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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Aug 30 14:30:08 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by VictorM on Wed Aug 28 18:56:07 2013. I'm talking about 2 tracks under 42nd St, one north to Queens, and one south, from Queens. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 30 15:58:12 2013, in response to Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Aug 30 14:19:50 2013. That could have been accomplished by merely having an underpass at the rear end of the respective platforms. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Sep 2 08:32:04 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Aug 25 14:07:18 2013. I know this is old, but this is on topic. Anyone have any idea when the Norfolk exits closed before they were temporarily reopened in 1989?Thanks. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sat Sep 5 15:50:00 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:55:26 2013. Depending upon the year, the city didn't always call the shots. It was a complicated political situation involving state and city entities. It was really a mess, The Wikipedia article on the Board of Transportation lays it out well. The legislature empowered the Rapid Transit Commission in the 1870s to develop and oversee transit line. Then, it shifted authority to the Public Service Commission in the 00s. In the 1921 it created New York State Transit Commission to oversee transit. And, in 1924, it authorized the city to create the Board of Transportation for new transit lines while the state Transit Commission would continue to oversee the existing privately operated lines. As with the MTA board today, who served on the boards and commissions, and who appointed them, reflected who had been given the decision-making power. At the point in the 20s when the IRT might have wanted at least the ability to build west, construction power was in the city's hands, at least with respect to the authority to build the Eighth Avenue line to block the IRT. There are Times articles about all this that I read about a decade ago that are very illuminating. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 5 16:13:39 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 20:04:09 2013. The IND was built the way it was on purpose. They wanted local passengers to stay on board their trains right to their final destination, which was presumed to be midtown Manhattan. That's why there are only a handful of local-only stations south of 59th St., and why there are no express stops at all down CPW. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 5 16:15:22 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sat Sep 5 15:50:00 2020. i also read a few proposals but, the 8th Ave subway was never intentionally built to block the IRT from expanding westwards under 41st St. That extension was never even mentioned in the 1913 Dual Contracts. There wasn't even a free transfer between the 9th Ave el and the IRT subway at 66th St-B'way. The lower level of the IND's 42St/8Ave station was built to transfer downtown "E" train riders from Queens to the uptown "A", "AA" and "CC" trains. It probably looked good on paper, like the center platform of 59th St-Columbus Circle's center island platform. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Sep 5 18:22:30 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 5 16:15:22 2020. Isn't that the purpose of 53/7? Or is the advantage of transferring at 42/8 that you will have your choice of local or express, rather than potentially requiring another transfer at Columbus Circle? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Sep 6 16:39:52 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by K. Trout on Sat Sep 5 18:22:30 2020. By using the "E" train's SB lower level, riders could transfer upstairs to the uptown tandem express & local platform. this option, I believe, was built to siphon off traffic from the competing 6th Ave el services. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Sep 6 20:12:35 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by K. Trout on Sat Sep 5 18:22:30 2020. But 6th Ave. trains didn't exist until 1940, so 53/7 couldn't have been used for that purpose until then. On the other hand, E trains didn't use the lower level at 42/8 until the 1970s. But maybe it had been intended that they would. And maybe blocking the IRT is something no one wanted to put down on paper, but was an idea in someone's mind anyway. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Sep 6 20:29:30 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Sep 6 20:12:35 2020. I think lower level was built to be a bleeder for merging the E with the A without backing up as far as the 53rd Street line. |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 10:37:00 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Aug 27 08:44:10 2013. Look here. The Turn Table    
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Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 11:03:55 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 07:18:19 2013. Yet there is still a very slim chance The BMT Broadway/7 Th Ave could go to CPW.If it were to be extended as originally planned, it could be brought under CPW. Double stacked and ramped up to the lay-up tracks just north of 86th street. There, a merge to either local or express tracks on both uptown and downtown levels. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 11:09:46 2020, in response to If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:41:31 2013. Is the Broadway, North of Columbus Circle built to Dual Contractstandards, and able to fit "B" Division cars with platform shaving? |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 12:13:28 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 11:09:46 2020. I don't think so. Only the Lex north of 42nd is. |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 12:14:47 2020, in response to Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 10:37:00 2020. Is that "The SHortline" the same as today's Hudson Transit Lines/Shortline/CUSA? |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 12:25:23 2020, in response to Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 10:37:00 2020. The photos of the B&O buses are not the Hotel Dixie. Buses stopped at many NYC hotels before WW II. The B&O buses were operated by Fifth Avenue Coach. |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 12:26:57 2020, in response to Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 12:14:47 2020. Correct. The legal name of Shortline is Hudson Bus Lines, which goes back to the 1920's |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 12:26:57 2020, in response to Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 12:14:47 2020. Correct. The legal name of Shortline is Hudson Bus Lines, which goes back to the 1920's |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 12:26:58 2020, in response to Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 12:14:47 2020. Correct. The legal name of Shortline is Hudson Bus Lines, which goes back to the 1920's |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 7 12:26:58 2020, in response to If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:41:31 2013. Whatcha talkin' bout now, Willis? A duplicate subway under the IRT? |
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Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 12:31:39 2020, in response to Re:Photo Bus Terminal Hotel Dixie Essex- Before the IND, posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 12:26:57 2020. Looking at a current Shortline schedule, they have Hudson Transit Lines and Hudson Transit Corp. Is the difference on which side of Binghamton they are running ?I know Chenango Valley Bus Lines is the route via Whitney Pt to Ithaca. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 7 13:58:41 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 11:09:46 2020. No, it's not. Just take a ride on the #1 train, look out the side windows, and see for yourself how close the tunnel walls are. Not only were the IRT tunnels built with their subway cars the same dimensions as the Manhattan Elevated Railway, but the tunnels were narrower to discourage any takeovers by large railroads. Ditto for the Hudson & Manhattan RR. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 7 15:00:58 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 7 13:58:41 2020. If you're lucky enough to get a RFW, notice how close the third rail is to the I-beams between the local and express tracks on any Contract One portion. Then compare it to a Dual Contracts or IND tunnel. The third rail is quite a bit further away from the I-beams. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:15:03 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:53:34 2013. As I have alluded to in several posts on this subject, if the cesspool of incompetence that passes for TA (or MTA) planning, which it obviously doesn’t, tracks would have been laid on those outside trackways so that lcl trains could access the 63 St and eventually the 2 Av Line. Wit such a routing enabled, 57/7 could still be used occasionally as a place top shrt turn trains coming from Bkln. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:23:59 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 7 13:58:41 2020. Many people post that the IRT was built deliberately narrow to discourage takeover by large railroads but I doubt that was the case. At the time, IRT sized cars were state of the art for railroad coaches as evidenced by the fact that the LIRR MP41s were dimensionally identical to the IRT Gibbs cars. Also the H & M which was only a few years newer than the IRT was built to similar specs even though it had joint operation on the Newark Line with the PRR. I doubt that McAdoo would have objected if the PRR could have accessed Hudson terminal or 33 St. By the time of the Dual Contracts, RRs were building larger rolling stock and it was then that the PSC specified that the new subways were to be built to accommodate the larger RR cars that were becoming the norm. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 15:28:28 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:23:59 2020. If they really wanted to discourage real railroads, the IRT would have been built with a strange trolley car gauge like in Toronto or Philly. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:30:46 2020, in response to If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:41:31 2013. From what I have seen of various plans for rapid transit expansion in NY, The BMT spur N/O 57/7 was supposed to continue north and operate up CPW to some point in upper Manhattan. I seem to recall somewhere that the subway was actually supposed to be built under Central Park itself immediately east of CPW itself, but friends of the park objected. Eventually when the city built the IND line up CPW it had to be built in such a way that no part of the subway infrastructure including entrances would encroach on park property. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Sep 7 16:13:23 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:23:59 2020. IRT sized cars were state of the art for railroad coaches as evidenced by the fact that the LIRR MP41s were dimensionally identical to the IRT Gibbs carsIsn't that a bit of circular reasoning? The MP41's were designed at about the same time as the IRT. One counter argument is that the Brooklyn Bridge was specifically designed to handle Pullman cars (after several design changes). One idea was that it would connect with the Hudson RR terminal at Chambers St. The Bridge cable cars were 10 feet wide, as were Sands St and Park Row. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Sep 7 16:13:58 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:30:46 2020. BMT WAS ALSO SUPPOSED TO HAVE A MADISON AVE BRANCH GOING INTO THE BRONX.AT 69ST.& MADISON THERE WAS AN EXCAVATION DONE THAT WAS LATER BACKFILLED. |
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Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by ro_jo on Mon Sep 7 16:40:17 2020, in response to Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 11:03:55 2020. Are you talking about the track configuration between 72 and 81?I have always wondered if it was kind of a provision for a merge "from the east" I remember one strange time when I got to ride a train who took those switches. Uptown A left 59th on the express tracks, rode by 72nd on the express, then switched over to the local track and rolled through all remaining local stations without opening the doors. Truly strange.. Probably 3 years ago in the evening. I couldn't say if it was a weeknight or weekend. -Robj |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 17:53:53 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:30:46 2020. When the Jerome and Pelham Bay Lines were built under the Dual Contracts, the were designed for BMT service. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 18:36:21 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 17:53:53 2020. When was the Jerome line built, and was it for 10' wide cars or 9' wide BMT wooden el cars ? |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 18:40:19 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 18:36:21 2020. The Jerome Line was opened 1917-18. It was designed for BMT 10' wide cars. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 8 04:32:59 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:20:06 2013. David Rogoff wrote a multi-part article in the Bulletin, years back, about unbuilt/abandoned parts of the BMT-BRT. I have back issues, separately and bound in a filing cabinet in my storage unit. I will try and find them sometime this week, and see if he wrote anything about this space. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Sep 8 05:16:15 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 15:28:28 2020. Tracks gauge can be changed more easily than the width of tunnels can. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Tue Sep 8 06:43:23 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 8 04:32:59 2020. If it is at all possible, could you take pictures of or scan the article?Thanks. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 8 06:51:04 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Sep 8 05:16:15 2020. Which they never did on Philly and Toronto. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 8 07:26:41 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Union Tpke on Tue Sep 8 06:43:23 2020. Unfortunately I do not have a scanner or anything else to reproduce images of any kind on-line. That's a bummer to have to hear I know.If you ask around the members of the NY transit enthusiast community you hopefully might eventually find someone who also has old Bulletins and could put specific articles up on-line. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Sep 8 08:38:46 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 8 04:32:59 2020. The article that you are referring to was “BRT-BMT Eastern Division Abandoned Trackage”. It appeared in the April, June and August 1968 issues of the New York Division Bulletin. A further article dealing specifically with the “BRT Williamsburg Bridge Terminal” appears in the June 1958 issue of the Bulletin. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Tue Sep 8 10:09:17 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 8 07:26:41 2020. Even some low-quality phone pictures would suffice if you are able to. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 8 11:46:01 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:03:32 2013. Perhaps, for that never-opened elevated terminal platform? The one before the NYC Dept of Bridges decided to build it underground, along with the trolley terminal. Just a guess! |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 8 11:48:28 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 7 15:28:28 2020. A lot of rolling stock was brought in by railroad with standard gaugetrack width. |
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Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 8 12:09:13 2020, in response to Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 7 11:03:55 2020. It was never planned, only a proposal. It would have terminated at 125th St & Morningside Ave with the CPW route. Another proposal was to run straight up and under Central Park and continue up 7th Ave (Adam C Powell Jr Blvd). That route would have put it right between the 6th & 9th Ave els on 8th Ave and the IRT Lenox subway. That was not going to happen! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 8 13:00:16 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 8 11:46:01 2020. 2 questions for you:Why does the Broad Street-bound platform begin several feet before the track curves into it ? Is there anything of interest behind that wall ? |
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Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Sep 8 15:32:54 2020, in response to Re: Hope yet for BMT on CPW Essex- Before the IND, posted by ro_jo on Mon Sep 7 16:40:17 2020. Are you talking about the track configuration between 72 and 81?I have always wondered if it was kind of a provision for a merge "from the east" Yes , I had the location wrong . Thanks for the correction, it's been a very long time since I've been there. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 8 16:43:21 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 8 13:00:16 2020. I don't know the answer to either one. The Broad St bound side platform was built along with the center island portion of Essex St in 1908. When the line was extended to Chambers St in 1913, the side platform was opened. The station was originally called Delancey St. Remember, a lot of the unused structures and areas were built when the City was considering the old Triborough routes. For example, the next station, Bowery, has a sealed up door and partial passageway to a never-built Triborough 3rd Ave subway. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 9 02:18:48 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Sep 8 08:38:46 2020. Thank you for this info! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 9 02:35:15 2020, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 8 16:43:21 2020. I remember Rogoff writing about the Bowery structure, have you seen or been inside this area?Thanks. |
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by gbs on Wed Sep 9 03:34:47 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 7 15:30:46 2020. I'm pretty sure that the F-line tracks, after they leave 7 Av and turn south along Prospect Park West, are actually under Prospect Park, and not under the street, and the entire 15 St station is also under the edge of the park. 
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Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by murray1575 on Wed Sep 9 07:10:26 2020, in response to Re: If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th, posted by northshore on Mon Sep 7 17:53:53 2020. The Flushing and Astoria elevated lines were also designed to accommodate 10' wide BMT cars although they both operated BMT elevated and IRT elevated and subway cars which were all narrower until 1949 when the Astoria line was rebuilt to allow BMT subway trains to run through what were the Second Avenue Elevated platforms on the IRT side of Queensboro Plaza and go to Astoria. The Flushing line cannot ever run wider cars into Manhattan since the limiting factor is the Steinway Tunnels which were originally designed for trolley cars and are too narrow. |
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