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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue May 6 18:33:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 6 18:25:05 2014. In reality, Hamas and Fatah are all about the NO-state solution. As long as they can keep the great unwashed masses angry and impoverished by blaming Israel, they will continue to be in power. And that is what they want. Do you think that thugs like Haniyeh are actually able to govern? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:34:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:23:55 2014. Easing their economic plight would go a long way towards diminishing the legitimacy of groups like Hamas.How is that going to diminish the legitimacy of Hamas? They're the organization in control of Gaza's internal affairs. All that's going to happen is that they're going to get an influx of money and business from those willing and able to deal with a known terrorist organization. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:36:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:13:17 2014. They may like the cathartic feeling of striking a blow against their hated neighbor, but at some point they'd better start realizing that this behavior isn't leading to a positive long-term outlook for them and their children, desperate or not. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 6 19:00:30 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Tue May 6 17:23:58 2014. That's his whole thesis. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:22:05 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Tue May 6 18:33:31 2014. You do realize you are trying to reason with the biggest troll on the board....nilet. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 19:57:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Tue May 6 18:21:22 2014. So Saudi Arabia is more to blame for not sending Palestine free money than Israel is for imposing sanctions? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue May 6 20:48:32 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 19:57:37 2014. Yes. Israel imposes sanctions because Hamas and Fatah use aid money to line their own pockets and to encourage terrorism by offering poor families money if they get a family member to become a "martyr", i.e., blow up innocent women and children on public buses. If the Palestinian leaders used the aid money as intended by the EU - on infrastructure, health care and education - there would be no need for sanctions.Saudi Arabia has no excuse for not sending the Palestinians money. They have billions upon billions. Unless, of course, they are well aware that sending them money will just make the Haniyehs of the world rich, like Arafat. See, people like you enjoy putting all of the blame on Israel because it gives you the chance to hate Jews while clothing your hatred in politics. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 6 20:56:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Tue May 6 20:48:32 2014. pwn3d. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:15:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 6 18:25:05 2014. You wouldn't know truth if it dropped an anvil on your head.You still owe me a definition for "liberal" and "conservative" by the way. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:16:53 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:22:05 2014. You poor soul.(You're already very much aware of how that comment is apropos but if any new arrivals are baffled, I'll explain the history if asked.) |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:19:20 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:34:39 2014. The idea is that when people are more economically stable, they will be better able to make informed and rational decisions about who to vote for.Although perhaps I'm being overly optimistic. Americans are (relatively) well off, and we still allow a known terrorist organisation to control our country. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:23:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:36:01 2014. There are a million things that humanity or some subset thereof had better start realising if we want a positive long-term outlook, but we have to deal with the species of minimally intelligent monkeys that we are and not the species of smart rational thinkers we wish we were.Israel and Palestine are both responsible for the current mess, but Israel is in a better position to start sorting it out. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:25:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Tue May 6 17:23:58 2014. What, you haven't been paying any attention?You know, given how often the intellectually impaired have accused me of lacking knowledge relevant to the situation, this is more than a little ironic. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:47:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Tue May 6 20:48:32 2014. Yes. Israel imposes sanctions because Hamas and Fatah use aid money to line their own pockets and to encourage terrorism by offering poor families money if they get a family member to become a "martyr", i.e., blow up innocent women and children on public buses. If the Palestinian leaders used the aid money as intended by the EU - on infrastructure, health care and education - there would be no need for sanctions.Bullshit. You're conflating giving money to Hamas with providing basic services to the population directly. If Hamas can't be trusted with the money - and it's pretty clear that they can't - then the EU (and Israel) are more than capable of building infrastructure and providing health care and education directly without getting Hamas involved as a middleman. Moreover, restricting the shipment of goods or the free travel of Palestinians has nothing to do with money and further reveals the lie that it's just about reacting to Hamas. Saudi Arabia has no excuse for not sending the Palestinians money. They have billions upon billions. Unless, of course, they are well aware that sending them money will just make the Haniyehs of the world rich, like Arafat. Saudi Arabia is under no obligation to donate money to Palestine. Israel, on the other hand, does have an obligation to not oppress or impoverish Palestine. You're comparing apples to oranges. See, people like you enjoy putting all of the blame on Israel because it gives you the chance to hate Jews while clothing your hatred in politics. And here we go again with the bullshit assumptions about what you think I believe. And this one is a double header— you claim (1) that I put all of the blame on Israel and (2) that I hate Jews. That's two straw men flagrantly mutilated just so you could pretend you have a sound argument. As a member of the Association for the Prevention of Cruelty to Straw Men, I must protest this senseless violence against our hay-filled friends. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:47:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 6 20:56:56 2014. You're not very bright, are you? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:38:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Mon May 5 23:03:16 2014. To many of them, accepting citizenship is giving recognition to Israel, which they don't want. Also, WRT your point about the right of return two posts up, the law of return only applies to Jews. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:42:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 20:24:02 2014. No one is being kicked out of Israel. The second country ensures that the people of BOTH types (Jewish and Palestinian) in this case each can be the majority in their own country. What's wrong with that?Israel can be minority-Jewish for all I care but has to be a Jewish state, a situation like the one in Bethlehem that requires a Christian mayor would work too, but I don't think you'd like that idea. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:43:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 22:48:02 2014. Israel has not kept Gaza in poverty. Ever look at a map and see what other country borders Gaza? Are you going to blame that country, too? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:45:51 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:25:10 2014. Care to explain how Israel is single-handedly impoverishing the Palestinians for the rest of us? Israel certainly has a role to play in what is going on with the Palestinians, but it isn't what you make it out to be. It isn't even close. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:46:59 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:23:12 2014. Israel and Palestine are both responsible for the current mess, but Israel is in a better position to start sorting it out. Really? If it is so easy, what exactly should they be doing differently right now? Methinks that Israel is currently lacking a peace partner, that's a pretty big obstacle. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:50:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 20:20:29 2014. I understood exactly what you said. You don't seem to understand the implications of your ridiculous statement. If you think what happened in 1967 has no bearing on the current situation, you have a lot of reading to catch up on, and until you do that, having a conversation with you about this topic is completely pointless. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:50:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 5 20:57:43 2014. The British. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:52:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 16:57:33 2014. Israel disengaged from Gaza before Hamas violently took over the territory. How has that worked out for everyone? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:53:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:19:20 2014. we still allow a known terrorist organisation to control our country.What organization would that be? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:54:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:23:55 2014. Palestine's elected leadershipMahmoud Abbas is now in the 10th year of his 4 year term. Elected leadership? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:57:04 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:15:49 2014. Your definitions are no better than Olog's. You're just 180 degrees from each other. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 23:02:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:47:14 2014. The Palestinians blew up all the infrastructure that was left for them when Israel disengaged from Gaza. They won't take Israel's infrastructure. Period. |
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Posted by Gamera on Tue May 6 23:09:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:42:21 2014. Joint Christian - Moslem rule of Lebanon didn't work out too well....Israel needs to remain predominantly Jewish |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:18:11 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:42:21 2014. The second country ensures that the people of BOTH types (Jewish and Palestinian) in this case each can be the majority in their own country. What's wrong with that?The fact that people are being impoverished/oppressed/killed in an effort to implement it when it isn't really necessary. Israel can be minority-Jewish for all I care but has to be a Jewish state... Why? |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:19:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:43:26 2014. You know, for someone who consistently accuses me of ignorance for not knowing the fine details of the region's politics from decades past, you seem to have very little idea of what's happening there now. |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:20:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:45:51 2014. Care to explain how Israel is single-handedly impoverishing the Palestinians for the rest of us?First, you need to stop beating up poor innocent straw men. |
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Posted by Gamera on Tue May 6 23:28:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:19:19 2014. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:31:46 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:46:59 2014. Depends on how committed you are to Palestine being a separate country.One approach would be to start building infrastructure (directly, not by giving money to Hamas and hoping they'll do it) and stop with the blockading and controlling. Alleviate the most pressing concerns of poverty combined with ending oppression mixed with a clear message that Israel will, in fact, let them have their independence if they knock it off with the thuggery. It might not work (after all, the region is pretty much defined by pointless animosity) but it's absurd to expect someone to be your "peace partner" while you are slowly starving them to death. Another approach would be to simply annex the territories, grant full Israeli citizenship to their residents, tell Hamas to take a hike, and then start building infrastructure and offering social programs because that's what governments do for their territories. Once conditions are less dire, then hold a vote on whether they want to remain part of Israel or become independent (and respect their independence if they vote for the latter). Either way, cutting it out with the whole "Jewish state" nonsense would also help; animosities in part influenced by religion will be aggravated by religiosity, the adherence to religion has never made anything better, and frankly, it's the 21st century, not the 12th— tying your identity to a religion is embarrassing. |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:33:11 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:50:28 2014. Considering your lack of awareness as to what is currently happening in that region, I was about to reach the same conclusion.If you want to explain how what happened in 1967 is relevant today, be my guest and good luck in overcoming your, erm, information handicap. |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:34:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:52:48 2014. Israel says they disengaged from Gaza. They also say they don't have nuclear weapons. |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:35:05 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:53:35 2014. They call themselves the "Republican Party." |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:36:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:54:14 2014. He wouldn't be the first dictator to be democratically elected and then seize power afterwards. |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:43:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:57:04 2014. My definitions are descriptions of how the word is used in common parlance. Olog's definitions appear to change as necessary; he takes the Humpty Dumpty approach to language. By repeatedly asking him to define his terms, I drive home the point that he doesn't really understand what the words mean, he has no consistent definitions for them, and his use of them is therefore semantically invalid.I wouldn't say I'm 180 degrees from Olog— we both have access to the same facts and the same evidence, but he got his head stuck in a bucket of doolally while trying to evaluate said facts. |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:44:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 23:02:33 2014. And the EU? |
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Posted by Gamera on Wed May 7 00:06:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:19:19 2014. Seems you fell for the Hamas/Fatah propaganda - here is another video for you..... |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:09:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:18:11 2014. The fact that people are being impoverished/oppressed/killed in an effort to implement it when it isn't really necessary. It is true that some aspects of Israeli policy vis a vis the Palestinians are problematic, but you continue to ignore the fact that Palestinian policy vis a vis Israel is unacceptable if a peace agreement is ever to be reached. Why? Because at present, Israel is the ONLY Jewish state in the world, and it is important that Jews, like other religions, have a place where their religion makes up the majority, their holidays are national holidays, their culture is the national culture, their language is the national language, and where they can flee to if they find themselves persecuted somewhere else. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:10:16 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:19:19 2014. Do you have any idea where I live? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:11:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:20:26 2014. There are no innocent straw men here. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:30:51 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:31:46 2014. Your ignorance is astounding. There is no way to bypass Hamas in the Gaza Strip, so that approach is a non-starter. I've already explained why annexing the West Bank outright didn't happen immediately after 1967 and wouldn't be a good idea now. Oslo was supposed to get us to a situation similar to the one you described in your second approach, but we aren't there for a whole host of reasons.I suggest you cut out your insistence that Israel not be a Jewish state, Israel was created to be a Jewish state. You show your true colors when you write "the adherence to religion has never made anything better, and frankly, it's the 21st century, not the 12th— tying your identity to a religion is embarrassing." |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:39:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:33:11 2014. Let's see, in 1967, as in 1948 and in 1973, Israel's neighbors attacked the country in an attempt to wipe it off the map. The various Arab states that fought Israel lost the war and lost territory during the fighting. Israel would have no problem giving back the land if it weren't for the fact the borders prior to the 1967 war were not defensible, as proven by the fact the Arabs were able to start said war. The 1967 war also gave Israel control of the Old City of Jerusalem, home to the holiest sides in Judaism. Although the Jordanians were required by the armistice agreement ending the War of Independence in 1948 to grant access to the Old City for adherents of all faiths, they did not do so. Today, Jerusalem is open to visitors of all faiths who wish to visit their religious holy sites. However, in the immediate aftermath of the 1967 war, Israel did NOT annex the West Bank, hoping to reach a peace agreement with the Arabs. Israel also immediately turned over the Temple Mount to the waqf, which isn't exactly a sign that Israel planned for this to be drawn out over 40+ years.Although the Arabs have lost each war they have started with Israel, they seem intent upon reclaiming the land they lost each time. A better solution would have been to not declare war and to accept Israel's existence. More recently, they have resorted to terrorism in various forms and many innocent Israelis have been killed as a result of such attacks. These terrorist operations have been authorized and supported by the PLO and PA on many occasions. You are highly encouraged to read more about this yourself. I shouldn't have to answer such questions, especially because many of us understand exactly what you are saying vis a vis Israel, even if you yourself do not. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:43:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:34:38 2014. Israel did in fact disengage from Gaza. If you expect Israel to not protect its border, you're a moron.Israel has not signed the non-proliferation treaty and has made no official claims either way about whether or not it is a nuclear state. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:43:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:35:05 2014. Just keep chopping away at whatever credibility you still have left... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:44:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:36:48 2014. And you seem to condone it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:44:52 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:43:40 2014. The fact that you consider Obama and Clinton to be right of center says all I need to know about your definitions of liberal and conservative. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:45:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 23:44:31 2014. I wasn't aware that Gaza is a member of the EU. |
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