisions. The official news agency quoted an unnamed military official late Sunday as saying there has been no "negative reaction" from within the military.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Military not opposing Morsi in wake of firing top brass

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 13 23:15:16 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts; Military not opposing Morsi in wake of firing top brass, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 13 10:23:57 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Good. The hard-liners are retiring. Democracy triumphs.

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Egypt Revolts; Morsi's power rivals that of Mubarak

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 14 18:01:37 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts; Military not opposing Morsi in wake of firing top brass, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 13 10:23:57 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Associated Press
Aug. 14, 2012 4:29 PM ET

Egypt's president has powers that rival Mubarak's

By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press
CAIRO (AP) — Egypt's Islamist president has given himself the right to legislate and control over the drafting of a new constitution. He has installed at the top of the powerful military a defense minister likely to be beholden to him.

Under Mohammed Morsi's authority, officials have moved to silence influential critics in the media. And though a civilian, he declared himself in charge of military operations against militants in the Sinai peninsula.

Over the weekend, Morsi ordered the retirement of the defense minister and chief of staff and reclaimed key powers the military seized from him days before he took office on June 30. With that, Egypt's first freely elected president amassed in his own hands powers that rival those of his ousted authoritarian predecessor, Hosni Mubarak.

If left unchecked, there are fears Morsi and his fundamentalist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, could turn the clock back on the country's tumultuous shift to democratic rule and pursue their goal of someday turning the most populous Arab nation into an Islamic state.

The Brotherhood already won both parliamentary and presidential elections after the uprising last year that forced Mubarak out. The question now is whether there is any institution in the country that can check the power of Morsi and the Brotherhood and stop them from taking over the nation's institutions and consolidating their grip.

"Are we looking at a president determined to dismantle the machine of tyranny … or one who is retooling the machine of tyranny to serve his interests, removing the military's hold on the state so he can lay the foundations for the authority of the Brotherhood?" prominent rights activist and best-selling novelist Alaa al-Aswani wrote in an article published Tuesday in an independent daily.

"He must correct these mistakes and assure us through actions that he is a president of all Egyptians," wrote the secular al-Aswani before warning that Egyptians will never allow Morsi to turn Egypt into a "Brotherhood state."

Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mohamed ElBaradei, the country's top reform leader, issued a similar warning on Monday. After Morsi stripped the military of legislative authority, and in the absence of parliament, he cautioned that the president holds "imperial powers."

The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF), which ruled Egypt for 17 months after Mubarak's ouster, dissolved parliament after a court ruled that a quarter of its members were illegally elected and claimed legislative authority for itself. It stripped the presidency of many of its key powers before it handed the office to Morsi.

The defense minister ordered to retire was the head of SCAF and the outgoing chief of staff was his No. 2.

SCAF issued constitutional amendments just before Morsi took over that gave the military control over the national budget and the process of drafting a new constitution. The generals also put themselves in charge of all defense and foreign policy, including the appointment of the defense minister.

But Morsi reclaimed those powers on Sunday, so far uncontested by the military.

During his campaign and the early days of his presidency, Morsi touted himself as "the president of the revolution" and spoke tirelessly of democracy. He pledged inclusiveness, tolerance and promised guaranteed freedoms under his rule — promises he has done little so far to fulfill.

Supporters of the 60-year-old, U.S.-educated engineer say he simply restored his rightful powers that the military grabbed from him.

"It is too early to say whether Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood are bent on dominating the state, but there are legitimate concerns given that Morsi now holds executive and legislative authority as well as having an avenue for intervening in constitution-writing," said Jeff Martini of the Rand Corporation.

Morsi's consolidation of his authority comes at a time when his likely opponents are too weak or distracted to challenge him.

The pro-democracy youth groups behind the uprising are in disarray. They lost much of the popular appeal they once had among the millions who answered their call to come out and protest during the uprising. Squabbling and demoralized, they may do little more than denounce Morsi just as they did when the military grabbed the president's power in June.

Morsi has counted on the support of the pro-democracy movement in his power struggle with the military. But many of the activists view the Brotherhood as politically opportunistic and obsessed with power, suspecting Morsi is driven by those same ambitions.

"Courageous presidential decrees have foiled the counter-revolution plots," Brotherhood stalwart Essam el-Erian wrote on his Twitter account of Morsi's latest stand against the military. "The president performed his sovereign duty and realized the demands of the revolution. Every revolutionary must support the president to prevent any attempt against the revolution."

The military is not in a much stronger position to challenge Morsi right now.

For decades the nation's most powerful institution, the military has seen its reputation tainted by the events of the 17 months when it was running the country. Troops clashed with protesters — sometimes shot them dead or ran them over. The military was vilified for its human rights abuses, dragged into chaotic, post-Mubarak politics and ridiculed in the media.

Morsi's bold order to retire the top brass further hurt the military's image, shattering its aura of invincibility.

Still far from being a spent force or a paper tiger, the military is now led by a defense minister who owes his job to Morsi. He is expected to fight to keep the military's traditional say in key security and foreign policy issues, but he is not expected to challenge Morsi's authority anytime soon.

Morsi succeeded Mubarak, whose 29-year rule saw Egypt evolve into a state where a confluence of powers — the presidency, the hated police and a coterie of wealthy, corrupt businessmen — held the nation by a stranglehold. Mubarak ruled unchallenged, his ruling party dominated, assured of sweeping every election even before the first ballot was cast. With the support of the police and the presidential establishment, he controlled every state institution.

Emergency laws were in force for all 29 years and dissent was tolerated, but only if it fell short of a concrete action to elicit real change.

Now Morsi is in effect both the executive and legislative branches combined. And his backers are showing some tell-tale signs of wielding power unchecked.

Last week, Brotherhood members of parliament's upper house named 50 new editors of state-owned publications, many of them known to be sympathetic to the group. The move tightened the Brotherhood's stranglehold on the media after one of its members took over the Information Ministry in a newly appointed Cabinet backed by the group and led by a devout Muslim.

Morsi and the Brotherhood remained silent when a mob of supporters attacked a media complex in a Cairo suburb, smashing offices and cars to punish critics of the president. Supporters also intimidate and sometimes scuffle with protesters outside the presidential palace.

And though he is a civilian, the president declared himself to be running military operations against radical Muslims in Sinai after suspected militants killed 16 Egyptian soldiers on the border with Israel on Aug. 5.

Morsi, according to insiders, is expected to press ahead with efforts to expand the Brotherhood's control.

He plans to soon replace many of Egypt's 27 provincial governors with Brotherhood members or sympathizers of the group and purge the judiciary of judges known to be opposed to its policies, according to the insiders familiar with deliberations in Morsi's inner circle. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared retribution.

"We are now rid of a state run by the military. What is left for us to do is to rid ourselves from the state of the Brotherhood," wrote columnist Mohammed Amin in the independent Al-Masry Al-Youm daily.

The Brotherhood will be emboldened by Morsi's standing up to the military as it prepares for new parliamentary elections expected before the end of the year and may press even harder to give the new constitution an Islamist tint over the opposition of liberals.

"There will be a firestorm if he interferes in the drafting of the document, but that he has the right to do that amounts to coercive influence on the process," said Michael W. Hanna of New York's Century Foundation.

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Re: Egypt Revolts; Military not opposing Morsi in wake of firing top brass

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Aug 16 00:06:30 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts; Military not opposing Morsi in wake of firing top brass, posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 13 23:15:16 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So you support the terrorists, then?? Can we call the FBI to haul your ass away then?

Before you say something dumber than that, read this.

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Egypt Revolts, deploys troops in Sinai without notifying Israel (blatant treaty violation)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Aug 16 00:13:00 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts!, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Jan 28 16:01:55 2011.

fiogf49gjkf0d
This is the beginning of the end of Carter's legacy here.

Ha'aretz

Egypt deployed troops in Sinai without Israel's prior approval

Egyptian troop movements come in response to the expanding power vacuum in Sinai.

By Avi Issacharoff | Aug.16, 2012 | 1:37 AM
The Egyptian army has been deploying large anti-terrorist forces in parts of the Sinai peninsula without informing Israel in advance. The peace treaty between the two countries limits the Egyptian military presence in Sinai.

Some of the Egyptian forces in the peninsula were sent there with Israel's consent, but Haaretz has learned that forces have also been deployed without Israel's prior approval. Israeli government officials only learned about it after the fact. Although Israeli defense officials declined to comment on the matter, they did note that there has been good security cooperation between the two countries, adding that there is regular contact between the two sides.

The Egyptian troop movements come in response to the expanding power vacuum in Sinai. On August 5, militants took over an Egyptian border post in the peninsula, killing 16 soldiers and stealing two armored personnel carriers that then headed to the Israeli border. One of the APCs exploded in the Kerem Shalom border terminal linking Egypt, Gaza and Israel; the other drove two kilometers into Israeli territory before it was hit in an Israel Air Force strike.

According to the 1979 peace agreement negotiated at Camp David, Egypt is not allowed to introduce tanks into certain areas of Sinai, including the vicinity of Al-Arish, to which dozens of tanks have been transported over the past several days. The treaty also bars the use of fighter aircraft, including helicopters, but that was approved retroactively by the Israeli security cabinet.

More than a year ago, Israel agreed to allow Egypt to maintain seven military battalions and six companies in Sinai, including tank units, in addition to the forces permitted by the peace treaty itself. Before the August 5 terrorist attack, Egypt had not stationed the full complement of troops in Sinai that it was permitted. Since the attack, the Egyptians have done so, but have also exceeded the terms to which Israel has agreed.

At the moment, Israel has decided not to respond to the unilateral Egyptian moves, apparently to avoid a confrontation. Nonetheless, it is seen as a source of future problems, particularly with the entrenchment of the Muslim Brotherhood's power in Egypt. The Egyptians could ask to have their current troop presence remain in Sinai until the end of their military operations there, although it is not clear when that would be.

The situation puts Israel in a dilemma. Just three days ago, Mohammed Gadallah, legal adviser to President Mohammed Morsi, said the president was considering amendments to the Camp David Accords to provide Egypt with "full sovereignty" over the peninsula.

Speaking at the Islamic Solidarity Conference in Mecca yesterday, Morsi stressed that for Egypt and Arab Muslim countries, the Palestinian issue remains the most urgent, and called on the Palestinians to unite their ranks.

This week, Egypt's Information Minister Salah Abd al-Maksud, a Muslim Brotherhood member, said: "Egypt will not normalize relations with Israel until occupied Palestinian land is freed." He added that "we are carrying out our relations with Israel based on agreements Israel has made with Egypt. Therefore, even if we request to change some stipulations of the Camp David Accords, the president and national institutions have stated that they respect the agreement." However, Maksud also said that "this entity [Israel] stole Palestinian lands, and for this reason we will not normalize relations with it until those lands are freed." The information minister was not asked, and did not specify, if the "occupied lands" include territory conquered in 1967, or all of Israel.

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Re: Egypt Revolts, deploys troops in Sinai without notifying Israel (blatant treaty violation)

Posted by SMAZ on Thu Aug 16 00:30:22 2012, in response to Egypt Revolts, deploys troops in Sinai without notifying Israel (blatant treaty violation), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Aug 16 00:13:00 2012.

fiogf49gjkf0d

FALSE!!

FALSE!!

I've read about Israel giving permission in several outlets last week.

They even coordinated some of the military action from the air together.

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