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| (1508947) | |
Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 31 22:40:48 2019, in response to Re: Will there be new 75-foot cars?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Mar 31 22:21:13 2019. The point being that by the time the last 75 foot cars are disposed of, there won’t be any more R-62s. |
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| (1508953) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 1 02:35:40 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by zac on Sun Mar 31 21:53:57 2019. There still needs to be capacity for expansion since the infrastructure of the NYCTS is still in a rather tenuous condition. In addition to the transfer at Franklin which would by the way be easier than the one at Metrotech, it would also provide an additional transfer to the IRT as an alternative to the one at Atlantic/Barclay. |
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| (1508954) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Apr 1 03:04:08 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Sun Mar 31 19:16:15 2019. Remember that the Transit Authority wanted to do away with the entire Franklin Avenue shuttle operation! Remember the time when the Franklin Avenue shuttle was a messy derelict subway line? The TA wanted to replace the shuttle with a bus operation. It was local community input and protest that got the MTA to re-consider and the Franklin Avenue shuttle line was rebuilt from almost stem to stern.Mike |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1508955) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 1 03:04:50 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 31 15:36:57 2019. Maybe that would mean there'd be a new "B" train - the Bezos exoress! |
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| (1508962) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 1 09:59:19 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Sun Mar 31 19:16:15 2019. They still can divert a Brighton train onto the Franklin. Can relay back to the southbound. |
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| (1508964) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 1 10:06:19 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Michael549 on Mon Apr 1 03:04:08 2019. BRING BACK THE CULVER SHUTTLE! |
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| (1509010) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 1 17:35:42 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 1 09:59:19 2019. True, but if a 600 ft train were allowed all the way to Fkln passengers could transfer to other lines instead of being dead ended. |
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| (1509034) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Apr 2 00:30:07 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Apr 1 10:06:19 2019. Yeah, but you'd need a few more AB's to put it back in revenue service. |
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| (1509097) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 2 17:12:46 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Express Rider on Tue Apr 2 00:30:07 2019. Not really. When I was M/M on it there was a train of R-16s there. |
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| (1509107) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Apr 2 19:16:01 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Tue Apr 2 17:12:46 2019. I know. I was making a joking reference to bygone "BMT days." |
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| (1509238) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 4 15:21:05 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 31 15:57:41 2019. Connecting north Brooklyn (and parts of Queens) with south Brooklyn without having to go through Manhattan. Makes far better use of the existing Franklin Shuttle with those rebuilt to full stations. |
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| (1509239) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 4 15:24:38 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 1 02:35:40 2019. Exactly!!That was only part of it. This "Black V" opens up a lot of transfers. It also could have a direct connection to the Broadway-Brooklyn Line that in an emergency (or otherwise) could be used for re-routes either right back to Brooklyn via Nassau or via 6th or even 8th Avenues via Chrystie. It would double in having a ton of new flexibility in the system. |
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| (1509240) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 4 15:26:25 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 1 17:35:42 2019. Exactly!! |
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| (1509249) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Apr 4 19:02:27 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 4 15:21:05 2019. I agree Or maybe get it to the G line middle track at Bedford-Nostrand |
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| (1509287) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Apr 5 08:27:04 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 4 15:21:05 2019. Assuming it's even possible without demolishing a LOT of houses, and fighting the NIMBYs who would probably never agree to an el. That being said, there might actually be some benefit to it, but I don't see it being enough to warrant that big of a change. |
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| (1509343) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Apr 5 16:08:36 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by 3-9 on Fri Apr 5 08:27:04 2019. The original plans for a crosstown line which would probably have been operated by the BMT called for an el, but due to the NIMBYs, construction was delayed long enough that it eventually became the present IND Crosstown (G) Line as a subway. |
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| (1509365) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Apr 5 21:57:24 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Fri Apr 5 16:08:36 2019. Yep. Supposed to hook up with the Queensboro Plaza Elevated station. |
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| (1509373) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Apr 6 07:57:08 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Apr 5 21:57:24 2019. I heard that the bent(s) where the provision was made for this line are still visible. |
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| (1509379) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 6 11:25:41 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 4 15:21:05 2019. The major problem I see with that is that portions of it would be within the catchment area of the G. I do agree that more Brooklyn-Queens crosstown options are needed, but further east would make more sense. The proposed IND line from Roosevelt upper is better placed in that regard. |
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| (1509380) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 6 12:32:14 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Fri Apr 5 16:08:36 2019. It was more than that. The BRT's bankruptcy after the Malbone St disaster ended a lot of proposed routes. Reorganized a the BMT, the new company was reluctant to purchase new cars and equipment for the Crosstown line, Ashland Place connection, and most of the other proposals. The only thing it really wanted, back then, was the completion of the 14th Street line to Broadway Junction and the Nassau Connector from Chambers St to the Montague St tunnel. The City planners for the IND Crosstown line decided to go with the Lafayette Ave segment, instead of Franklin Ave. The original plans for a Lafayette Ave subway date back to 1908. The IRT had proposed a a route fron Lafayette, connected through Nevins St (hence that mysterious lower level), and via the Manhattan bridge to a rebuilt 3rd Ave el. |
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| (1509387) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Apr 6 18:37:45 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 6 12:32:14 2019. What doomed the Ashland Pl connection according to a circa 1914 PSC report I read, was a dispute between the city and the BRT as to who would build a new station at Willy B Plaza. The BRT wanted the city to build it and the city wanted the BRT to build. For some reason it was piggy backed with the third tracking of the Fulton el west (RR north) of Nostrand Av and east (RR south) of Hinsdale St. The desire of the city to have the BRT relocate the downtown Bkln portion of the Fulton El off Fulton and onto Adams St was added to the mix. While the dispute was ongoing, no further upgrading of the Fulton el beyond what was already in progress was done. Add to this mix Mayor Hylan’s vendetta against the BRT abd its successors, the reorganized BMT was in no position either financially or politically to build any further lines other than the Nassau St connection. As for Nevins St lower, that was intended to connect to the 4th Av Subway which the IRT hoped to get but which was instead assigned by the pSC to the BRT. Incensed as being denied an additional line in Bkln beyond the E/Pky and Nostrand lines, the iRT withdrew from further dual contract negotiations with the PSC. Faced with this, the PSC had the Lex Ave, Pelham and Jerome Lines originally intended for the IRT constructed to the larger BRT specs and started construction on a lower portion of the Lex subway between Madison Sq (23 St) and Grand Central to connect to what is the existing Lex Line. Since most of the IRT’s existing lines were in Manhattan and the Bronx. the company soon realized that it would be more important to have the additional Bronx lines than an additional line in Bkln and reentered negotiations. The Lex Line N/O G/Cent and the new Bronx lines were again given to the IRT which is why those lines are built to BMT clearances and for many years, you could see metal platform extensions on those lines to fill the gap between the original platform construction and the smaller car bodies of the IRT. The larger clearances were also taken into consideration when later, the city made plans top connect the SAS to the Pelham Line in the Bronx if the lie had been built as originally planned. Since the BRT/BMT clearance had become state of the art by the time of the dual contracts, it was also intended to have the 7 Av IRT Subway built to the larger clearances. I was soon realize, however that it would be useless to have a larger subway connected to the original (or “First Subway”) since newer cars of a larger design could not fit in the older tunnels. Thus while the lower portion of the west side IRT was built to slightly larger clearances than the original subway, it was not built to full BRT/BMT specs. |
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| (1509397) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 6 22:12:31 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Sat Apr 6 18:37:45 2019. I'll start with Nevins Street. Yes, Nevins St was considered for the 4th Ave subway, but that would become one of the disputed routes right before the Dual Contracts. What I am talking about was the original proposal that the IRT made in 1908. They offered to rebuild the 3rd Ave el for steel cars, if they could get the 2 northside tracks for the Manhattan Bridge. Coming off of the bridge and Flatbush Ave, the new line would use the Nevins St lower level and swing off to Lafayette Ave. The bridge bound trains would come into Nevins from Lafayette on the NB local track and switch off to the right just beyond the platform (a door pocket existed here). This was at least 3 years before the Lexington Ave subway plans were drawn. The 4th Ave subway dispute, that you mention, came later.I never read anything about the WillyB Plaza station being tied to the Fulton St el work. What killed Ashland Place was the BRT bankruptcy on the last day of 1918. It discouraged any new projects, except the Standards (2500-2899) continued to be built from 1919-1923. Also, 27 sets of C cars were built from gate cars. The new BMT added 50 trailers (4000-4049) in 1924 as an economy move. But, the BMT did not want to fund the cars or equipment for Ashland Place. After initial talks for, the BMT said it could not afford to equip it. That would have required 200 additional Standard motors at a price of $40 million. Instead, they ended the Ashland Place talks in 1926, while turning their attention to producing the Triplexes and pushing for completion of the 14th St and Nassau-Montague projects. The bottom line for Adams St and other proposals for the Fulton St el were blocked by the BMT. The KCERR had the highest ridership of any original elevated line. The BMT had received franchise rights to operate over the Brooklyn Bridge from the former BRT, which had obtained the 1896 charter fron the Kings County Elevated Ry in 1900. They did NOT wish to jeopardize that franchise! PS: I agree with everything else that you wrote, Randy!!! |
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| (1509399) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Apr 7 07:14:29 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Sat Apr 6 18:37:45 2019. started construction on a lower portion of the Lex subway between Madison Sq (23 St) and Grand Central to connect to what is the existing Lex Line.Are there any traces of this construction today? |
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| (1509425) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 7 13:15:20 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by 3-9 on Sun Apr 7 07:14:29 2019. Nope.Same with the Madison Avenue subway. Started,but work stopped just as fast...with no traces of any work being done. |
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| (1509445) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 7 23:42:01 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 6 22:12:31 2019. As i mentioned, my source was a PSC report from that period. |
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| (1509446) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 7 23:42:46 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Edwards! on Sun Apr 7 13:15:20 2019. What portions of the lower Lex subway were filled in. |
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| (1509454) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 8 03:50:57 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 7 23:42:46 2019. There is a short article about this by Rogoff, IIRC, that appeared maybe sometime during the first five years of the NY Div. Bulletin. |
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| (1509473) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Apr 8 08:46:30 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 8 03:50:57 2019. from 23 to 40th streets were filled in.no tunnels were built. |
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| (1509509) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Apr 8 18:31:48 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 8 03:50:57 2019. There is a short article about this by Rogoff, IIRC, that appeared maybe sometime during the first five years of the NY Div. Bulletin. "New York's Only Abandoned Subway" by Mr. David Rogoff ERA New York Divison Bulletin / September 1961 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1509523) | |
Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Apr 8 22:47:20 2019, in response to Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Apr 8 18:31:48 2019. yes, that's right.Thanks! :) |
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