$6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a "bargain" (1590718) | |
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(1590718) | |
$6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a "bargain" |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Nov 23 22:58:38 2021 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-second-ave-subway-tunnel-gov-hochul-20211124-xdwpezc4mjg5hjy23jxjzl5ezi-story.htmlGov. Hochul sees light at end of NYC’s long-abandoned Second Ave. subway tunnel during tour with MTA chief |
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(1590729) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 08:13:16 2021, in response to $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a "bargain", posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Nov 23 22:58:38 2021. "A bargain" ? For the ultimate usage yes, but not in terms of construction costs. With 15 blocks already done, it is still ridiculous. |
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(1590734) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Nov 24 09:42:04 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 08:13:16 2021. are they going to use the existing tunnels? |
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(1590735) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Nov 24 09:45:12 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Nov 24 09:42:04 2021. Yes. |
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(1590736) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Nov 24 10:20:32 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 08:13:16 2021. IAWTP |
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(1590737) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Nov 24 10:33:21 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 08:13:16 2021. Maybe because they refuse to find ways to cut costs without sacrificing "quality." |
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(1590738) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 10:36:33 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Nov 24 10:33:21 2021. Will the 2 new staions be $750 million Taj Mahals, or built as simple IRT local stations ? |
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(1590739) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 10:43:52 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 10:36:33 2021. The existing SAS stations are not especially ostentatious and are extremely plain compared to “simple IRT local stations.” |
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(1590740) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Nov 24 10:44:22 2021, in response to $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a "bargain", posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Nov 23 22:58:38 2021. Another tunnel built by the city under Canal St. in Chinatown for the Second Ave. subway was also abandoned — but changes to the line’s plan mean it’s no longer needed.I really hope that's not going to be the case when they seriously start. Expanding Grand St from 2 to 4 tracks on the same level would be much more beneficial than splitting it between 2 levels. Then again, I probably won't be around when that happens. |
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(1590741) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Nov 24 10:51:14 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 10:43:52 2021. Really? I think the SAS stations are definitely larger and more elaborate than the typical IRT local station. |
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(1590742) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 10:54:59 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 10:43:52 2021. Full length 600' mezzanines are quite ostentatious. |
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(1590743) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 10:57:29 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by 3-9 on Wed Nov 24 10:44:22 2021. Is it still supposed to go down Water Sreet ?A few buildings along that street were built with basements that could accomodate entranes to it. What used to be called "88 Pine" was one of them. My mother worked there in the 1970's. |
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(1590744) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Nov 24 11:11:53 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 10:43:52 2021. The tile work is not ostentatious. The size of the mezzanines, two of them at considerable depth, is some kind of display of grandeur, even if ostentation might be the wrong word. |
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(1590747) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Nov 24 11:41:57 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Nov 24 09:45:12 2021. In fact, the section from E. 99th to E. 105th has already been tied into the section that is now open. |
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(1590754) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Nov 24 13:41:49 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 08:13:16 2021. Why get ourselves all worked up? Most of us will be dead by the time this extension to 125th/Lex is opened! I thought that $6.9 billion was for the whole project- DUH!,, |
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(1590756) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 24 13:59:31 2021, in response to $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a "bargain", posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Nov 23 22:58:38 2021. LOL, the press gets it consistently wrong. They say the 1967 money was to be used for a pair of double-deck tunnels- no, just one. Which was built, but has yet to be fully utilized. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 24 14:00:36 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by AlM on Wed Nov 24 11:11:53 2021. I agree. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Nov 24 14:03:08 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 24 13:59:31 2021. 54 years in the making. Wow |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:11:10 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 10:54:59 2021. I disagree, it’s not that big a deal. |
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(1590763) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:12:37 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Elkeeper on Wed Nov 24 13:41:49 2021. You kept on saying that about phase 1. I expect to live another 40 years. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 14:16:27 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:11:10 2021. $750 million per station is a big deal.So is spending $6.9 Billion for a subway that is half built. Then taking 8 more years to get it done. |
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(1590765) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:18:18 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 14:16:27 2021. Most of that isn’t down to the station size and design but is a combination of high cost of construction in general and also graft and other factors that make construction in New York unnecessarily expensive. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Wed Nov 24 14:28:46 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:12:37 2021. Bingo. |
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(1590768) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Nov 24 14:42:30 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Nov 24 11:41:57 2021. how so? |
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(1590769) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Nov 24 14:45:19 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 24 14:00:36 2021. I do hope they make more than 2 bathrooms per station ends,this is just stupid, |
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(1590770) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Nov 24 14:51:51 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:11:10 2021. They added considerably to the expense. They're not only 600' long, they're also very high-ceilinged. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Nov 24 14:56:59 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:12:37 2021. A recent Society of Actuaries' mortality table gives an employed white collar male 37 year old (just guessing here) a 50% chance of living to 87. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Nov 24 15:08:19 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by AlM on Wed Nov 24 14:51:51 2021. They're pretty normal for modern underground stations all around the country. Only a guess, but it could be that modern safety and fire codes contribute to the need for larger stations by requiring quicker egress and for a way to evacuate smoke while still evacuating passengers. |
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(1590776) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Nov 24 15:10:07 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Easy on Wed Nov 24 15:08:19 2021. Oops. The full length mezzanines being discussed are different than most new stations around the country. There could still be a safety reason though. |
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(1590785) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Nov 24 16:42:03 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Nov 24 14:42:30 2021. The tracks north of the 96th street station are currently used for layups. |
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(1590786) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 16:43:40 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Nov 24 16:42:03 2021. How far do they go ? |
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(1590787) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Nov 24 16:47:58 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 10:36:33 2021. The existing tunnels above 96th Street are much closer to the street surface because the topography changes. They won't need the long escalator/elevator runs to access the mezzanines.I believe the 116 street station, which was not in the original SAS plans, will be built as an island platform in a section of tunnel that was originally designed to hold a layup track. |
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(1590788) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 17:06:36 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Nov 24 16:47:58 2021. They are also closer to the surface as they were built using cut and cover and not deep boring. The 70s plan called for mostly cut and cover. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Nov 24 18:26:28 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 17:06:36 2021. I think the tracks are remarkably level from 63rd street to 116th street - roughly at sea level, give or take a bit. At 63rd, 72nd, and 86th that's very deep and boring makes the most sense. At 96th and 106th that's pretty shallow, and so cut and cover makes the most sense. |
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(1590798) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Nov 24 19:36:53 2021, in response to $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a "bargain", posted by GojiMet86 on Tue Nov 23 22:58:38 2021. Should we double the $7 billion estimate, and if so, can we still call it a bargain? Even $7 billion doesn't sound like such a bargain to me. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 24 21:12:26 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 24 16:43:40 2021. to 105th St. |
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(1590808) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Nov 24 21:30:14 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 24 21:12:26 2021. If you watch any Holiday Special clips when the IND old timers ran to 96th St., you'll notice they go full tilt into the tunnel after discharging passengers. There's plenty of runout distance. |
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(1590809) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Nov 24 21:34:40 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Nov 24 16:47:58 2021. Any chance they might still use part of the middle trackway as a layup track? |
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(1590814) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 24 23:12:45 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by qveensboro_plaza on Wed Nov 24 16:47:58 2021. That middle trackway at 116th St has an inspection pit, so it could have been used for inspections as well as layups. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Nov 25 02:01:30 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by VictorM on Wed Nov 24 21:12:26 2021. Not true.That section of tunnel has Not been used as of yet. Only as far as 99th st,or the end of new construction. The tunnel IS CONNECTED TO THE NEW ROUTE for sure, but it's usage is limited to lay ups..the tunnel up to 105th st is trackless..only because they want room to work as far as the expansion is concerned. |
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(1590822) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 25 11:27:30 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 24 14:18:18 2021. THEFT...absolute THEFT. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 25 11:50:38 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 25 11:27:30 2021. IAWTP |
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(1590826) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Nov 25 12:00:11 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 25 11:50:38 2021. Construction in the US is very expensive due to regulation. NYC is the most expensive, as would be expected. |
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(1590827) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Nov 25 12:02:46 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 25 11:50:38 2021. Construction in the US is very expensive due to regulation. NYC is the most expensive, as would be expected. |
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(1590838) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 25 14:24:29 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Easy on Thu Nov 25 12:00:11 2021. It's graft. If they couldn't get the money, they would not charge it. London is 60% of NYC's cost and they have just as much garbage below the streets as we do from the 18th and 19th century version of those cities.All the MTA has to do is dig the ENTIRE extension by mining. You take out the soil you need to remove with an elevator at the two stations. Work on both tunnel segments simultaneously from the beginning. Only remove the dirt you actually need to and see if you can co-locate more equipment at the buildings you have to condemn. The Army Corps of Engineers can build that tunnel for 1/2 price. Frankly, the MTA's in-house construction teams do a good enough job that it may be wise to get them more involved in Capital Construction. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Nov 25 17:11:51 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 25 14:24:29 2021. I thought the prime source of corruption WAS the MTA in-house construction teams, with members working 5,000 hours per year and the like. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 25 17:42:33 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 25 14:24:29 2021. London also hits upon Roman ruins when they dig, and that has to be dealt with. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Thu Nov 25 18:38:33 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 25 14:24:29 2021. The soil composition of London is primarily clay, relatively easy to tunnel through (Roman ruins notwithstanding).Manhattan, on the other hand, is primarily schist, very hard granite stone (although the East Side above 96th street is mostly former wetlands). The segment from 116 Street to 125 Street will be the most challenging part to deal with. Still, I find it hard to believe that the total cost would be quite so high. |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Brightonr68 on Thu Nov 25 20:01:54 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by qveensboro_plaza on Thu Nov 25 18:38:33 2021. If the people that run this city had half of capitalist brain , they would have tried to see if any companies were interested in mining the schist . Yes , not a good solution for a project you are looking to complete fast but for how many facades has this project been stalled for . Even if the mta partially subsidized the operation . |
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Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Nov 25 20:09:26 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Brightonr68 on Thu Nov 25 20:01:54 2021. Try googling the price of schist and do a calculation of the volume they could sell. Then compare against the cost of the project. |
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