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| What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? (1548300) | |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 16:56:29 2020, in response to What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 16:55:58 2020. I think on the Manhattan Bridge approaches. |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri May 22 17:06:17 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Union Tpke on Fri May 22 16:56:29 2020. I'm told 4% is the max grade either in the Steinway tunnel or the BMT from 11th St. Cut to Lex. Ave. |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 17:24:18 2020, in response to What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 16:55:58 2020. The steepest grade is on the Williamsburg Bridge approach leaving Essex St: 5.5%, but it's only for about 390 feet, after which it becomes approximately 4%. The second steepest is on the Manhattan Bridge approaches: 5.4%, but it's much longer, approximately 900 feet. |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri May 22 17:28:40 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 17:24:18 2020. What about coming out of the Flushing line tunnel at Hunterspoint Ave ? |
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| (1548309) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 17:43:42 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Joe V on Fri May 22 17:28:40 2020. I know the Steinway runnel approaching Vernon-Jackson is 4.4%, so I would think the grade leaving Hunterspoint Av is about the same, but I don't have any data on that one. There are plenty of other places where the grades are at least 4%. |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Fri May 22 18:11:23 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 17:24:18 2020. second steepest is on the Manhattan Bridge approachesThe claim in this old thread is that H2 track just north of Myrtle Avenue is 5.5%. |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 19:43:06 2020, in response to What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 16:55:58 2020. If the connection from Chambers Street BMT to the Brooklyn Bridge would have been built, would that have had the steepest grade? |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 19:49:27 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 17:43:42 2020. Like the BMT 60th St tunnel up to Queensboro Plaza? |
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| (1548330) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 20:54:17 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 19:49:27 2020. Yes, and here's a list I found a few years back:tracks J1 and J2 on the willy b from station 73+45 to station 77+35 (390 ft) is at 5.5% that's the steepest track H2 on the manny b from station 287+35 to station 278+07 (928 ft) is at 5.4% grade. steinway tubes from station 88+94 to station 101+99 (1305 ft) is at 4.5% grade 60th street tubes from station 102+12 to station 109=97 (787 ft) is at 4.37% grade NYC TRANSIT TRACK LOCATIONS WITH GRADES LARGER THAN 4.0%: • Manhattan Bridge (Brooklyn and Manhattan approaches), Manhattan Bridge and Brighton/6th Avenue Lines • Williamsburg Bridge: Manhattan approach, Jamaica Line • Steinway Tunnel, Flushing Line • 5th Avenue to Grand Central, Flushing Line • S/O 36th St. to the 5th Ave. Cut Portal, West End Line (Open cut portion of West End Line) • 38th St. Yard Viaduct Ramps West End Line (Open cut portion of West End Line) • 60th St. Tunnel, Astoria and 11th St. Cut Lines (connection to Queens Blvd. Lines) • South of Queensboro Plaza Upper Level to Astoria Line • South of Broad St. Jamaica /Nassau Cut Line (to the Montague Street BMT Tunnel to Downtown Brooklyn) • East N.Y. Yard Lead Jamaica Line • North of Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction Jamaica Line • South of Chambers St. to North of Broadway-Nassau/Fulton St., 8th Avenue Line • Grant Ave. to 80-Hudson St. Liberty Ave. Line • North of South Ferry Loop, 7th Avenue Line (Westside IRT 1 train) |
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| (1548331) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri May 22 21:16:42 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 20:54:17 2020. I often wondered what the grades are on the Flushing Line's flyover express track between 103d St & Willets Point? |
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| (1548332) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 21:18:03 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 19:43:06 2020. Yes! I read somewhere that grade would, for a short distance, have to have been as much as 10%. That may have been one reason it was never built. |
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| (1548334) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 21:25:07 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 21:18:03 2020. Plus the sharp curve, in addition to the grade. I always wondered why Chambers St was nor built with upper and lower platforms. An upper platform would have made the Brooklyn Bridge connection a lot easier. |
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| (1548336) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 21:29:19 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri May 22 21:16:42 2020. Looking at and scaling off aerial views it looks as if the express track has to climb about 18 feet in 600 feet, which is about 3%. The same appears to be the case on the downgrade approaching Willets Pt. |
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| (1548337) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 21:37:01 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 17:43:42 2020. Correction: the Steinway tunnel approaching Vernon-Jackson is 4.5%. (The 60th St tunnel is 4.4%.) |
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| (1548338) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri May 22 21:40:35 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 21:29:19 2020. Thanks! |
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| (1548350) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Sat May 23 05:50:20 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Fri May 22 21:29:19 2020. It's a nice ride westbound as the downgrade gives the train added momentum for the uphill grade into Junction Blvd. as there are no timers requiring the motorman to slow down as there are in the other direction approaching Mets-Willets Point. |
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| (1548361) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 23 08:26:37 2020, in response to What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 16:55:58 2020. Could you post that video? |
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| (1548362) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat May 23 08:55:23 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by murray1575 on Sat May 23 05:50:20 2020. I agree. On the westbound express run, the train seems to fly by 103d St.Sta , probably the fastest spot on the entire line. |
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| (1548365) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sat May 23 09:54:42 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Elkeeper on Fri May 22 21:25:07 2020. What about the North and South Channel swing bridges on the Rockaway line? |
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| (1548378) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat May 23 12:45:25 2020, in response to What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 16:55:58 2020. This is a different type of equipment but still the same wheel/rail/electric motor setup.The Commonwealth Avenue hill just east of Cleveland Circle on the B line is quite steep, it's a slog to even walk on. Its outdoors, so the LRVs are required to climb it in all weather. Sorry I don't know the grade %, but it's easily over 6%. |
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| (1548384) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 13:33:08 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Steamdriven on Sat May 23 12:45:25 2020. Looking at mytopo.com, the steepest I see is a 20 foot climb in 360 feet, or about 5.5%, on wither side of Washington Street. |
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| (1548400) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 16:35:48 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Steamdriven on Sat May 23 12:45:25 2020. The Commonwealth Avenue hill just east of Cleveland Circle on the B line is quite steep, it's a slog to even walk on. Its outdoors, so the LRVs are required to climb it in all weather. Sorry I don't know the grade %, but it's easily over 6%.There used to be a product called DeLorme's Topo USA. It allows you to create a profile for any path in the USA. The grade along the path is also displayed. It uses USGS data for the US. Google and its derivative products use satellite radar data to determine height. There are a lot of inaccuracies with the satellite data. I bought the product to settle arguments among cyclists as to which hill was the toughest climb. That didn't quite work out. I also lived at Commonwealth Ave and Warren St during my first year in graduate school. It's at the base of the hill, where the car moves from the side to the center of Commonwealth (besides Packards Corner). I'm very familiar with that area. The profile along Commonwealth from Warren to Lake St (the end of the BC car line) shows the peak is about a block and one half west of Washington St. The initial climb from Warren to Summit Ave registers between 6% and and 10%. There's a lesser climb between Washington and Mt. Hood Rd that maxes out at 9% for a very short stretch. |
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| (1548402) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat May 23 16:54:48 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sat May 23 09:54:42 2020. They're about 3%. |
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| (1548404) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 17:03:34 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by VictorM on Sat May 23 16:54:48 2020. LIRR MP54 trains could never had handled that, especially with about 25% of the consist being T54 trailers. |
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| (1548407) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat May 23 17:24:04 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 23 17:03:34 2020. That's why the original LIRR swing bridges were at a much lower elevation. |
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| (1548412) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 17:56:16 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 16:35:48 2020. The initial climb from Warren to Summit Ave registers between 6% and and 10%. There's a lesser climb between Washington and Mt. Hood Rd that maxes out at 9% for a very short stretch.Hmm. I'm just not seeing anything that steep on mytopo.com. It's got very strange 3 meter contour intervals in that area. I lived on Mapleton Street in Brighton (a few blocks off Commonwealth) for 2 years. |
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| (1548415) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 18:40:04 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by AlM on Sat May 23 17:56:16 2020. I'm just not seeing anything that steep on mytopo.com.I did say that DeLorme's Topo USA didn't settle arguments. It's got very strange 3 meter contour intervals in that area. I'm not a subscriber to mytopo.com and refuse to go for the trial offer. I did look at the USGS topo for the Newton quadrangle 1:24000. It can be viewed for free. It's got 10 ft contours. There are a lot of them crossing Commonwealth, just east of Warren. I lived on Mapleton Street in Brighton The MTA screwed me. The fare used to be 20 cents to go on the Commonwealth Ave car to Mass Sta and then take the Mass Ave bus to MIT. The fare was 15 cents for a surface line without transfer and 20 cents with a transfer. They changed the fare structure about two months into the semester. No transfers and 20 cents for a subway and 10 cents for a surface line. That was a 50% fare increase. I could take the Commonwealth car and change at Park St to go to Kendall Sq. The walk in winter was murder. I was an RA at the I-Lab, way on the other side of Mass Ave. I moved back to Cambridge, near Harvard Sq, the next year. That brought the fare down to a dime. The ambiance at Harvard Sq was also better than Brighton's. |
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| (1548418) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat May 23 19:20:48 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 18:40:04 2020. mytopo.com is free if you just want a view of a small piece of a map at a time.By the time I got there (1972) the fare was 25 cents for the subway plus 20 cents for a bus or a trolley. |
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| (1548419) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by northshore on Sat May 23 20:24:17 2020, in response to What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 22 16:55:58 2020. The Steinway Tunnels are so steep, the IRT always required special "Steinway Cars" in order to make the grade |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:06:50 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by northshore on Sat May 23 20:24:17 2020. As I had mentioned before in another post, although the iRT originally felt that the grades in the tube required special gearing, it was later found out that as long as there were no trailers in the consists, standard Lo-Vs worked just fine and on a couple of occasions some standard geared Lo-Vs were actually transferred to and operated on the IRT Queens lines. |
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| (1548444) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun May 24 05:18:30 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:06:50 2020. Have you ever come across any specific articles in contemporary (for that early era) magazines, journals such as Street Railway News, etc. that described in any kind of detail the gearing differences between Standard and Steinway Lo-V's?Thanks. |
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Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 09:25:12 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by randyo on Sun May 24 02:06:50 2020. If they ever MU'd standard Lo-V's with Steinway ones, what would happen ? |
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| (1548463) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sun May 24 09:52:08 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 16:35:48 2020. So, with the same steel wheel/steel rail limiting condition, shouldn’t a subway train be able to handle the same grade? With many more axles it should (in theory) have a substantial advantage, since if one axle is on a wet or contaminated spot there are dozens of others with traction. |
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| (1548464) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sun May 24 09:54:10 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat May 23 16:35:48 2020. So, with the same steel wheel/steel rail limiting condition, shouldn’t a subway train be able to handle the same grade? With many more axles it should (in theory) have a substantial advantage, since if one axle is on a wet or contaminated spot there are dozens of others with traction. |
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| (1548473) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun May 24 11:27:15 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Steamdriven on Sun May 24 09:52:08 2020. The problem is the traction motors might burn out trying to handle the load, especially with a full load of passengers. That was a problem in the Queens bound 60th St tunnel, until they increased the motor horsepower from 100 to 115HP. |
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| (1548496) | |
Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 15:49:28 2020, in response to Re: What is the Steepest Grade in the Subway System?, posted by Joe V on Sun May 24 09:25:12 2020. I have heard that they did a few times on the 3 Av el, but I don’t know if there is any documentation or photos to that effect. |
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