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Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Joe on Tue Mar 6 18:06:59 2018

The Daily News today, 3.6.2018, gave much space to the loss of life at Fifth Avenue and Ninth Street in Park Slope. The NY Post a few minutes ago posted a black and white video of the tragedy, the video showing the rear of the Volvo.
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From the Post story, it appears that the parents and children were crossing Ninth Street on the west crosswalk parallel to Fifth Avenue. The Post states that the driver went through a red signal and implied that it wasn't a case of blowing through on yellow-turning-red. North-south traffic had been moving on Fifth Avenue. Likewise, pedestrians on the west crosswalk probably had the crosswalk signal. No walker could have presumed that a car would come straight through the intersection at that time. Turning drivers (who themselves have a green) are big problem, but this situation involved a straight run and hit.

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Years ago, Peter Witts would have been giving close headway on Fifth Avenue. PCC's would have served the Ninth Street route named Smith-Coney Island. I think service on Smith-Coney Island was less than on Fifth.
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I presume that neither street is one-way. I presume the white Volvo was traveling downhill. It continue shoving a stroller down the block towards Fourth Avenue.


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 6 23:07:44 2018, in response to Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Joe on Tue Mar 6 18:06:59 2018.

Here's a link to a video.

The car collected several violations during the past year.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Mar 6 23:31:00 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 6 23:07:44 2018.

Truly bizarre. The car sat properly at the red light for a good 15 seconds. Then started inching forward with pedestrians and cars cleared in the intersection ahead. Maybe she did have a medical issue in this case, but her recent driving record suggests a different story.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 6 23:57:53 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 6 23:07:44 2018.

Some of those are parking tickets and irrelevant. The speed tickets and red light tickets are a different story.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 7 00:29:10 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Mar 6 23:31:00 2018.

Seizures

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 7 08:18:23 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 6 23:57:53 2018.

Parking tickets are relevant. They are a symptom of a disregard for rules that are designed to promote the general good.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 7 08:20:07 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 7 00:29:10 2018.

People who are subject to seizures are prohibited from obtaining drivers licenses for what should be obvious reasons.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 08:28:35 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 7 08:18:23 2018.

I disagree because you're not using this as an example of someone who disregards the general good, you're using it as proof of negligent homicide.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 7 09:04:04 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 7 08:20:07 2018.

If they're diagnosed or show signs during the driving test, sure.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 09:12:43 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 6 23:57:53 2018.

What I don't understand is how she could still have an active driver's license. I thought three moving violations and you're suspended.

Of course maybe she is.


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 09:47:59 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 09:12:43 2018.

It's cumulative points, not number of violations, that leads to license suspension in New York. In NYC, certain moving violations (speeding over 70 mph, for example) can also lead to seizure of your vehicle, but you won't get your license lifted unless you've built up at least 11 points against it.



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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 10:07:38 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 09:47:59 2018.

11 points? It takes six 2-pointers to lose your license? Wow. I thought it was a lot less. Maybe I'll do more speeding on the Thruway. :)



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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 10:27:56 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 10:07:38 2018.

It's been 11 points for as far back as I can remember.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 10:33:35 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 6 23:57:53 2018.

Ah, the Times points out that photo-based moving violations don't engender points on your license because they don't know who is driving.


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by SLRT on Wed Mar 7 10:35:32 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 7 09:04:04 2018.

If you have a seizure on the road and it comes to the attention of authorities you lose your driving privilege and it cannot restored in New York State for a full year of being seizure-free and medically certified.

Or so I understand.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 10:36:37 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 10:33:35 2018.

Unless you are foolish enough to try to fight a photo-enforced ticket in court.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 10:39:40 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 10:36:37 2018.

You can fight a photo-enforced ticket in court, as the owner of the vehicle, without making any representation as to who was driving. Photo tickets are assessed against the registered owner, as ALM correctly points out.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 7 11:53:21 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 10:39:40 2018.

Correct. While you have an extremely low w chance of winning red light camera summons.
But yes, it's against the vehicle, not individual driver.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 12:09:28 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 10:39:40 2018.

How would an owner fight a ticket without testifying as the driver?

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 12:10:33 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 12:09:28 2018.

Who says anyone would have to testify? You would attack the evidence.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 12:13:43 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 12:09:28 2018.

Because photo-enforcement tickets sit with the registered owner, one can tell the judge his or her spouse (or employee, for a commercial vehicle) was driving, and that the photo was improperly recorded. There have been cases where the camera was found to be out of alignment with the signal phase, which has nothing to do with who was driving.



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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 12:17:52 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 12:13:43 2018.

And in any case, since the ticket is against the owner, presumably you could admit in court you were driving and they wouldn't be able administratively to reissue the ticket to be against the driver.




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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Mar 7 12:24:51 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 12:09:28 2018.

The ticket is against the vehicle owner, no matter who is driving

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 15:51:38 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 10:39:40 2018.

Yep.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 15:58:17 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 10:33:35 2018.

Which is why every camera violation is unconstitutional and should be thrown out. You have the right to face your accuser in court, and your accuser should be a man, not a camera or machine. Some states have already began to get rid of camera violations because of that

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Mar 7 16:09:27 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 15:58:17 2018.

Down here, the city of Miami has gotten rid of their red-light cameras. Other municipalities have as well. One that hasn't is the city just to the north of me, which never met a way to dqueeze money out of people that it didn't like.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 16:09:49 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 15:58:17 2018.

How is it any different from a radar gun?

PS. I agree that there is no realistic way to defend yourself against a technology defect, but that's true for both the camera and the radar.


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Mar 7 16:10:15 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Mar 7 16:09:27 2018.

dqueeze = squeeze. Blah

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 16:56:58 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 15:58:17 2018.

The ticket itself is the state's case against you. You know that!

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 17:20:18 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 16:09:49 2018.

Sure there is.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 7 17:34:46 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Mar 7 00:29:10 2018.

Is there any proof she has one?


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 7 17:36:34 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 6 23:57:53 2018.

The car was ticketed, not the driver. Does anyone know if she was driving?


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 7 17:38:57 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 15:58:17 2018.

Heard that in Washington DC the cameras are everywhere and they are really taking in the dough.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 7 17:43:17 2018, in response to Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Joe on Tue Mar 6 18:06:59 2018.

Transportation Alternatives was trying to use this tragedy to promote their agenda for protected bus lanes. Then they interviewed idiots who recommended sidewalk extensions and rotaries at this intersection. A rotary here really? And a sidewalk extension would have stopped the driver? Come on now. Also, many had preprinted posters which let's you know the demonstration was well organized.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 17:54:25 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 7 17:43:17 2018.

That is a brazen example of exploiting a tragedy.

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ReI agree that there is no realistic way to defend yourself against a: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 7 17:56:03 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 16:09:49 2018.

I agree that there is no realistic way to defend yourself against a technology defect, but that's true for both the camera and the radar.

I successfully defended myself against a radar speeding ticket. It was on technological grounds.

I explained why the reading was wrong. I also showed documentation that my car's top speed was lower than the radar reading.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 18:07:47 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 17:20:18 2018.

How?


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 7 18:07:54 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by R2ChinaTown on Wed Mar 7 10:36:37 2018.

Foolish to fight and *lose*, at least. I don't know about NYC but some areas charge the same penalty whether someone blew through a red light, or stopped forward of the stop line at the intersection.

Best practice if you don't think you'll be able to stop in time for the line is to just blow through full speed. You'll get the exact same ticket but at least you'll get where you're going faster and with less wear on the car (and cost less gas).

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 18:11:49 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 7 18:07:54 2018.

I have frequently seen a cop in NYC chase after someone who ran a red. I have never in my life seen a cop here give a ticket to someone for stopping ahead of the stop line. Even in well-deserved cases where they completely blocked the crosswalk and made pedestrians walk out into traffic just to cross the street.


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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 7 18:15:54 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 16:09:49 2018.

A radar gun works the other way around, it reinforces a speeding violation first detected the old fashioned way:

Cop sees someone speeding and makes the judgement in their mind before even looking at the radar readout. They push a button to lock in the number, look down and verify that their estimate is within 3MPH of the readout. Only then do they bother to put down the donut and actually chase someone down.

I recently read a theory that you can avoid speeding tickets from bad cops by not braking when you see them. They've forgotten how to estimate speeds visually, so they reflexively hit the lock button when they see you brake. The worse part about this, is there might have been a faster speeder nearby, but because you're the one who braked, you're the one they're nabbing with the readout from the faster car!

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 7 18:32:37 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 18:11:49 2018.

Yes, because the cop-given ticket is lower for stopping over the stop line. In some places (I can't find the local article that mentioned it) the red light camera doesn't care and issues the same fine for both.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 19:11:28 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 16:09:49 2018.

The patrolman is the one who observed the infraction first, and used the radar gun as a tool to get an accurate reading. Then the patrolman has to stop the motorist and explain to him in person the violation and maybe hear the circumstances as to why he was going fast at the place. Maybe it was a legitimate reason. Plus, the police have the power of discretion and he can choose not to issue a summons if he doesn't want to.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 19:15:43 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Mar 7 16:56:58 2018.

What did Sgt. Shultz always say? What I'm saying and some states are saying is the cop has to be the one to present the ticket to you, not a machine or camera

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 19:17:19 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 7 17:43:17 2018.

ALL out-of-towners who were not born and raised here but now live here and have to cry about the big bad city traffic.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 19:17:48 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 19:11:28 2018.

My typical observation of the use of radar guns is that you come around a curve or over a hill on the Thruway and there is a police car a hundred yards away with a radar gun. He has no clue if you're speeding or not; he's too far away to judge. He pulls the trigger and if it says 78 or more he waves you over.



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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 20:02:43 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 19:17:48 2018.

But he's STILL observing you.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 20:09:25 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 20:02:43 2018.

But his observation cannot determine whether I am speeding or not. Only his radar gun, if accurate, can determine that.



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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 20:26:19 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 20:09:25 2018.

There's other tricks to the trade they employ.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 7 20:26:27 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 7 18:15:54 2018.

That’s true. And the officer’s eyeball estimate is admissible as proof of speed.

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Re: Children killed in Park Slope

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 9 13:43:05 2018, in response to Re: Children killed in Park Slope, posted by BILLBKLYN on Wed Mar 7 19:17:19 2018.

Which the city is causing with their own policies and then blaming those who choose to drive.

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