Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map

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Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by GojiMet86 on Fri Jan 8 19:28:42 2021 https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2021/01/ind-second-system-track-map/
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by italianstallion* on Sat Jan 9 11:30:04 2021, in response to Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by GojiMet86 on Fri Jan 8 19:28:42 2021.* Some proposals are missing - like the N extension to LaGuardia.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Sat Jan 9 16:20:54 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jan 9 11:30:04 2021.* Although it doesn’t show an N extension to LaGuardia per se, it does show an eastbound extension of the Astoria Line east along Ditmars Blvd that passes right by LaGuardia.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sat Jan 9 17:34:00 2021, in response to Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by GojiMet86 on Fri Jan 8 19:28:42 2021.* This is a fantasy map and not an official IND or Bot proposal.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Sat Jan 9 19:52:02 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 9 17:34:00 2021.* That was my reaction when I looked this morning. It just didn't seem real. Some of it was, but a lot wasn't.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jan 10 02:43:39 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Sat Jan 9 19:52:02 2021.* It looked to me like it was a mish mash of the original IND Second System proposals and some of the MTA’s proposals from the 1970s mixed together.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Billy P.* on Sun Jan 10 12:59:58 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 10 02:43:39 2021.* It seems like that was the intention. I was trying to visualize what the work programs for some of those lines would look like. 2 trippers on most of them would end up paying 14 or 15 hours!
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by GojiMet86* on Sun Jan 10 18:16:16 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Billy P. on Sun Jan 10 12:59:58 2021.* Yeah, that was his intention: The purpose of this map is the show the history of official subway expansion plans which can be broadly broken down into four phases: the 1929 Second System plan, the 1939 Second System plan, post-World War II plans, and the 1968 MTA Plan for Action. The map acts as a “choose your own adventure” where by each variant of every plan is drawn. The reader can pick and choose which lines they think could have been built and what the system might have looked like today if they had. To show the evolution of these plans over time this map contains different layers of proposals. The current system is drawn as is but proposed lines are drawn with a black outline. 1929 plans are drawn with the same color pallet as the present system, 1939 plans are drawn in a darker color pallet, and post-War to Plan of Action lines are drawn in a lighter color pallet. Also shown are heavy, grey dashed lines which indicate additional alternatives to the main proposals which were not drawn out in detail for the sake of overall clarity. Some lines were only proposed once but others, such as the 2nd Ave Subway (drawn as a full 6-track subway) or Utica Ave Subway (drawn as a full 4-track subway), have had multiple proposals over the years which have changed in scope. These lines are drawn as they would look at their largest scopes. Alternative arrangements are drawn branching off the main lines. This is to show different alignments and not to suggest different branches of the same proposal. Some lines show two totally different services at the same time to indicate how service would have differed under alternative plans. Tracks and station details for much of the map are speculative. Most extensions were only proposed as grand concepts. Some were not serious proposals but added to build political support for the plan. Few ever got to the engineering stage when actual designs were drawn up and station locations chosen. Any station labeled with an asterisk (*) is based not on actual blueprints but where the author presumed planners would have placed one. Likewise, interlockings and track layouts, for the most part, are designed in keeping with how typical IND interlockings and tracks were laid out at the time. Train routes are also based on speculation. The original IND route naming convention had express trains labeled with single letters (A, E, F) while local routes were labeled with double letters (AA, CC, GG). This convention was simplified to the one we have today in the early 1980s and all proposed extensions are labeled with the modern convention. Exact route labeling, if not evident by historical precedent or determined by track layout, is completely speculative and should be viewed as purely for illustrative purposes.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Bill from Maspeth* on Sun Jan 10 18:42:52 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Billy P. on Sun Jan 10 12:59:58 2021.* Mama Mia. You're not kidding.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 11 00:23:46 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Billy P. on Sun Jan 10 12:59:58 2021.* One of the problems with trying to combine the older second system proposals with later construction that was actually accomplished is that it would be very difficult for many of them to coexist. Connecting the Houston St Line with S 4 St and the Utica/Stuyvesant subway would have been problematic since the 2 middle tks of the Houston St line that would have gone into Williamsburg were diverted through Chrystie St to the Manny B. Adding the connection to the Willy B into the mix would create capacity problems on the 6 Av and Houston lcl tks. At some point you would have to decide which of the proposals you would want to keep and which ones yo would have to forget because you really wouldn’t be able to have both. In some cases the unification of 1940 eliminated the need for certain parts of the IND second system since those were designed specifically to put the BMT out of business which was no longer necessary since the city now owned the property.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 10:12:06 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:23:46 2021.* And if anything, adding the connection to the Willy B fulfilled the idea of going into Williamsburg that the S4th St connection was supposed to be by using the BMT.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by ntrainride* on Mon Jan 11 10:15:41 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by GojiMet86 on Sun Jan 10 18:16:16 2021.* never understood why they stopped using double letters for locals. what possible reason could anyone come up with that wasn't just oh, that's old stuff and we like new stuff. it was the easiest way to differentiate the two types of service.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 10:18:18 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by GojiMet86 on Sun Jan 10 18:16:16 2021.* I've often wondered that if the Utica extension of the IRT was built as proposed in the 1968 plan that the Eastern Parkway line would be overwhelmed. Could they have handled additional crowds that would take the Utica subway but wouldn't have taken a Utica bus? By the time those trains reached Atlantic they'd be too crowded to take on LIRR passengers. They already were when I lived in Park Slope and it would only be worse.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 11 10:21:13 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:23:46 2021.* There's also the fact that later proposals only existed because of the failure to build earlier proposals. That is, the Christie Street connection was only built because the 6th Avenue Express tracks didn't get a southern outlet by way of S 4th. If S4 had been built, Christie never would have, except as part of the SAS unconnected to 6th Avenue. S 4 would have also eliminated much of the motivation for the Christie-Williamsburg connection as it would have run the same route.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by italianstallion* on Mon Jan 11 11:55:53 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by ntrainride on Mon Jan 11 10:15:41 2021.* Because at one point it was realized that too many expresses ran local at some point on their runs so the distinction became meaningless. The B is express in Brooklyn and local in Manhattan. Ditto the E in Queens and Manhattan. The LL and the GG had no express counterparts, so why bother with double letters. I could go on.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 12:44:25 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 11 11:55:53 2021.* Here's my guess. At some point somebody brilliant in the MTA (yea, an oxymoron) counted the number of lines and said "Oh, only 20, we can give each its own letter." And really, how many routes had more than one variation that needed a double letter? Answer: 1. The A and AA. All of the other lines had unique letters by that point. Even historically, how many actually ran simultaneously? E and EE, Q, QB, QJ, and QT, T and TT, RR and RJ and maybe there was a C and CC? Or was that during the water main reroutes?
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by GojiMet86* on Mon Jan 11 13:20:04 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 12:44:25 2021.* In hindsight, they subway lines may been better off with all-numbers than with letters. Double numbers are more logical and more comprehensive than double letters. With numbers, there really is no limit to how many one can have, whereas with letters, there is a sense of an impending limit, even if you can do double letters... ...Or maybe make the IRT division all-letters, given the relatively limited amount of branches and main lines, and make the B division all-numbers.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 11 13:29:42 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 12:44:25 2021.* There was a simultaneous C and CC from 1933 until the late 40s.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Jan 11 13:38:51 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 11 11:55:53 2021.* Having double letters didn't even conserve letters to any meaningful extent. Distinct services would still need distinct letters. If they opened the lower SAS, they'd still need a new letter for that. The only letter conservation that could (currently) occur is renaming the C to the AA and the W to the NN. So that allows the C and W to be reassigned. Then railfan purists would complain that the C is only 8th Avenue-Concourse and everything else violates the carefully thought out IND letter scheme. The M could be renamed the FF too. It would make as much sense as (actually more sense) the old 1967-76 EE. So we open up 2-3 new letters even though there's no real shortage of letters.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Elkeeper* on Mon Jan 11 14:46:50 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 13:38:51 2021.* If I remember correctly, the MTA got a $21 million federal grant to change over to a single letter system. Back then, you could have purchased a 10 car subway train with that amount.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Mon Jan 11 15:26:03 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by GojiMet86 on Mon Jan 11 13:20:04 2021.* Numbers for the B division, letters for the A division...that does make some sense.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 18:21:40 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 11 14:46:50 2021.* I'd like to buy a vowel...
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Mon Jan 11 18:22:45 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 18:21:40 2021.* Save your money.:)
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 11 19:11:45 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 12:44:25 2021.* Actually quite a few ran simultaneously. The A and AA ran together for years as did the C and CC. A repurposed EE ran with the E immediately post Chrystie and The Q and QT and QB ran together on the Brighton Line. QT was Brighton Lcl via tunnel which operated when the Brighton Exp operated and the QB was the Brighton Lcl via bridge when the Express did not operate. T and TT as West End Exp and Lcl also operated at the same time. The original concept was that a train that ran express anywhere on its route was designated an express and given a single letter while a pre local, which had absolutely no express running would be designated as a local and be given a double letter. The logic started to crumble with Chrystie St when the TA assigned letters from 2 merged lines to a single line like QJ and RJ which used the double letters whether the train operated local or express on their routes and a repurposed QB which ran express on Bway even though it was signed as a “local via Bridge.”
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 11 19:17:11 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 11 15:26:03 2021.* Actually, the lines that eventually became the IND were supposed to continue the BMT’s route numbering system since after Hylan left office ad mayor, the city offered the BMT the opportunity to operate the new lines. The BMT declined because it would have been stuck with the nickel fare which it wanted increased so the city was forced to come up with a new system for designating its routes so the letter system was developed. The IRT never had route numbers till the R-12s were ordered and the B of T decided to assign numbers to the IRT routes even though they conflicted with the BMT numbers.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 11 19:24:01 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 13:38:51 2021.* The only line that could have been properly named the FF would have been the V. Once the former Myrtle/Chambers service got routed to Ctl it would be more appropriate to call it a MM since its home terminal is Met in the BMT Eastern and it does run full time between Met and Bway.Myrt. There actually were plans to have an MM service operating between Met and 57/6 and all the R-1/9s assigned to the Eastern and a few R-27/30s had MM signs installed. The service never really operated except for 4 AM layups that were actually returning KKs and displayed KK signs.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jan 11 19:28:36 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 10:18:18 2021.* It might not have made that much difference since instead of transferring from Utica Av buses to the subway, the bus passengers would simply board along the outer end of the Utica subway. Most likely, the service pattern operated would have been 7 Av service ( 2 or 3) to the S/E of the Utica subway and Lex (4 or 5) to N/Lts.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 20:52:14 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:24:01 2021.* I have the MM sign but I've posted it enough times already.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by FYBklyn1959* on Mon Jan 11 21:25:52 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by ntrainride on Mon Jan 11 10:15:41 2021.* If they had retained the double letters, I wonder how that would affected the GOH R-32s and R-38s, which had those "Cyclops" route signs that could only display one character (maybe a bigger sign?) Example
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Mon Jan 11 21:43:07 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:17:11 2021.* One other reason I heard about the letters v/s numbers designations was that somewhere, a study was done that reached the conclusion that people remembered letters better than numbers.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 23:49:29 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:28:36 2021.* I'd say that a real subway down Utica would have led to more development in the corridor and more crowded trains. And even without that development you would still see more people crowding on than you get on the buses. Taking a bus to the subway is a big disincentive to a lot of people, myself included, but if you gotta go to work, you gotta go. And it would be the other way around. The express dead ends at Utica and would have been extended, the local continues to New Lots, and the express leads to Lexington. Sure there are exceptions but that is how it has been run. If it weren't for Rogers Ave Junction, which would have been rebuilt if Utica were built, they'd never cross the trains.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Mon Jan 11 23:52:46 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 23:49:29 2021.* I should add that I haven't been out past Franklin Avenue on the New Lots line since I was 6 and the Low-Vs were still running! I've been down to Flatbush many times as an adult, and lately I'd been getting off at Franklin to eat and drink at the restaurants along there.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Tue Jan 12 02:00:55 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 11 21:43:07 2021.* That may be true since some other transit systems that only used colors to describe their lines are now renaming them with letters.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Tue Jan 12 02:06:19 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jan 11 21:25:52 2021.* They would have simply designed the signs to display double characters.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Tue Jan 12 08:10:47 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 12 02:06:19 2021.* I wonder why they wouldn't have just done that in the first place. After years of double letters they convert the fleet so that it can only display one. Another touch of brilliance that locked them into single letters. I guess it worked out though as they never went back and the few remaining cars are on hiatus. I don't think they'll return unless they decide to do a "goodbye" run after people get their jabs.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Tue Jan 12 09:58:39 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:24:01 2021.* Way to miss the point.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Tue Jan 12 18:23:52 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:24:01 2021.* The R-32s had green double Moe signs as well.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Tue Jan 12 18:34:27 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 12 02:00:55 2021.* Denver's rail transit system has had both letter and color codes for each line all along, but it has become standard practice to refer to all rail lines by their letter designation.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Tue Jan 12 18:36:18 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:11:45 2021.* IINM the EE was used briefly in 1937, but it never ran at the same time as the E.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Tue Jan 12 19:14:43 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Mon Jan 11 23:49:29 2021.* I wonder what a Utica Ave subway (especially alongside a Nostrand Ave IRT extension) would have done to Brighton Line ridership.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Tue Jan 12 19:16:25 2021, in response to Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by GojiMet86 on Fri Jan 8 19:28:42 2021.* Just checking - none of the mentioned plans that had the current E terminus at WTC being anything but a dead-end, as it is shown on the map here?
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Elkeeper* on Tue Jan 12 22:40:04 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 12 19:14:43 2021.* I don't think it would have affected Brighton ridership, but we will probably never know. South of Kings Hwy the ground gets lower and the water table gets higher. Sort of like beyond the legendary 76th St station under Pitkin Ave. The Utica line was proposed before the IRT was having the Eastern Pkwy line extended. At least two other times, in the early 1930's and early 1950's, it was proposed as part of the IND, but the line, according to engineers had to be elevated, south of Kings Hwy. The locals demanded a full subway to Ave U, the City said no, so the plans were shelved. An IRT Nostrand extension would also have ran into the same elevation and high water table problems as the Utica Ave proposals.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by zac* on Tue Jan 12 23:11:10 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jan 12 18:34:27 2021.* It drives me crazy when people describe the Manhattan lines by their colors, usually out-of-towners.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Express Rider* on Wed Jan 13 00:25:11 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by zac on Tue Jan 12 23:11:10 2021.* Yes, I know what you mean. They've probably traveled on other tranist systems, that currenly name their lines by color; Boston for example. And Chicago's lines are now referred to by color as well, correct?
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Express Rider* on Wed Jan 13 00:30:27 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 12 22:40:04 2021.* Thank you for the info. about water table height. Does the IRT under Nostrand Ave. between Newkirk and the terminal still have water problems? When I rode the line to Flatbush during the late 1960s, the train took it very slowly between Newkirk and the terminal. IIRC there was water along the roadbed, the tracks were above it, and the T/O took it very slowly into the terminal at Flatbush Ave.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by Express Rider* on Wed Jan 13 00:37:17 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jan 11 21:25:52 2021.* I always thought the route signs, as in the photo above, were the worst re-design that they came up with. The letters were too small to see effectively until the train was very close, and the green was ill-lit and too dark. And there was no route or terminal info. either, which was always another indicator of which train was arriving.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Wed Jan 13 02:11:42 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jan 12 18:36:18 2021.* Not exactly the same time, but documentation seems to indicate that the E was the Qns exp service during the day and at night it ran lcl and was signed EE.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Wed Jan 13 02:13:58 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Express Rider on Wed Jan 13 00:30:27 2021.* It seems the MTA found some sort of concrete that could set under running water and the entire line is now modified type 2 all concrete roadbed with AFAIK, no problems.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Wed Jan 13 02:15:22 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 12 22:40:04 2021.* Actually, the IRT’s Utica Av subway was planned long before the IND as evidenced by the bellmouths on the IRT immediately S/O the Utica Av station.
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Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map
Posted by randyo* on Wed Jan 13 02:17:56 2021, in response to Re: Vanshnookenraggen: IND Second System Track Map, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 12 19:16:25 2021.* Some of the IND second system plans were lower priority than the ones most of us are familiar with and the connection from WTC is one of the lower ones. It’s no accident that the stub tracks at WTC line up almost perfectly with the tks of the BMT at that point.
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