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| (725908) | |
Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008 Another photographer was harassed at Penn Station. He was arrested and hurt by the police officer during the arrest - here is a link to his post about the incident.He has written letters to Amtrak posted here and here Quote: A summary of the incident is in the second letter:
In addition to Amtrak the letter has been sent to all of the following: Amtrak Law Department The Honorable Senator Frank R. Lautenberg The Honorable Senator Robert Menendez The Honorable Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton The Honorable Senator Charles E. Schumer The Honorable Congressman Frank Pallone, Jr. President Mr. George W. Bush Mary E. Peters, United States of America Secretary of Transportation The Honorable Governor Jon S. Corzine The Honorable Governor David A. Paterson The Honorable Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg The Honorable Senator Daniel K. Inouye The Honorable Congressman James L. Oberstar |
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| (725909) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Fri Dec 26 08:17:19 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. If he doesn't receive satisfaction on any level, there is something egregiously wrong.He should also contact the Regional Director of the National Press Photographers Association, Todd Meisel, at toddphoto@aol.com |
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| (725924) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by R PansePCC on Fri Dec 26 09:07:33 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. Sad to hear what happened to this man. I hope he gets a response from everyone that he wrote to and keeps the letters handy in case this should happen again. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (725925) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 26 09:11:59 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Bingham C50 on Fri Dec 26 08:17:19 2008. Amtrak is already getting sued for a substantial amount of money from a more serious incident in New Orleans. According to Trains magazine, Amtrak is paying out, plus a pass for some free travel.What needs to follow-up is that whatever cash loss Amtrak experiences from being sued be immediately charged back to the PDX budget with forced layoffs to make the budget whole to serve as a reminder to the rest of these pigs. |
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| (725926) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 26 09:14:46 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. Maybe he should also write to B. O. |
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| (725927) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 09:15:15 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 26 09:11:59 2008. What issue of Trains? |
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| (725932) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 09:32:41 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. Absolutely disgusting. I doubt he'll get what he's asking for, though if he sues Amtrak, they will probably/hopefully settle. |
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| (725953) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by kp5308 on Fri Dec 26 10:56:42 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. You handled yourself well.....keep us posted! |
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| (725956) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 11:00:00 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by kp5308 on Fri Dec 26 10:56:42 2008. huh? it wasn't him. |
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| (725960) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 11:08:25 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by kp5308 on Fri Dec 26 10:56:42 2008. Not me - I am quoting from another person's report. My commentary is in the third person using the word "He". The first person account is in italics. I even indented it and used the word "Quote:" to indicate that I am just reporting something that happened to someone else.You are not the only one to make this mistake - it seems that several times where I have posted stories that happened to others someone always assumes it happened to me. Maybe next time I should print big bold letters saying "not me" :-) |
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| (725970) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 26 11:26:14 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 09:32:41 2008. SUE SUE SUE! Amtrak doesn't need to be sued. This one cop, or whoever told him to proceed as such, needs to be suspended. |
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| (725971) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 11:28:25 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 26 11:26:14 2008. Um.......How will he get suspended? Most likely only if a lawsuit is brought, duh. And even then, he won't be suspended, most likely. But he hopefully will be reminded of the correct procedures. |
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| (725973) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 26 11:28:43 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 11:08:25 2008. Post a disclaimer. |
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| (725975) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 11:30:26 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 26 11:28:43 2008. He shouldn't really need to. |
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| (726014) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 26 12:59:22 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. Sounds like we have a jurisdictional issue here. I know Amtrak photo policy is that photography is allowed on Amtrak platforms and trains if the photographer has a valid Amtrak ticket. I'm not sure if this would technically include or preclude valid ticketholders for services running on or from Amtrak owned infrastructure. Common sense states it should, but you never know. |
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| (726019) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 13:31:39 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. Was he really taking pictures for a contest that hasn't yet been announced or did he think that would sound good in his story? It'd be interesting to know if he had participated in the contest in previous years or if he's blowing smoke. |
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| (726023) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 13:51:19 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 13:31:39 2008. Doesn't really matter. The fact that Amtrak holds these contests can be used as proof to show that they not only allow photography but encourage it as well. There are no signs anywhere in Penn Station that prohibit photography. Amtrak has a problem that it needs to address. |
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| (726025) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 13:54:08 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 26 11:26:14 2008. Yes they do - the harassment of photographers by Amtrak police is not an isolated incident. Incidents have also been reported in the Baltimore area and someone here mentioned but did not elaborate on a serious incident in New Orleans. It shows a pattern of behavior that needs to be stopped at the top and the only thing that gets attention these days is a lawsuit. |
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| (726027) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 14:01:24 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 13:51:19 2008. True, but it matters because it might tend to show how truthful he is. |
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| (726028) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 14:02:53 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 14:01:24 2008. His story is very plausible. Too many incidents are being reported on the net with respect to photography at Penn. |
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| (726037) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 26 14:33:26 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 13:54:08 2008. Is there any way you can sue without a monetary gain...other than loosing? Like, instead of the defendant paying out, some sort of other action? |
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| (726042) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Fri Dec 26 15:05:49 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 13:51:19 2008. The Rules of Conduct posted in several places in Penn Station do not mention anything about photography. They also say that they do not apply to LIRR-leased areas. But they do say that for a full copy of all the rules, go the the Station Master's Office. Perhaps we should look at those? |
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| (726058) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 15:45:37 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 26 14:33:26 2008. Of course. |
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| (726060) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 26 15:54:54 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 26 12:59:22 2008. But nothing could ever justify the police officer asking the photographer to delete his pictures. In fact, if the photographer was truly committing a crime, those pictures would be evidence, and the police officer would be asking for destruction of evidence.So if the photograher's account is true, the police officers are ignorant of at least part of the law. That makes it unlikely that they have the rest of it down perfectly. |
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| (726061) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 26 15:56:36 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 11:08:25 2008. You are not the only one to make this mistake - it seems that several times where I have posted stories that happened to others someone always assumes it happened to me. Maybe next time I should print big bold letters saying "not me" :-)It was totally clear to anyone who read what you wrote that this was not you. Look at your first two words. |
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| (726062) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 15:57:20 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 26 14:33:26 2008. Isn't that "punitive damages" as opposed to "compensatory damages"?Trainsarefun could answer better, but my understanding is that you have to at least have been wronged by some way in order to sue. You can't sue on behalf of someone else that doesn't want to sue for example. So I think that you get awarded at least some monetary compensation even if the punitive amount is much more. |
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| (726078) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 26 17:12:08 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 15:57:20 2008. You can sure for "performance" also. That is, you sue demanding that the other party take an action that they have contractually agreed to take. The court can say, yes you must do that. It's usually used to demand that a real estate transaction be completed, but sometimes it's used to make police departments obey their own rules or obey the Constitution. |
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| (726079) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 17:17:07 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 26 17:12:08 2008. Still one side has been wronged when that happens. |
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| (726081) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by kp5308 on Fri Dec 26 17:18:52 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 11:08:25 2008. Not your fault brutha'. This 'un is on me :o( |
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| (726083) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Dec 26 17:30:15 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 13:54:08 2008. I've never run into problems at Baltimore Penn Station so I wouldn't say the reports of problems there are systematic. |
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| (726085) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Dec 26 17:40:38 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Dec 26 09:32:41 2008. I'm surprised the Amtrak PD at Penn Station didn't their (rather expensive) lesson the last time this happened ;-)I e-mailed the guy with the contact info for Mr Fixit and let him know NJT's surveillance footage retention policy so Amtrak can't try to dck him over. |
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| (726086) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Dec 26 17:46:25 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. Whatever is involved NJT owns and operates all of the surveillance cameras from track 1-12 and they only have a 17-day retention policy. Notice needs to be served to NJT to preserve the evidence, Amtrak will just ignore the request until the footage is deleted. |
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| (726087) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 26 17:48:51 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. I'm sorry this happened to you. You'll nee a good lawyer and I hope you get one. |
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| (726088) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 17:51:39 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 26 17:48:51 2008. Huh? Hard of reading today? ;) |
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| (726090) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 26 18:03:19 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Easy on Fri Dec 26 17:51:39 2008. Room's dark...light inadequate... |
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| (726092) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 18:10:53 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 26 17:48:51 2008. Wasn't me - I'm just quoting what is being reported elsewhere on the interwebs.... |
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| (726093) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Dec 26 18:12:48 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 18:10:53 2008. I see now. |
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| (726097) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by hhp664 on Fri Dec 26 18:26:05 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. As a amtrak engineer i tend to ignore photographers unless they are in a dangerous or a needless place, or unless they are using the flash in my face. I will tell them not to linger take the pictures and then leave, when they linger it bothers me and usually makes other crew members nervous. |
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| (726127) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Neil Feldman on Fri Dec 26 21:01:27 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. There is no such rule that states that photography is illegal in public areas of Penn! The officers were in the wrong, and the person was absolutely correct in not deleting his photos. A complaint was the proper thing to do here! |
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| (726290) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 27 13:42:05 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 09:15:15 2008. I forgot where I saw it. It was PTJ 2008:4, #237, pages 8 - 9, by Walter Zulig.Amtrak Police General order effective 9/11/2007: "It is the policy of Amtrak that the taking of photos and/or videos is permissible within public access areas on Amtrak property". |
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| (726294) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Dec 27 14:04:28 2008, in response to Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 08:08:57 2008. How can they cite you for trespassing in a location you were delivered to by the railroad that you paid to take you to? Also, AFAIK, Amtrak's photo polocy says you can take photos from any public area as long as it does not become a clear safety issue. As an example, stamford, CT, is an Amtrak, MNRR, AND Shore Line East station which is commonly the site of railfan photography. I have yet to hear of a photog getting locked up there.I myself have traipsed all over Grand Central Terminal (sometimes even assisted by MNRR employees(!), who are proud of their historic station. I have never heard a peep from either the MTA or NYCT cops. I think these Amtrak cops were looking to build up activity numbers, as trespass is a pretty minor charge. I also understand (I'll do some research on this) that the police CANNOT force you to delete your pictures. This appears to be a direct violation of the First Amendment, according to my friend at the NY Press Photographers' Association, and BOTH of my regular SLN camera operators. |
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| (726295) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 27 14:04:44 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 14:02:53 2008. Absolutely:The problem is the same as before. We have too many people who are not that I call real New Yorkers (those like myself who grew up and have multiple generations of family there), and the transplants who have moved there in recent years likely are much more paranoid, and especially since 9/11 than those like myself who grew up there and think nothing of it (other than the extreme likelyhood that a terrorist is NOT going to take photos of trains they can likely find anyway if they really wanted to). It's those who are paranoid that is the problem IMO. |
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| (726319) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 27 15:25:15 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Dec 27 14:04:28 2008. I also understand (I'll do some research on this) that the police CANNOT force you to delete your pictures. This appears to be a direct violation of the First Amendment, according to my friend at the NY Press Photographers' Association, and BOTH of my regular SLN camera operators.And if they *did* suspect anything, you would then be destroying evidence. Ask them if they intend for you to destroy evidence? ROAR |
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| (726334) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 27 16:22:36 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Dec 27 14:04:28 2008. I also understand (I'll do some research on this) that the police CANNOT force you to delete your pictures.Exactly. If you were actually taking illegal pictures, like pictures of the GW Bridge support cables, they would want them as evidence of your nefariousness. By insisting on the pictures being deleted, they are admitting the pictures weren't anything important anyway. If you were a serious spy, and had pictures of the latest missile designs, eventually a judge would order the pictures destroyed, but only after they'd been used to convict you of espionage. |
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| (726355) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Dec 27 17:24:36 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Dec 26 17:40:38 2008. awesome, good work |
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| (726357) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Dec 27 17:25:17 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by BMTLines on Fri Dec 26 18:10:53 2008. wow. just wow. |
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| (726358) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Dec 27 17:27:48 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by hhp664 on Fri Dec 26 18:26:05 2008. You're talking about photographers lingering in "dangerous or needless places", right? Because with an Amtrak ticket for the train on the adjacent track, photographers can linger as long as they want without harassment. |
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| (726381) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Dec 27 18:09:34 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 27 13:42:05 2008. ??????? |
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| (726382) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Dec 27 18:10:49 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by AlM on Sat Dec 27 16:22:36 2008. If you were actually taking illegal pictures, like pictures of the GW Bridge support cables,Huh? Since when are those illegal pictures? |
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| (726383) | |
Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Dec 27 18:12:51 2008, in response to Re: Photography Incident at Penn Station, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Dec 27 14:04:28 2008. Also, AFAIK, Amtrak's photo polocy says you can take photos from any public area as long as it does not become a clear safety issue.No, Amtrak's policy is that you can be on a train platform if you have tickets for the train at that platform. And thus if you are thus allowed to be on said platform, you are allowed to take photos along that platform as you are boarding or detraining from said train. That is the policy for platforms. For the public access areas (station houses), I believe what you wrote is correct. |
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