|
|
| The reason NYC stopped building subways (1537379) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
|
Page 1 of 4 |
|
|
| (1537379) | |
The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020 In the first decades of the 20th century, New York City experienced an unprecedented infrastructure boom. Iconic bridges, opulent railway terminals, and much of what was then the world’s largest underground and rapid transit network were constructed in just 20 years. Indeed, that subway system grew from a single line in 1904 to a network hundreds of miles long by the 1920s. It spread rapidly into undeveloped land across upper Manhattan and the outer boroughs, bringing a wave of apartment houses alongside.Then it stopped. Since December 16, 1940, New York has not opened another new subway line, aside from a handful of small extensions and connections. Unlike most other great cities, New York’s rapid transit system remains frozen in time: Commuters on their iPhones are standing in stations scarcely changed from nearly 80 years ago. Indeed, in some ways, things have moved backward. The network is actually considerably smaller than it was during the Second World War, and today’s six million daily riders are facing constant delays, infrastructure failures, and alarmingly crowded cars and platforms. Why did New York abruptly stop building subways after the 1940s? And how did a construction standstill that started nearly 80 years ago lead to the present moment of transit crisis? Doesn't seem to rebut my presumptions in the other threads all that much |
|
|
| (1537387) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:31:40 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. I also think that part of the cessation of new subway construction in NYC is the drying up of Federal funds that were used to build many of the IND lines during the 1930s. Of course WWII put an end to much of it too, but after the war, there was no longer any desire on the part of the Feds to contribute any more to NYC’s transit infrastructure. |
|
|
| (1537389) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 5 16:43:15 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. whilemostly accurate as far as it goes, the article fails to deal with the issues of choosing designs that are extra cost at ZERO advantage to theriders--starting withexcessively deep mining rather than shallow trench bothe tunnels and stations. As the Alon Levy article cited by an earlier poster make slear, the US just spendsmore for less. The defense department style of immensely overpricedjunkhas spread to the civillian sector. This is not economically sustainable. For historical comparsison, Robert Reich has pointed out that in the post-war boom, the US paid off the entirety of the accumulated Depression/WWII deficitdebt. That is not the current case. It would take severaldecades of both a DOD diet, and an Eisenhower era scale of income taxation. I do not expect to live long enough to see this accomplished muchasIdesire it, nor the completion of a full (even Manhattan) SecondAvenue Subway.Like unto several other major trends of post WWII political history, I see drasticmistakes compounded by entrenched injustices. Time and again, Congress has allowed a return to the predatory and fraudulent economic practices each resulting in major looting of the US Treasury and re-impoverishment of the economically disadvantaged. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1537397) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 19:00:44 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:31:40 2020. I don't know how much of the transit system was built by federal money, although I am interested to know as I like comparing historical facts.But, in Canada, unless they recently changed the formula, the federal gov't doesn't give as much to the provinces like we do here. And they're booming in Toronto. |
|
|
| (1537412) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 5 20:41:32 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:31:40 2020. The death knell was when the post-WWII bond money was hijacked from the 2nd Ave subway project, to fix wartime neglect. Plus, the IND Culver and Fulton subway-to-elevated-to-Rockaway extensions. |
|
|
| (1537417) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 5 23:14:10 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 19:00:44 2020. FDR moneywent to subway construction as part of the 'pump priming' efforts at rejuvenating the US economy. Chicago,s State Street Subway also received Fed funding. While I don't have the figures, they are likely out there to be found. The Chicago project also featured pix of the BMT Bluebird as a possible trainset. |
|
|
| (1537419) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 5 23:28:35 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:31:40 2020. The 6th Ave Subway was a PWA project. |
|
|
| (1537423) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by gbs on Thu Feb 6 00:33:59 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. What, no mention of Robert Moses, New York's pre-eminent builder? If he had wanted subways, you can bet they would have been built, but he wanted roads and bridges, and he didn't just ignore subway construction, he actually prevented subway construction. |
|
|
| (1537425) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 6 01:24:09 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:31:40 2020. That's because it should have been the private sector doing it. But since the city took over the ball of wax, private funding was automatically excluded, so expansion died and contraction set in. |
|
|
| (1537426) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Feb 6 02:13:19 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. Robert Moses. |
|
|
| (1537427) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 02:17:28 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by gbs on Thu Feb 6 00:33:59 2020. yes another person whose parents should not have conceived. |
|
|
| (1537428) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Feb 6 02:57:45 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. Once Unification happened, the City had its hands full trying to run the lines it had, and form them into something resembling a unified system. The B of T and the NYCTA felt they got more bang for the buck building connections between lines, like the various free transfers that opened in 1948, and track connections like the IND-Culver one, the 11th Street cut, Fulton St. el remnant and LIRR Rockaway line to the Fulton St. subway, and through-routing the Dyre Ave. line with the IRT mainlines, than they would building all-new lines. |
|
|
| (1537432) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 04:14:58 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Feb 6 02:57:45 2020. shafting the East Side for over half a century was a serious lapse. |
|
|
| (1537433) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 6 05:26:30 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Feb 6 01:24:09 2020. That's because it should have been the private sector doing it. But since the city took over the ball of wax, private funding was automatically excluded...All the subways were built with NYC funds. The private companies only leased them. |
|
|
| (1537439) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by murray1575 on Thu Feb 6 07:24:10 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Feb 6 02:57:45 2020. Not only did the city have the issues you mentioned, but much of the equipment on the IRT and BMT was worn out due to the heavy use of the system during WWII due to gas rationing and other shortages and lack of maintenance. Between 1948 and 1964 almost all of the IRT cars were replaced (except for a few Steinway cars on the Third Ave. line) which required infrastructure upgrades to support them. Hundreds of BMT Standard and Triplex cars were also replaced along with all of the non-standard cars such as the Multis. |
|
|
| (1537440) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Feb 6 08:58:52 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. On top of all that, look at the Second Avenue Subway. It is driven very deeply, compared to the earlier Dual Contracts lines, for example. Cut-and-cover is no longer practical for subway construction in today's Manhattan, which is fully developed.Then there's the added difficulty of tunneling through Manhattan schist, which is one reason ESA is taking forever to complete. Even in the boroughs, it's not so easy to accommoplish new tunneling. The Archer Ave. extension (both branches) adds up to a little over two miles, but that took more than a decade to build. The original IRT in Manhattan, by contrast, nine miles, was finished in just four years using 19th-century technology. |
|
|
| (1537442) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Mr RT on Thu Feb 6 09:42:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Feb 6 08:58:52 2020. Yes, driven deep due to the NIMBY problem.Outside of NYC the NIMBYs do it with the Rails to Trails efforts. |
|
|
| (1537445) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:49:51 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 02:17:28 2020. Robert Moses was not all bad. |
|
|
| (1537446) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Feb 6 11:49:54 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. Meanwhile China builds thousands of miles of HSR in no time at all. |
|
|
| (1537447) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:52:56 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. One thing that I believe is incorrect is that the author calls the NYCTA “an independent state authority”.As far as I know the NYCTA was a creation of the city, not the state. Did the city need state approval to create the NYCTA? |
|
|
| (1537449) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 11:57:11 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:52:56 2020. NYCTA is a state agency. It is in the Public Authorities Law. |
|
|
| (1537450) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 11:57:56 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Feb 6 11:49:54 2020. If America became a repressive dictatorship, then it could build things in no time at all too! |
|
|
| (1537451) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Feb 6 12:04:15 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 11:57:56 2020. Macy's and the Empire State Building was built without eminent domain, and no one told them the building was too tall for the neighborhood.If the current laws were in place in 1920, you'd be living in a smaller town than Des Moines, where they can't figure out where to stand to elect a president. |
|
|
| (1537454) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by W.B. on Thu Feb 6 12:58:25 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:49:51 2020. I read that Moses had some sections of new LIRR track (namely in the East New York section of Brooklyn and within the Rockaways) built in the 1940's, done so underground or at least covered up so they wouldn't be seen and people had to go through corridors to get to the stations. Those sections are distinctive because certain portions of some stations had pre-lettered tiles that had been a fixture of the IND. |
|
|
| (1537455) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by W.B. on Thu Feb 6 13:00:54 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by murray1575 on Thu Feb 6 07:24:10 2020. And among the upgrades of the IRT was eliminating their original 75 lb. third rail and replacing them with 150 lb. NMC third rail which originally was made for BMT and IND trackage. (To this day, some sections of IRT West Side tracks south of Times Square have the IRT's own sections of 150 lb. third rail which differ from that developed by what was the New York Municipal Railway Corporation subsidiary of what before 1923 was known as the BRT.) |
|
|
| (1537456) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 13:12:58 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Feb 6 12:04:15 2020. What is the point of your post? Plenty of ridiculously tall buildings are built in New York City to this day. What does that have to do with HSR or subways? |
|
|
| (1537459) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 6 13:42:53 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:52:56 2020. It may technically be a City agency- but the City is subordinate to the State.My 1963 subway map explicitly states that the NYCTA was created by an act of the State Legislature. |
|
|
| (1537461) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 14:00:58 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:49:51 2020. yes like the light spot on the dark halfofthe yin yang symbol |
|
|
| (1537462) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 14:56:07 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 6 13:42:53 2020. It is not a "city agency." |
|
|
| (1537465) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 6 15:10:34 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 13:12:58 2020. The point is that hardly anything can be built these days because there are always NIMBY laws/complaints or agency bureaucracy.How many bridges would NYC have today if today's laws existed when back then? "Sorry, you can't build the Brooklyn Bridge because its going to affect the marine life of the East River. Also, we have to do an EPA study on the horse poop the traffic will generate" "Sorry, cant't build the Manhattan Bridge, because it casts a shadow on the riverbed, and the fish won't like that" As for something relevant for today, they can't extend the Astoria line into an industrial zone for an extension to Laguardia. Because of 2 blocks of NIMBY. We've all seen the Flushing line when it was first built. Imagine it being blocked because it was "out of character" for the neighborhoods it went though. |
|
|
| (1537467) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 15:49:51 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by N6 Limited on Thu Feb 6 15:10:34 2020. while each of the points you cite has some validity, when I propose an elevated transit line down your own street, let's see what you say. |
|
|
| (1537469) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Feb 6 16:41:48 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 13:12:58 2020. "Plenty of ridiculously tall buildings are built in New York City to this day."Only if you can game the formula's put into place. You're not allowed to build something 55x bigger than the plot next door (that you probably got with eminant domain). |
|
|
| (1537470) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Feb 6 16:43:31 2020, in response to The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Feb 5 15:54:35 2020. I don't think any of the responses have responded to this fact. You all talk about expansion but you ignore:Indeed, in some ways, things have moved backward. The network is actually considerably smaller than it was during the Second World War In response to some of the others, I thought it was interesting they go on about Robert Moses in Buffalo too. But those highways didn't look anything different than what I can find in other older cities of the period. |
|
|
| (1537472) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 16:53:33 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 5 23:14:10 2020. There is a video our called about the building of the State St Subway which shows scenes of the Bluebird being tested on the Sea Beach Line and also entering what may be the lower level of City Hall. I have also seen pictures of postcards issued showing an artist’s rendering a BMT style Bluebird in the State St Subway. The Chicago articulated units were very much influenced by the Bluebird but built to Chicago clearances and having other modifications as well unique to the Chicago system. |
|
|
| (1537474) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:22:30 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 14:56:07 2020. So why are it’s employees who are not MABSTOA under the NYC Retirement System rather than the NYS Retirement System? |
|
|
| (1537475) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:24:15 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by W.B. on Thu Feb 6 12:58:25 2020. What is your point? |
|
|
| (1537477) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:27:54 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 14:00:58 2020. He did plenty good and much bad. In fact he was better for transportation and parks, than he was for housing, where he really failed.The really sad thing about Moses is that when he started, he had the best of intentions to appoint people based on merit rather than politics. It’s when he became power hungry, he turned into what many regard as evil. But few can deny his genius at his ability to get things done, whether you agree with what he did or not. |
|
|
| (1537478) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:31:08 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 6 15:49:51 2020. And today’s els are not yesterday’s els. Look at the AirTrain, although it is over a highway, not a city street. It doesn’t look bad at all. |
|
|
| (1537479) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Feb 6 17:49:26 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:31:08 2020. Not to mention the minimal if any noise. With an Air train type of structure, welded rail & the quieter equiptment (no spur cut gearing e.g.), the next elevated line would not be your grandfathers El |
|
|
| (1537484) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:13:19 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 5 20:41:32 2020. The Culver and Fulton subway connections would have happened anyhow regardless of the status of the SAS. |
|
|
| (1537486) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:35:27 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Feb 5 23:28:35 2020. That’s what I alluded to. |
|
|
| (1537487) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:37:48 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by W.B. on Thu Feb 6 12:58:25 2020. After the IND started being built, all subway or subway like work was ornamented IND style like 8 Av/14 St, Fulton and Broad St on the Nassau St Line. |
|
|
| (1537488) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:38:25 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 11:49:51 2020. No, just bad enough!!! |
|
|
| (1537489) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:40:44 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Feb 6 02:57:45 2020. Culver, Fulton and Rockaway were in the plans well before unification. |
|
|
| (1537490) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:51:15 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:31:08 2020. Looking at some of the phoots of Manhattan’s old els, I fail to see what the problem was regarding the lack of sunlight. the photos I have seen show the el structures well in the middle of the avenues leaving room for plenty of sunlight to shine on the sidewalks wher most of the people were walking anyhow. |
|
|
| (1537491) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:54:56 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:22:30 2020. Grandfathered in from the old B of T days. Despite the fact the the NYCTA was created by the state, the city civil service system remained the enabler for transit employees. Whenever I took my civil service exams for TA positions, there was a suffix in parentheses (BT) indicating the department to which the employee would be assigned. |
|
|
| (1537494) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Feb 6 19:16:39 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Feb 6 16:43:31 2020. If there is one lesson learned about Robert Moses, is to never again let one person have so much power and so much influence over so many lives for so many years as he did. |
|
|
| (1537495) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Feb 6 21:28:46 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by W.B. on Thu Feb 6 12:58:25 2020. A more likely reason for building underground LIRR lines was to facilitate conversion to subway service at some point. |
|
|
| (1537496) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Feb 6 21:46:24 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Feb 6 21:28:46 2020. or a shared line.Subway on the local tracks making local stops and LIRR limited stops on middle/express tracks. |
|
|
| (1537498) | |
Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 6 21:57:25 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:54:56 2020. Thanks for the info. |
|
|
|
|
Page 1 of 4 |
|
