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(513242)

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PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007

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The crossing at 6th & Main in Darby was recently replaced, as mentioned by Transit Chuck Green in several posts here over the past few days. It is now called the CSX crossing, but it is the B&O crossing to people my age.

The trolley tracks have ramps that meet the flanges and raise them up to the railroad rail level so the weight of the trolley is on the flanges when crossing the railroad rail. This allows the far heavier freight trains (now CSX) to have continuous rail.

overview looking down the B&O (CSX) right of way


close-ups showing the flange scratch on the CSX rail and the ramp in
the trolley rail bringing the flange up to CSX rail level



split second late photo timing


K-car 9014 crossing the B&O


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(513250)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by WillD on Tue Nov 6 22:16:54 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Wow, I wouldn't have thought that'd actually work. Nice shots of that interesting trackwork. Just out of curiousity, anyone ridden across it yet? Is it rougher than the old crossing?

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(513251)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Nov 6 22:19:45 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Bob, that's amazing!!!!

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(513254)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 6 22:34:14 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Very very werid.
I wonder what that sounds like.

There's a crossing in Plant City(named after the railroad) that's an intersection. That thumping is great when the freights come through.

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(513266)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 23:15:13 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by WillD on Tue Nov 6 22:16:54 2007.

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I rode across it at very low speed, as the 6th Street trolley stop is just a few feet from the crossing. At the slow speed, the crossing was not rough.

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(513286)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Nov 7 00:20:09 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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How does the trolley not derail? There is nothing preventing the flange from deviating from its path along the rail.

That is the new speed restriction that the trolleys have there. I have heard that those types of diamonds are only good for about 5-10mph.

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(513287)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Nov 7 00:22:31 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Nov 7 00:20:09 2007.

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It seems that at least one flange on each axle is still in the flangeway at all times.

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(513320)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 03:32:58 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Bob, has that been done anywhere else before? To me it doesn't look right, like that scratch would turn into a score over time.

your pal,
Fred

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(513345)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 7 06:02:35 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Thanks for posting those revealing shots! Now the fun begins?

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(513346)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by JBar387 on Wed Nov 7 06:07:00 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Nice Pics!

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(513348)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 7 06:18:03 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Thanks (as always) for that ... NOW I see what Chuck is talking about in his prior posts ... ain't much you can do there ... it's STILL the "class 1 railroad" that wins the argument under the law ... but clearly SEPTA *tried* to minimise the problem as much as they could ... TOUGH situation there, because with SEPTA scratching CSX' rails ... if there's ever a derailment there on CSX, it WILL be SEPTA who will be responsible for it if those scratches grow to a defect. :(

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(513352)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 7 06:35:41 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 7 06:18:03 2007.

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We will cross our fingers and toes and see what happens.
The amazing thing is that is the only trolley/railroad crossing in the United States.

If we had lots of money, and available land rights, we could ramp the CSX up and build a bridge over Main Street. Then nothing would cross each other? But that's a pipe dream, isn't it?

Chuck Greene

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(513364)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 07:18:58 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Nov 7 00:22:31 2007.

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That is correct, since it's not a perpendicular crossing.

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(513370)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 07:25:41 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 03:32:58 2007.

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Bob, has that been done anywhere else before?

Yo pal, what do I look like...an expert? I don't know whether that's been done before. A number of members on the Yahoo Philly_Traction board have stated that it's unique in their experience.

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(513374)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Nov 7 07:34:01 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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That sure is an interesting setup.I'll certainly make that a stop on a future trip down there.

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(513376)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 07:34:35 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 07:25:41 2007.

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As a matter of fact, Bob, you DO look like an expert. Now please 'scuse me while I go and atone for this grievous blunder.

your pal,
Fred

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(513379)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 07:45:00 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 7 06:18:03 2007.

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TOUGH situation there, because with SEPTA scratching CSX' rails ... if there's ever a derailment there on CSX, it WILL be SEPTA who will be responsible for it if those scratches grow to a defect.

I just got this email from a 40-year railroader who's on my rail photo email list:
This is a very interesting track arrangement. It will be interesting to see how this works long term. An old MW trick for cutting rail is to repeatedly pound a chisel on the head of the rail. It will not take long for the rail to break vertically from head to base. I would think that over a period of time the repeated pounding of the trolley flanges on the CSX track would act the same as the chisel.

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(513383)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by HarryP on Wed Nov 7 08:06:13 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 7 06:35:41 2007.

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The Rt 11 and CSX crossing in the Boro of Darby,is not the only Streetcar crossing in the USA. Actually, there are three other active streetcar/railroad crossings in the U.S.:

San Francisico's MUNI's Third Street T line has two active Railroad crossings in an industrial district in Bayville.

Last month, while riding an inbound T Breda LRV,the car I was on and an outbound car were both delayed for about five min., as a slow-moving UP freight was crossing third Street.

This RR crossing is located just south of the Islais Creek Channel Bridge, which the T line crosses on an unusual Bridge.

The other RR crossing is about a half a mile south on Third St. Sorry, I can't remember the exact location.

Tampa FL's TECO Historic Streetcar also has an active RR crossing with CSX, which AMTRAK also uses. This may be the only active Steetcar/RR Passenger crossing in the country.

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(513385)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 7 08:28:21 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by HarryP on Wed Nov 7 08:06:13 2007.

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Thanks for the information. How are the other crossings doing as far as wear and damage are concerned?
Shame on me for not noticing the San Francisco's "T" Line crossings. I was just out there.

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(513398)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Nov 7 09:31:10 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by HarryP on Wed Nov 7 08:06:13 2007.

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Cool, thanks for the info!

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(513405)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Nov 7 10:04:05 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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How does the trolley not derail that way?

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(513439)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 11:26:10 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 7 06:02:35 2007.

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Fun indeed. That gap is just too wide. Jeers to CSX for the el-cheapo and danger-incurring rebuild.

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(513442)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 11:30:02 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Nov 7 10:04:05 2007.

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Here's the general answer.

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(513456)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 11:45:49 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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Is that encroachment on the B&O ROW in the top pic . . . ?

I couldn't run the Royal Blue with a guiltless conscience if I did wrong to the trolleys, like that. CSX blows it up again . . .

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(513477)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by R Pansepcc on Wed Nov 7 12:48:15 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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I still smell a derailment with that setup. Great pics.

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(513481)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 7 13:16:47 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 7 08:28:21 2007.

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*How are the other crossings doing as far as wear and damage are concerned?*

The Tampa crossing is the usual type where it bumps real loud over the junction. Add to it that it's the biggest pain in the arse due to CSX.
Does CSX make Septa take out insurance policies that are worth more than the system, and then go through 3 dispatchers everytime to get permission to cross the tracks? Along with a visual signal.

They came to some agreement since that was the procedure, but it's still more than I see on that photo of the SEPTA crossing. Especially since once CSX cleared a TECO to cross, as an Amtrak was backing over the tracks. So that never worked.

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(513511)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Nov 7 14:26:14 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 7 13:16:47 2007.

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1. It's a street-running trolley line crossing the CSX's ROW. Why would that matter as long as the crossing gates are up?

2. No passenger trains run through there.

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(513515)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Nov 7 14:35:07 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 03:32:58 2007.

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Yes, there have been several installations on freight railroads where there existed a diamond crossing with a low-use short or industrial line. One example was on the Illinois Lincoln Corridor to enable 110mph speeds.

Typically diamond crossings are only good for 40mph speeds on the main track. This type of flange bearing diamond are good for the full linespeed at the expense of the crossing speed, which shrinks to 5-10mph.

On real railroads however the gap is much smaller than it is on this SEPTA crossing, usually just the width of the rail head and the flangeway.

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(513517)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 7 14:38:29 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 11:26:10 2007.

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I agree. While others have posted about the damage that could be done to the CSX rails, what about the damage that could be done to the trolley wheel flanges? I doubt they were designed to suppport the weight of the trolley.

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(513522)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Nov 7 14:56:52 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 7 14:38:29 2007.

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what about the damage that could be done to the trolley wheel flanges? I doubt they were designed to suppport the weight of the trolley.

Addressed here.

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(513531)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 15:12:31 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Nov 7 14:26:14 2007.

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  1. It matters in the case he's referring to, so it may matter in the case in PA. Plus, the flanges on SEPTA's streetcars were not built to take the weight of the streetcar itself.
  2. Significance?


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(513533)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 15:21:08 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 11:45:49 2007.

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Is that encroachment on the B&O ROW in the top pic . . . ?

Public sidewalk.

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(513536)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 7 15:34:24 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Nov 7 14:26:14 2007.

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Them be CSX tracks that one Amtrak a day so happens to back through on it's way to Union Station. It so happened that the incident I referred too was the one Amtrak a day, and not the freight trains...that streetrun downtown.

Second, it does matter. TECO doesn't have a crossing gate, but it's got a red and green aspect signal. That and visual confirmation wasn't good enough, they forced an expensive insurance policy. Added a dispatcher in a trailer, and required a supervisor to board the streetcar at the crossing, call the dispatcher, get the all clear, check the green aspect, and see that there's no train. Go to the other side, and drop the supervisor off for the next streetcar 7 minutes later.

Your septa crossing was grandfathered in. If something bad happens. Or the tracks break. Without proper state support, CSX could strongarm a possible cutback.

Second. CSX owns it's rails, and its tracks and pays taxes. I'm not familiar if it differs in other states. But that means they own the crossing. They own the gates, and they maintain all of it. Where I come from, they shut down the major roads anytime they want for repairs. And the City/State claims they can't do anything about it. So SEPTA is only jumping those tracks out of the goodness of their hearts. Obviously there's been plenty of problems at this crossing to have such an experimental set-up like they installed in the photos. Maybe they'll figure out something that works.

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(513543)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 15:41:51 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Nov 7 14:35:07 2007.

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Ok, thanks for splaining. I've seen some diamonds like up here in Middletown and also at Palmer MA but I didn't think it was flange on rail. I guess that even if the flange did score the rail or if the flange would wear by crossing it's not that big a deal?

your pal,
Fred

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(513544)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 15:42:48 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 7 15:34:24 2007.

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Your septa crossing was grandfathered in.

The trolley was there 25 years before the railroad.

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(513550)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 15:46:11 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 15:41:51 2007.

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I guess that even if the flange did score the rail or if the flange would wear by crossing it's not that big a deal?

see this post

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(513554)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 15:51:22 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Nov 7 14:35:07 2007.

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What's a "real railroad"?

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(513556)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 15:53:07 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 15:21:08 2007.

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In the distance, I meant. Looks like something was built where the other track used to be.

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(513559)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 16:06:53 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 15:42:48 2007.

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The trolley or the streetcar?

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(513563)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 7 16:13:41 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 16:06:53 2007.

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Exactly!

But that's what I mean. The "SEPTA" tracks were there before CSX were. They couldn't make as big of a stink like it was a brand new line coming in. So they were grandfathered in, in a way.

I have wondered why they didn't add a crossing arm on the TECO line too while they were adding all these layers.

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(513564)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 16:14:15 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 15:46:11 2007.

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Thanks, I saw that and it's reason for concern but a chisel impact seems to me to be a different application than a flange rolling over steel. Not that I'm gonna argue with the track dude lol.

your pal,
Fred

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(513571)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Nov 7 16:45:58 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 15:51:22 2007.

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There are many real railroads. There are real HO gauge railroads, for example, and real N-gauge roads. Tere are also imaginary ones I can imagine in my head (and you can in yours).

Take your pick. :0)

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(513572)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 16:58:27 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Nov 7 16:06:53 2007.

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Touché. Streetcar, of course. The B&O was there before the streetcars were electrified.

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(513575)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Nov 7 17:02:59 2007, in response to PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Tue Nov 6 21:55:44 2007.

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It's strange, because if the axle moved slightly to the side, the Trolley could derail. But anyway, the flanges wont get ruined on the trolley but hitting the rail like that?

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(513576)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Nov 7 17:06:01 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 07:45:00 2007.

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OK, but if the rail does crack, where is it going to go? It's embedded in Asphalt.

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(513577)

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 17:08:47 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Nov 7 17:06:01 2007.

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Asphalt is pretty soft stuff, most of the year.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Nov 7 17:09:14 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 17:08:47 2007.

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fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, in the Summer, yea.

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by Fred G on Wed Nov 7 17:11:26 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Nov 7 17:09:14 2007.

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fiogf49gjkf0d
In terms of structural material, it's soft.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 7 17:52:38 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Nov 7 14:56:52 2007.

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fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks!

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Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing

Posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Nov 7 18:00:11 2007, in response to Re: PHOTOS: B&O/SEPTA Route 11 Darby crossing, posted by chuchubob on Wed Nov 7 16:58:27 2007.

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fiogf49gjkf0d
You missed the semicolon. Touché.

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