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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 11:52:47 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Aug 14 11:44:11 2006. I would rather give my information (except my SS #, of course) in a truthful and open manner, all in the interest of security.Whose security? Anyone who refuses ID or does not give out information when requested, will (in the eyes of the NYPD) be viewed as a suspicious person. Too bad. They still have procedure to follow, and not giving ID does not meet the requirements of "probably cause" or "articulable suspicion", AFAIK. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by JBar387 on Mon Aug 14 12:04:42 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. I had some fool threaten police action on me A few weeks ago. Don't let it stop you from taking more photos. Always keep a set of the rules on you too. The offical MTA Rules of conduct is the Law not what the fuzz says. Keep clicking! |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by TeaBiscuit18thAveDude on Mon Aug 14 12:22:15 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 11:29:59 2006. Which is almost like saying "NO photography." That's how I see it. And that's how a judge would see it if a lawsuit ensues. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 12:29:30 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 11:09:31 2006. Yeahbut, cops don't just either arrest you or let you go. There's the 3rd option, that middle ground of being detained on the spot and having to endure more BS. Anyway, as far as producing the ID goes, to me it's minor and not a battle I pick to fight. As I said in another post, I've been arrested before and showing ID is a walk in the park by comparison. I prefer to draw the line in the sand where I feel it's more important, like over handing him my camera or deleting photos.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Aug 14 12:30:17 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. I feel like going down there myself to see what he will do if I took a photo. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Aug 14 12:33:11 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 14 10:58:17 2006. The ACLU is the ONLY group fighting for your civil liberties. The pEntagon wants to eliminate those rights. |
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| (296875) | |
Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 12:34:08 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 12:29:30 2006. There's the 3rd option, that middle ground of being detained on the spot and having to endure more BSYes, but the cop still needs probable cause or ""articulable suspicion" to detain you further on the spot. Since he has none that will stand up in a court of law, the right thing to do, and also the thing in his best interests to do, is to let you go. If he doesn't, you have lawsuit. Why should we miss taking a photo when we're being held for longer than the law calls for? Furthermore, if Jarid's cop was already violating procedure by demanding to see ID, you you or he and said no to handing over your camera, you think he'd just let you go at that point? Why let it get that far before you politely make it clear that you know your rights. |
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| (296879) | |
Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 12:55:59 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 12:29:30 2006. You must identify yourself to the police opfficer upon request.You do NOT need to show identification. I brefer a business card for this. |
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| (296881) | |
Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 13:00:09 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 10:59:33 2006. The officer is required to make a note of any official contact with people. Your cooperation with him while voluntary, helps him do his job, and it also helps him to decide that you are benign. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:00:40 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 12:55:59 2006. You must identify yourself to the police opfficer upon request.The following is from the link I provided at the beginning of this thread. If you believe the following to be incorrect, please explain. Further, I believe fairly recently that the US Supreme Court in a 5 to 4 decision upheld a state (not NJ) law requiring that a person being detained on an articulable suspicion furnish his/her name to the police on request. The basis for the majority opinion was that it allows the police to quickly lookup the person's record and determine if they should continue searching for someone else. I have not researched NJ law to determine if a similar law exists in NJ, but note that the case arose from the commission of an actual crime, not a legal activity such at rail photography. |
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| (296884) | |
Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 13:03:36 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 12:34:08 2006. My exchanges have been like this and I'll only list my end of the conversation:"Hello officer, I'm a railfan and am taking photos of trains and this station. I'm not with the bad guys". "I'm within my rights as section 1050.9.c states that photography is allowed in the system. I'm well aware of my rights and the rules, officer" At this point he either asks for ID or not. It's been my experience that showing ID ends the discussion. At that point I've already quoted the rules of conduct that states that photography is allowed. Besides, officer mindsets vary, and refusing to show ID can be suspicious behavior in his mind. You and I would think differently but we can't impose our logic on every officer. My strategy is to get the cop off my back as quickly as possible, and if showing my drivers license does that, it's a small compromise I'm willing to make. This is a game, and I'll lose a pawn to save the rook. I've never had an officer ask for ID as his first salutation. I've heard "photos aren't allowed" or something to that effect, but there's always been a small conversation before the ID is fished for. your pal, Fred |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:03:52 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 13:00:09 2006. That may be true. But the officer DEMANDED that Jarid provide ID and a whole lot more info. He tricked Jarid into thinking that handing over the ID and providing the info not voluntary. That is not proper. The proper way would be to ask "Can I see some ID?" and when Jarid said he was uncomfortable providing it, the officer should not have DEMANDED it. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 13:06:24 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:03:52 2006. Ah ok, that clears things up with me as well. I've always been politely asked.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:07:15 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 13:03:36 2006. That's how my two or three run-ins with the NYPD went as well, some not even asking for ID (IIRC). But my run in with the MTA Police lasted a lot longer, involved them running a check on my ID back in the squad car, and IIRC, me missing (or messing up) a photo opportunity. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:09:12 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 13:06:24 2006. http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=296830 |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 13:10:50 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:07:15 2006. ...me missing (or messing up) a photo opportunity.Well THAT's different. That's when they incure the wrath of teh G. The gloves are off and I don't care who gets sued! :D your pal, Fred |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Aug 14 13:17:15 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 10:41:16 2006. I didnt say that i just said sign of the times which is true.There is a few things that can done about it the officer should have been kept in line with the rules of conduct if he wasnt then he was in error. You dont think i know what its like to be harrased by the police beacuse im being profiled? |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Aug 14 13:22:49 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:09:12 2006. Where the hell did that post come from? I swear it's almost a full time job to follow these threads. Thanks for the link though.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 13:26:51 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Mon Aug 14 11:02:09 2006. If he asks to see the photos, ask him if he knows about your fifth amendment rights? |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:27:03 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Railman718 on Mon Aug 14 13:17:15 2006. I didnt say that i just said sign of the times which is true.But it doesn't have to be if people know their rights. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:30:05 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Aug 14 12:30:17 2006. I'm not sure how he was stationed though. Either he was already on the train, or boarded at High St. I think there's a police hut at the end of High St. (as it's the final stop before the water), so I'm guessing that he was stationed there, saw me taking photos, and boarded -- stopping me as the doors opened at Broadway-Nassau.He claimed that I had been frightening passengers though, so it's possible that either he: a) was lying, or b) received a call at a prior stop to be on the watch for me taking photos at High St, and if so, to question me at the following station. |
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| (296903) | |
Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Transit Guy on Mon Aug 14 13:31:24 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by JBar387 on Mon Aug 14 12:04:42 2006. Hello I am a photographer as well and I was wondering where could I get a copy of the rules? Thanks |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:31:31 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 13:26:51 2006. Not only that, but he first requested I hand him the camera to operate. Once I handed it to him, he placed it in his pocket and subsequently read me the so-called riot act. Only then did he hand me back the camera and make me show him the photos I had taken earlier in the morning. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Aug 14 13:31:42 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:30:05 2006. You know, some of these officers really have nothing else better to do. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:32:36 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Aug 14 13:31:42 2006. To be fair, isn't the hut at High St. on the list of spots to be replaced by a 24-hour camera? |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Transit Guy on Mon Aug 14 13:32:54 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 13:26:51 2006. Yea just say I plead the fif :D |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:34:20 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Transit Guy on Mon Aug 14 13:31:24 2006. Someone may have these in a better format, but this is directly from the MTA website:Rules of Conduct. I've often wondered if a full brochure exists outside of the 12/5/05 "new rules" I was handed upon request at Howard Beach earlier today. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Allan on Mon Aug 14 13:37:14 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:34:20 2006. I haven't seen a full brochure since the one that came out in 1995. |
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amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:37:15 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. The amNewYork Subway Tracker blog wants to know if you've been harassed for subway photography (see the link below). I would tell your story as a comment to that blog entry and also email a longer version of your story to the author of the entry.http://weblogs.amny.com/news/local/tracker/blog/2006/08/lovely_and_legal.html |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:38:40 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:34:20 2006. And the rule in question is Section 1050.9(c) |
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Re: amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning) |
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Posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:39:41 2006, in response to amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning), posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:37:15 2006. Wow. Thanks a ton, Brian. I'm going to email the author ASAP! |
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Re: amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:44:02 2006, in response to Re: amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning), posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:39:41 2006. You're welcome! Awesome! |
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Re: amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning) |
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Posted by R PansePCC on Mon Aug 14 13:44:44 2006, in response to amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning), posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:37:15 2006. I will remember this for the next time. I know there will be a next time. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Allan on Mon Aug 14 13:45:34 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:38:40 2006. As a suggestion, you should print out the particular section (1050.9) just before you go out to start taking pictures (or the night before).The reason being that most browsers will put the URL and the date on what is being printed. By having a current date will avoid someone telling you that it is out of date and the rules have been changed. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:49:02 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Allan on Mon Aug 14 13:45:34 2006. I agree. But since I take photos daily, I just made a nice booklet out of it and carry it with me all the time. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Transit Guy on Mon Aug 14 13:59:35 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:49:02 2006. Thanks for the help everyone. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Aug 14 14:02:32 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. I'm glad you contacted the NYCLU. I did when I was told I couldn't take pictures of the LIRR and the result was this |
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Re: amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 14 14:04:30 2006, in response to Re: amNY wants to know about it (Was: Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning), posted by R PansePCC on Mon Aug 14 13:44:44 2006. Everyone who takes rail photos in New York should bookmark that page. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Aug 14 14:05:42 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. You might also want to contact Bobby Cuza of NY1 News. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 14 14:08:08 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 13:31:31 2006. So far, he's just being a prick. If he demanded you delete them, you do NOT comply. Prepare for arrest if necessary. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Aug 14 14:27:36 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:27:03 2006. LOL@ That statement "If people know thier rights"Sorry Terrapin but i wasnt laughing at you my friend.... I used to say the same thing when i was a teenager and the cops stopped and serached and harassed me beacuse i "looked" suspicous.. I knew my rights, im sure they did too still didnt stop them from harassing me.. Put yourself in my shoes back then... You are a young man and a BIG cop make that 2 BIG cops(not to mention hearing and seeing some of the "results" the horror stories about whay happened to some young black men in those preceints) are busting your balls and then writing your name and address down as if you are wrong but you are not heck i should have told somebody about what was happening but alas no name or badge numbers or a darn car number... "Cant help you kid sorry"... |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 14:39:12 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Railman718 on Mon Aug 14 14:27:36 2006. How would they get your name and address if you didn't give it to them because you know that you have a right not to? |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by JohnL on Mon Aug 14 14:51:18 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 11:44:44 2006. Scratch it out. Seriously, it’s illegal to have it on the Id. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Aug 14 14:53:40 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 14:39:12 2006. Read what i said Terrapin Young and Black Two BIG mean Cops..."Intimidation" is the word(which can really "hinder" commen sense)... A mistake on my part... One which will never happen again... |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 14:59:12 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Railman718 on Mon Aug 14 14:53:40 2006. Intimidation...A mistake on my part...One which will never happen again...The same thing happened to Jarid and me. We were intimidated into giving more info than we needed to. And just like you, I will not let it happen again, now that I know the law. So we completely agree. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 15:19:14 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 11:44:44 2006. Depends on what sort of ID it is on.You cannot cross it off, as a defaced ID is not valid as an ID. You would need to go to the issuer, and to ask for one without the SSN on it. All new or renewed driver licenses in ND have an alternative number on them instead of the SSN. People make too much of the SSN. It should be your Social Security Inusrance number, and your tax identification number. Having it SHOULD NOT prove or give your identity. That is does so, as if people thought "Hey here is a great ID number" oops. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Aug 14 15:35:12 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. I've only had one encounter with a cop, who said that people were complaining that I was taking pictures "of" (actually through) the cab. In my case, the two cops I encountered asked for ID (didn't demand it), and asked if I was a railfan, and didn't do much else. They didn't ask for my film or camera.Actually, when they first came over, I thought they were grousing over my flash; my camera resets my flash settings whenever I close it, and on this one occasion, I forgot to turn the flash back off. (In this case, I was getting an interior shot of a train that had just discharged in a terminal. I haven't posted that pic yet.) In your case, the cop certainly went too far. Unless he had a reasonable suspicion that you were doing something illegal, he shouldn't have taken your camera. Mentioning the FBI was also over the top, and he had no right to order you to put your camera back in your pocket. I hope the NYCLU gets back to you soon. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 15:48:54 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 13:00:40 2006.   If you believe the following to be incorrect, please explain. I believe that, essentially, this is what I said. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 14 15:52:21 2006, in response to Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 14 15:48:54 2006. No, you said "You must identify yourself to the police opfficer upon request" and what I posted says that at least in one state you might need to only if you are being detained under articulable suspicion. That is beyond what Jarid or you experienced. |
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Re: Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning |
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Posted by The I Man on Mon Aug 14 16:03:20 2006, in response to Removed from a train by the NYPD this morning, posted by Canton Viaduct on Mon Aug 14 10:19:26 2006. Sorry it happened to you. This is another waste of NYPD resources. The first rule of terrorism is that recon is done covertly, not out in the open. Why NYPD fails to understand this is beyond me. |
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