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| Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? (1507039) | |
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| (1507533) | |
Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 16:03:56 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 19 10:24:13 2019. The problem in NYC is also that if you remove enough cars from Manhattan, the transit system couldn’t handle the extra passengers that would be forced into it. In a classic case of the “chicken or the egg” theory of transit planning, additional rapid transit lines would have to be built BEFORE cars were restricted from entering the CBD. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 19 16:23:39 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Mar 18 18:58:32 2019. Little bridges? |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Mar 19 16:23:57 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 16:03:56 2019. Perhaps the problem is that Manhattan is overbuilt. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 16:37:31 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Mar 19 09:23:08 2019. I’m not exactly sure of the year, but one of the TWU contracts with NYCT and MABSTOA contained a provision that MABSTOA would be eliminated as a separate agency and its employees would become NYCT employees. It obviously never happened but no explanation was ever forthcoming. As for employees being interchangeable, it started with management when NYCT managers were sent to MABSTOA and MABSTOA managers were sent to NYCT. In addition NYCT employees represented by TWU can pick MABSTOA depots and MABSTOA employees can pick NYCT depots. With Prince Andrew in charge, I suspect that it would also be easier to change the laws and change the structure of the various constituent agencies of the MTA. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 19 18:09:19 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 16:03:56 2019. The problem in NYC is also that if you remove enough cars from Manhattan, the transit system couldn’t handle the extra passengers that would be forced into it.That's not true for the peak hour and periods for the CBD. The number of people entering the CBD by subway between 8 and 9 am was 604K in 1963 vs. 401K in 2017. The number of people entering the CBD by subway between 7 and 10 am was 1.157M in 1963 vs. 913K in 2017. The number of people entering the CBD by subway over 24 hours was 1.988M in 1963 vs. 2.314M in 2017. The number of subway passengers entering the CBD for the 3 time periods declined in lockstep from 1963 until 1985. Since then, the number of CBD bound subway passengers in the peak hour (8-9) and period (7-10) continued to decline whereas the 24 hour total started increasing. The MTA has maintained peak hour and period crowding by decreasing the service levels. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 19 18:30:46 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 16:03:56 2019. Yup. That is why I close the free bridges to cars, and at the same time close the parking lanes on 5th 6th 7th and 8th Avenues, and run large bendy-beeeses there. The bus will be free, in the meanwhile, gongestion pricing: $2.00 upon entry at 60th Street or other bridge or tunnel access points. Add $1.00 for every ten avenue blocks passed plus $5.00 to enter south of Canal.ROARING |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 19 18:34:26 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Edwards! on Tue Mar 19 16:23:39 2019. The Manhattan, Brooklyn and Williamsburg.That is they do not access parkways or expressways. Might be a big bridge physic ally,. but they do not acces big roads. ROAR |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 18:45:22 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Steamdriven on Tue Mar 19 16:23:57 2019. That’s probably why Citicorp opened in Queens and SIAC located in downtown Bkln. However, whether Manhattan is overbuilt or not is of little consequence if the problem exists and needs to be addressed NOW. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 18:48:16 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 19 18:09:19 2019. But don’t forget there were different operating rules on the NYCTA that allowed operation of more trains since M/M were allowed to key by signals allowing trains to close in on each other. Since that practice has been disallowed, fewer trains can be operated. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 18:51:01 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 19 18:30:46 2019. Closing the free bridges to cars will only exacerbate the overcrowding that exists on the transit system. The IRT Lex Line and the IND and IRT Queens lines are operating at capacity right now and can’t accept any more passengers. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:35:52 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 19 18:09:19 2019. What about the impact of the number of commuters living in rural areas who come in from NJ (rail and bus); from north of the Bronx, LI and CT. via LIRR and MN? Also, not as many people living on SI pre-VZ bridge.Those numbers were miniscule in 1963 vs. today. Commuters coming in to NYC are much more spread out today. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 19:37:02 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:35:52 2019. What is your point? His numbers are irrespective of origin. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:43:28 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 19 18:34:26 2019. The Williamsburg accesses the BQE, I278. I would consider that a big road. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:51:27 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 19:37:02 2019. The point is (reread my first few words) is that there were fewer suburban dwellers in 1963 than today. Therefore, the pool of workers to take these jobs in NYC had to come from NYC, therefore higher ridership in 1963 than today. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 20:42:38 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:51:27 2019. Good point, but his post doesn’t explain why peak ridership fell. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 20:50:17 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 20:42:38 2019. I think because there are more cars on our streets today. It's getting more and more difficult to park in residential areas. People are also commuting by car and not necessarily to the CBD. Lots of traffic going (with one person in each car) reverse commuting on the LIE in the rush.I notice this when my wife has an early morning doctors appointment in Lake Success. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 21:13:58 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 20:50:17 2019. IAWTP |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 19 22:34:52 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 18:48:16 2019. For a given emergency braking rate, service braking rate, acceleration rate and train length, there is speed that minimizes headways with the follower traveling at a safe distance behind the leader. (Save distance is at a speed so that application of the emergency brakes will stop the train before a collision.)The follower going faster or slower than this speed will result in greater headways. Thus, closing in on a leader at a slower speed will result in greater headways. Keying by is not the strategy to follow, to reduce headways. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 00:38:51 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 19 22:34:52 2019. So increase the emergency braking rate, and have the brakes clamp on with a little ramp-up, say 3/4 second from release to emergency. That's more than enough time for one's reflexes to kick in. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:51:26 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 18:51:01 2019. I do not see why peeps should bring their cars into the city in the first place. Close the city to cars and run more beese across the East River Bridges.You can buy beese faster than you can build LRVs, but LRVs will eventually take over for such traffic.ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:52:41 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:43:28 2019. And what does it access on da udder side. A jambed up sity street.ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:55:18 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 00:38:51 2019. Bowling for passengers!Stop to fast and you will knock them all down Once upon a time we had a happy medium, but she passed away several years ago. ROARING |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Mar 20 13:38:31 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:51:26 2019. Many people have mobility problems or are physically sick and the subway is not friendly to them. Elevators and escalators, at station that have them, have high breakdown rates. Stairs are killers. AT this time, there are only so many local bus routes into the city over the bridges. Even if these people would take the buses, likely 3 buses would be needed.There are many hospitals in the city which have patients from all 5 boros. I myself have 2 bum knees and neuropathy in both feet. Subways/buses/walking is not an option. Believe me, I do not like paying tolls and parking fees. There are many specialty hospitals in NYC, like Sloan Kettering Cancer Hospital, NYU Medical Center and so many others on the East Side on NY. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Mar 20 13:40:47 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:52:41 2019. You did not specify both sides of the bridge. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 20 14:12:35 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Mar 20 13:38:31 2019. PWN3D! |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 15:43:14 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:51:26 2019. I'm disabled and can't take a bus, tried it and needed weeks to recover. Even car travel is a problem, I have to ride in a vehicle where I can get at least 45 degrees reclined, and if it has a stiff suspension I'm still F'd (the old Town Cars were the only good taxis for my condition). There are other people with similar issues, it's small by percentage but far from zero.You can't take a bus while carrying stuff, even something as trivial as your dry cleaning. Doesn't work for groceries, unless you like someone coughing, sneezing, possibly spitting on your food, or just having it burst out of the bottom of the bag when condensation wets it. The heavy, frozen stuff is on the bottom. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 20 15:53:24 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 15:43:14 2019. as a non driver (low vision) I shop for groceries by bus all the time. my backpack doesn't melt away from damp stuff and zips up as far as staying clean. I can't remember the last time I used a paper sack. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 15:54:57 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Mar 20 10:55:18 2019. Yeah in theory you'd have a stack of knocked-over passenger, in practice not. I've been on PCCs and a few LRVs that hit track brake, which halts better than any subway car. At least in those instances there were zero people launched towards the windshield. There was a loud buzzer connected to the track brake, which gave notice to hang on to something. Soften the e-brake apply so it takes 1/2 or even a full second from 0 to 4,5,or 6 mph/sec (Boeing LRV track brake can do 7).But now that you mention it, perhaps the phone addicted, daydreaming px need the occasional wake-up call. Track brakes on the subway could create a game, prize is a monthly pass. The question is whether the bowling or bowled over px get the points? ;-) |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 20 15:59:36 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 19 16:37:31 2019. It probably never happened because it would have been more expensive for management. Maybe pension benefits are better for NYCT employees than MaBSTOA. Prince Andrew has been in charge long enough if it was a change he really wanted to make and there is no union opposition. |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 16:00:53 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 20 15:53:24 2019. You have a good system. I had something similar when I did errands by bicycle, which I much preferred to using the car. I had a carrier which was sized for a grocery bag, it was paired with one carrier on each side of the rear wheel. One could place a third bag atop the rack the carrier hung from. For whatever reason almost no one does that, they take a cab with groceries. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 16:01:19 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Mar 20 15:53:24 2019. You have a good system. I had something similar when I did errands by bicycle, which I much preferred to using the car. I had a carrier which was sized for a grocery bag, it was paired with one carrier on each side of the rear wheel. One could place a third bag atop the rack the carrier hung from. For whatever reason almost no one does that, they take a cab with groceries. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 20 16:01:35 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Mar 19 10:11:59 2019. How so? |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Mar 20 16:19:52 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Mar 20 13:38:31 2019. Not to mention the Hospital for Special Surgery is also on the East Side. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:43:15 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 19 19:51:27 2019. Even if there are more suburbanites today than back then, many of them would still need to use the subways to get from PABT, NYP, or GCT to their final destinations in the city. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:53:15 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 19 22:34:52 2019. However, in the past, keying by worked. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 19:15:01 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 20 15:59:36 2019. I do know that there is some sort of difference between MABSTOA and NYCTA pensions, but I can’t see why a merger would be more expensive fo management since at least in Manhattan, borough administration between the 126 St Manhattan NYCTA depot and the MABSTOA bus depots can be consolidated under one general supt rather than a separate one for TA and OA which is probably the case now. Although Prince Andrew has been in charge for a while, he may not be aware of the old contract provision since it happened long before he got elected. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Mar 20 23:31:49 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 19:15:01 2019. What I was hinting at is maybe there are better pension benefits for NYCTA employees than for MaBSTOA so converting employees would cost them more.What I heard is that MaBSTOA pensions come out of the farebox where NYCTA pensions do not. That at least would be an impediment to making fares free which probably would never happen anyway. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 10:36:13 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Mar 20 13:38:31 2019. And it would cost how much to park at one of these facilities???LION thins if was him it, him would take a Taxi Cab. Gotta be cheaper than owning a car in that city. LION nose about the nuropathy, him has has it for years, and him nose all about the stairways, him can only climb one at a time and must use the left hand railing. SO if in the city living am I, an car I would not own. But living out here the nearest hospital is 25 miles away, and the nearest full service clinic and hospital is 75 miles away. At least we do not have to pay for parking. In Dickinson or Bismarck one can arrange a para-transit service to get ewe to your appointments or shopping. We do not even have a subway out here. Well, the cows have subways so that they can cross the roads safely, and you can always ged subway sandywitches, but transit... (joke) ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 10:38:05 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 20 14:12:35 2019. I pused my PWN to the back line and made of it a QUEEN!Phfffttttt..... |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 10:39:41 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Mar 20 16:19:52 2019. There are so many transit opportunites in that city, LION understands not about which you talk. All of them Hospitals anre NORTH of 60th street and wood not be affected by the Ban o de LION.ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 10:43:08 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 15:43:14 2019. Well, clerly your issues are not at all affected by a ban of cars.When LION says BAN-ALL-CARS, obviously there are exceptions. Apply at your social services office for special plates. ROAR |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 21 10:51:37 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 10:36:13 2019. The economics of owning a car in NYC depend on where you take trips to, and how often. I owned a car continuously for 46 years. But gradually almost all our reasons to drive to places directly from home faded away as family died and/or moved, and we gave up our car, saving $5,000 a year in return for a handful of extra car rentals and taxis.*But if you live in the outer boroughs, and have lots of places to travel to in the suburbs or elsewhere in the boroughs, the cabs or rentals can add up pretty quickly. * Driving places while at a vacation destination that we flew to always required a rental car, so those aren't extra car rentals. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 21 10:55:41 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Mar 20 16:01:19 2019. For whatever reason almost no one does that, they take a cab with groceries.Because bicycling in the city is dangerous, maybe, and you can carry far more groceries in a cab. We have a decent supermarket in walking distance, which is where we get perishables. Almost all non-perishable groceries are now available over the internet. (Can't find seltzer - just too heavy to ship for its value, I guess.) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 21 12:29:48 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 20 18:53:15 2019. in the past, keying by worked.That depends on one's definition of "worked". In this context, I'm assuming "keying-by" was necessary to maintain the past's shorter headways. By necessary, I mean that without "keying-by" those shorter headways could not be maintained. I think this is a valid interpretation for "worked" in this context. If there were instances where the past headways were maintained while not employing keying-by, then your "worked" statement is incorrect within the constraints of the this definition. I can attest, to the best of my ability, that I have witnessed 100 second headways on the Flushing Line without the T/O resorting to keying-by. The documented 86 second headways on the Third Avenue El were before my time. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 21 13:02:29 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 19 18:34:26 2019. Williamsburg Bridge has a direct ramp to 278/BQE in Brooklyn.The Brooklyn Bridge has a direct link to both the 278 BQE ROAD and FDR in Manhattan. The Manhattan and Queensboro spans are the only bridges that are not connected directly. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 13:16:20 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 21 13:02:29 2019. FDR does not count as a major road.ROAR |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 21 13:17:05 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 21 10:55:41 2019. Hell yeah..riding a bike in NYC is basically taking your life and putting it in God's hands.Demolition derby. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 21 13:20:16 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 10:43:08 2019. 😑The DMV will issue handicap plates and tags to those that can prove such a case. We have them due to the Wife's busted knee. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 21 13:25:05 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 13:16:20 2019. Why wouldn't it?Just because it doesnt carry an Interstate ID? Its still a limited access parkway system with COMMON connections to the I system. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Mar 21 13:25:05 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Mar 21 13:16:20 2019. Why wouldn't it?Just because it doesnt carry an Interstate ID? Its still a limited access parkway system with COMMON connections to the I system. |
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