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| When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal (1548073) | |
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Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 20 23:16:20 2020, in response to When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Wed May 20 19:41:09 2020. I wonder why they did it that way. When the Xovers at Brighton Bch were moved N/O the station making it effectively a stub terminal, passengers on Brighton Exps were advised to change at Sheepshead Bay for through service to CI in case the exp terminated on the N/B tk at BBC |
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| (1548113) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 07:04:08 2020, in response to When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Wed May 20 19:41:09 2020. Is this the correct reading ? 
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1548114) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 07:33:42 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 07:04:08 2020. Cool.It would be. |
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| (1548119) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu May 21 08:24:51 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 07:33:42 2020. How could they have operated Bowery as a terminal and not fowl up the tracks leading to and from Canal Street terminal ? |
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| (1548120) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 09:06:02 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Joe V on Thu May 21 08:24:51 2020. They terminated on the center Canal St. bound track then relayed on the Brooklyn-bound center track in Canal. |
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| (1548121) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Thu May 21 09:43:43 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Joe V on Thu May 21 08:24:51 2020. Before the line was resignalled by Federal Signal Co. in 1916, one of the middle tracks stub-ended in the station at Bowery. |
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| (1548123) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 10:14:50 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Dj Hammers on Thu May 21 09:43:43 2020. This was 1931 so presumably no problem. Trains from J4 in Bowery switched to J3 in Canal, which stub-ended there, right until the end of Broadway Local service. In my memory J3 did not exist in Canal or was never used. |
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| (1548124) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu May 21 10:18:12 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Dj Hammers on Thu May 21 09:43:43 2020. Really. Wow. Which track? Do you have a track map you could share?Thanks. |
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| (1548125) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 10:19:55 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 10:14:50 2020. *Correction: J4 not J3 didn't exist in Canal. Of course now J4 is the active Jamaica-bound track for all regular trains. |
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| (1548129) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 21 10:44:26 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 10:14:50 2020. I always assumed it existed when Canal St was a terminal for the Canarsie Line 24/7 and just fell into disuse and was removed after, but the description of terminating at Bowery and running light to Canal to reverse negates that. There had to have been track there at one time, ties were in the roadbed. |
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| (1548130) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 10:45:48 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 21 10:44:26 2020. There was and now there is again! |
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| (1548147) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 21 14:46:43 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 10:19:55 2020. From the look of the special work in the area and the presence of running rail and 3rd rail on J4 tk in the station area pre Chrystie, it looks like J4 did exist at one time and even went through. Although documentation on it is a bit spotty, from the little I’ve seen, it seems that for a very brief period, all 4 tks went through Canal. What the history of the connections to the H tracks seems to be lost so I don’t know if there was ever an at grade junction between the H tks and J1 and J3 or whether J1 and J3 tks were just severed when the H tks were routed over the Manny B. |
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| (1548152) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 15:04:06 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by randyo on Thu May 21 14:46:43 2020. The tracks J3 and J4 that ended at the south end of Canal Street were blocked off by a platform and what looked like a solid wall. The J1 and J2 tracks entered the junction at grade, as did the H1 and H2 tracks and went through a series of series of level crossover to reach Chambers Street. Pretty much the same arrangement as now.Or, for that matter, the area between Coney Island Station and Coney Island Creek. I don't think the J3 and J4 tracks ever went through, nor were they supposed to. The earliest plans called for the H1 and H2 tracks to enter Chambers along with the J1 and J2 tracks. |
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| (1548153) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 21 15:12:44 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 21 10:44:26 2020. I recall when I used to go railfanning in the 1960s and for a short time after I started working for the TA in 1966 all the rail was in the station area and the remains of what was a diamond Xover was N/O the station. |
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| (1548157) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 21 15:42:11 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 15:04:06 2020. One of the early ERA NY Div bulletins showed a track map with all 4 tks going through during the construction of the Centre St Line whether it was actually done or not. When the Essex St master tower was installed in the early 1960s, the model board showed all 4 tks going through prior to the decommissioning of tks J1 and J3 so it was eventually intended for all 4 tks to go through. |
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| (1548161) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 16:00:06 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by randyo on Thu May 21 15:42:11 2020. That was the 1909 plan but it was quickly revised. |
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| (1548164) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 16:00:39 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by randyo on Thu May 21 15:42:11 2020. That was the 1909 plan but it was quickly revised. |
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| (1548186) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu May 21 19:42:38 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 07:04:08 2020. I can sign my signbox that way, too. |
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| (1548206) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu May 21 21:53:08 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by randyo on Wed May 20 23:16:20 2020. For a number of years when both the #4 and #5 Lexington Avenue Express trains terminated at Atlantic Avenue during the mid-day non-rush hour periods (and possibly other times) at the Nevins Street station riders were advised to transfer across-the-platform to arriving Brooklyn bound #2 and #3 trains. This sounds like something similar.Mike |
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| (1548221) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri May 22 07:04:53 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by randyo on Thu May 21 14:46:43 2020. I think I saw a very, very early drawing of the Canal Street station showing Track J4 going through. I'll see if I can find it again tonight. |
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| (1548244) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Zac on Fri May 22 11:14:45 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Michael549 on Thu May 21 21:53:08 2020. You do that even now when you are going to grand army or Bergen or Brooklyn museum. Everybody knows to do that. |
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| (1548252) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 11:58:08 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by G1Ravage on Fri May 22 07:04:53 2020. Joe Brennan's Abandoned Stations site has an interesting section on Canal St with a PSC map showing all 4 tracks going north to Canal St along with the Bridge H tracks curving off to the right. Link |
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| (1548273) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Fri May 22 14:41:17 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 11:58:08 2020. Did the now-abandoned east platform at Canal/Centre ever have an exit to the street, or was one ever planned? |
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| (1548282) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 15:26:16 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by qveensboro_plaza on Fri May 22 14:41:17 2020. I seem to vaguely recall there was an entrance on the east side of Centre St that went to the east platform. This 1940s tax photo seems to show a street entrance on the southeast corner of Canal and Centre. Zoom and look closely above the "198" sign: |
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| (1548294) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Fri May 22 16:34:48 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 15:26:16 2020. Thank you for that photo -- it does look like some kind of street entrance going down. That particular station must have the worst street access in the entire system. |
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| (1548307) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri May 22 17:33:00 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Michael549 on Thu May 21 21:53:08 2020. I suppose that one OTHER reason for the "terminal" at Bowery station is a kind of timing issue.Once the passengers have departed the incoming train at Bowery that train (now empty) could make its way along the "down-town express track" and park there along with any other trains ahead of it until the pocket track (or tracks) ar Canal Street are clear and available for an incoming train. However "much time" any train has to spend being "parked along the express track" waiting to use the pocket track (or tracks) at Canal Street to return to Bowery and beyond - no passengers are stuck waiting inside that train. Just a thought. Mike |
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| (1548329) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 20:50:03 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu May 21 10:44:26 2020. I had always thought that the dead ended track at Canal St was for LIRR trains, which ran on Centre St until Labor day, 1915. I guess we all forgot about the extra traffic from the LIRR in this thread! |
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| (1548335) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 21:27:52 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 20:50:03 2020. I think you mean 1917. And in 1913 LIRR-BRT joint service moved from Delaney to Chambers Street. Source: Seyfried. |
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| (1548339) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 21:41:02 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 21:27:52 2020. Brooklyn Eagle, 01/15/1916, page 12- far right column. You are probably thinking of the fully opened Myrtle Ave Express service, after the center track over Broadway was fully completed, a year later. That would have been after the pocket turnback track, over Keap St, for the Broadway Ferry shuttle had been removed and changed for express service through Marcy Ave. |
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| (1548351) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 06:51:11 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 21:27:52 2020. I read in one of the books that somewhere in Chambers Street station, there was a LIRR checked baggage room. |
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| (1548353) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 07:03:35 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 06:51:11 2020. Checked baggage to go to Rockaway Park? |
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| (1548354) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 07:05:02 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 21:41:02 2020. We were talking about the LIIR/BRT joint service? |
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| (1548356) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 23 07:37:18 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 21:27:52 2020. This reminds me, is there any documented photo of an LIRR MP41 (I assume) anywhere on the BRT line? I consider this the holy grail of foamer photos. |
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| (1548360) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat May 23 08:14:20 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 06:51:11 2020. Wild! I never heard about that before. Sounds interesting to investigate further - LIRR's responsibility for a passenger amenity on BRT property.The original mezzanine area sounds like there would have been more than enough room for this. I don't remember, did Chambers St. station originall have very large mezzanine area, or were ther two different extensive mezzanine areas? I've been told that part of Chambers St.'s mezzanine(s) have been closed off. |
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| (1548371) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 11:02:50 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 07:03:35 2020. Oh yes. That was a resort until WWII.If you look at LIRR schedules through the early 60's, there was an "NB" on top of most columns, meaning no checked baggage. But there was usually a token train on each branch that handled it, especially if they got an RPO car, which on the LIRR was almost always Baggage-Express-RPO combos, the RPO section being shorter than most of railroads, like 15'. |
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| (1548372) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 11:04:59 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 23 07:37:18 2020. I don't think there are any anywhere. They also MU'd with some old wooden 1898 former steam RR cars, modified as trailers, which had a high roof. I don't know if they cleared BRT tunnels though. |
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| (1548373) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat May 23 11:43:21 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 11:04:59 2020. THERE ARE NO KNOWN PHOTOS OF ANY LIRR EQUIPMENT ON THE JAMAICA EL. |
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| (1548386) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 13:50:19 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 07:05:02 2020. No, the first Myrtle Ave express service. |
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| (1548392) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:27:23 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Fri May 22 21:27:52 2020. The article that I read was written before the end of the summer of that year. It might have continued until 1917. |
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| (1548394) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 23 16:04:48 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Express Rider on Sat May 23 08:14:20 2020. The original mezzanine went all the way through but the City claimed part of it for the basement of the Municipal Building. |
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| (1548395) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 23 16:06:23 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat May 23 11:43:21 2020. How about unknown photos? |
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| (1548408) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 23 17:26:02 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Express Rider on Sat May 23 08:14:20 2020. during an NYTM tour our docent described the baggage room and pointed to where it had been. |
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| (1548410) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 17:55:13 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat May 23 17:26:02 2020. Any visible remnant of it ? |
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| (1548417) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sat May 23 19:04:22 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by G1Ravage on Fri May 22 07:04:53 2020. I found it. The earliest diagram I saw was undated, but it showed all four tracks passing through the south end of the station.The next oldest diagram I found was dated 1924, and it showed the two express tracks ending at the bumping blocks, as well as the platforms being extended northward. |
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| (1548422) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:04:35 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 13:50:19 2020. Elkeeper: I had always thought that the dead ended track at Canal St was for LIRR trains, which ran on Centre St until Labor day, 1915. I guess we all forgot about the extra traffic from the LIRR in this thread!To which I responded "I think you mean 1917." I know it's hard to remember where we are in a thread. |
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| (1548423) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:07:06 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 14:27:23 2020. It did continue to 1917. You were reading a summer 1915 article that said that the service ended Labor Day of that year? |
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| (1548424) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:07:56 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 16:06:23 2020. They're of 96th .... no, I won't say it. |
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| (1548430) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat May 23 22:21:25 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by SLRT on Sat May 23 22:07:56 2020. You mean 96th -20! |
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| (1548433) | |
Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat May 23 22:29:00 2020, in response to Re: When BOWERY Was Considered a Terminal, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 07:04:08 2020. Is that a Mack on top? |
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