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| Should the city take back its buses and subways? (1507039) | |
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| (1507039) | |
Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 12:09:06 2019 Queens Chronicle |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Allan on Fri Mar 15 12:36:02 2019, in response to Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 12:09:06 2019. This a rare occasion when one Allan (me) is in agreement with the other Allan (BrooklynBus). |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 13:58:58 2019, in response to Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 12:09:06 2019. I read the article. I agree that having the City take over/take back the subways and buses is no panacea. The City did a pretty lousy job overseeing the system from 1904-1940, and running it directly from 1940-1968. Hence= the creation of MTA.I think there's no good reason to go back to an idea that failed the first time it was tried. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Fri Mar 15 14:36:35 2019, in response to Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 12:09:06 2019. I can think of the two "D's" should that ever happen...Deficits and Debt!When during the IND's early years of operation, and with the five cent fare, it was costing the BoT fourteen cents per riding passenger, thus losing nine cents. -William A. Padron ["Independent System"] |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 15 15:00:06 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 13:58:58 2019. If there is not a permanent but subject to COLA funding mechanism, the economics are hopeless. As to whether a city or a state entity is more or less likely to be full of incompetent personnel and corrupt behavior, that is a toss up.I believe MTA was created among other reasons was to isolate the mayor from the raise the fare, lose the next election problem. As well something had to be done to keep LIR running. The issues of which transport modes get favored will always be a tug of war; we should be pleased there so many people who want to be in NYC. As a counter example, when I was in South Bend IN a decade ago there were NO traffic jams because the city has insufficient employment. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Mar 15 15:16:18 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 13:58:58 2019. The city did a lousy job?What are you talking about? |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 16:10:42 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Mar 15 15:16:18 2019. Well, wasn't the system perpetually bankrupt back then- just like now? Everyone knew that the fare couldn't stay at $0.05- yet for political reasons it did...I mean, I wasn't on the planet in the pre-MTA days...but that's my take on this history. Not that the MTA has done a stellar job either. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 16:11:49 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 15 15:00:06 2019. I agree. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Fri Mar 15 16:28:54 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 15 15:00:06 2019. A decade ago we were in the midst of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 17:16:12 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 13:58:58 2019. Starting in 1953, the city didn’t really directly run the subways since the state created the New York City Transit Authority to run the subways as a non mayoral agency. The MTA only came in in 1968. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 17:17:40 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Mar 15 14:36:35 2019. That’s because the 5 cent fare was out of date and insufficient even back in the 1930s. 10 cents or even 15 cents would have been more realistic. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 18:22:03 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Mar 15 14:36:35 2019. When during the IND's early years of operation, and with the five cent fare, it was costing the BoT fourteen cents per riding passenger, thus losing nine cents.Sounds like a good story. If one looks at the 1941-1945 BOT report (available on the web), the income statement tells a different story. Between 1941 and 1945, the revenues from passenger and freight operations exceeded the operating costs by quite a bit. In 1945, passenger and freight revenues were: $717M and $317M respectively, Operating expenses were $886M. The total passenger and freight revenues were $1.034B and the surplus was $148M. There was additional income advertising and rents that brought total revenues up to $1.268B. The operating expenses included: maintenance of way and structures; maintenance of equipment; depreciation; power; operation of cars; injuries and damages expended; injuries and damages reserved; general and miscellaneous; and operating rentals. The results were similar for the years 1941 through 1944. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 19:19:32 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 18:22:03 2019. Where can I find that BOT report? I tried to look it up on the web and got everything but. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 19:19:46 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 18:22:03 2019. Where can I find that BOT report? I tried to look it up on the web and got everything but. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 15 19:33:09 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 18:22:03 2019. BOT reports are available on-line?OK, I guess it shouldn't surprise me, I just never thought about it before. For these reports, including the one requested by randyo, is googling New York City Board of Transportation annual reports good enough or do I need to enter something more specific in the search field. Thanks! |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 19:37:56 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 19:19:46 2019. Go to the NYC Board of Transportation wikipedia page and follow the references.https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015020928621;view=1up;seq=8 The 3 1/2 year 1945-1949 report is also linked there. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015023094926 |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Mar 15 20:02:43 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 16:10:42 2019. I don't think there's anyway to make it profitable. Even in 1904 it was a complicated system that required constant care and maintenance. The equipment is extremely expensive to boot. But as a railroad it was probably managed very well. I believe we are talking about 2 different things though. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 20:16:23 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 15 16:10:42 2019. Well, wasn't the system perpetually bankrupt back then- just like now?The IRT and BRT covered their operating costs with the 5 cent fare. The revenue excess allowed them to pay interest on the bonds the issued. It was the WWI inflation that wrecked this. Everyone knew that the fare couldn't stay at $0.05- yet for political reasons it did... Neither the IRT nor BRT foresaw the WW I inflation. The 5 cent fare was part of the 1904 and 1910 contracts, that the IRT and BRT willingly signed. The big problem wasn't covering operating costs; it was paying off the bondholders. Unification was the only way the IRT bondholders could recover their investment. It was their salvation. The BRT bondholders took a bath, when the BRT was re-organized as the BMT. The BMT fought unification, whereas the IRT receivers saw it as their salvation. Not that the MTA has done a stellar job either. The MTA fares do not cover its operating costs. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 20:37:43 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 15 15:00:06 2019. The NYCTA was created to isolate the mayor from fare increases.The MTA was created to get Robert Moses out of power by running the bridges and tunnnels. The subways and buses were added several years later. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 20:40:33 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 20:16:23 2019. But arent the biggest problem with the MTA covering its expenses paying off the bonds and the cost of pensions, not actually the operating costs? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 20:43:44 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 17:16:12 2019. The State may have created the NYCTA, but then it’s job was done. Although the subways and buses weren’t under mayoral control, it was still considered a city entity. Even after the state took over the MTA, subway and bus employees continue to receive a city pension, not a state pension, not that that matters. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 21:16:32 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 20:40:33 2019. But arent the biggest problem with the MTA covering its expenses paying off the bonds and the cost of pensions, not actually the operating costs?If fares don't cover operating costs, then covering bonds and pensions is an even bigger problem. According to the 2017 NTD tables and profile, NYCT's total operating expenses are $8.1B and the fare revenue is $4.5B. The tables show that fringe benefits are roughly equal to salaries. That's fairly standard, so they don't include pension payments. The operating expenses do not include bond payments. NYCT's long term pension liabilities are listed as $6.1B out of total long term liabilities of $23.7B. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 21:20:16 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Express Rider on Fri Mar 15 19:33:09 2019. Stephan responded to my request and has posted the links. |
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| (1507121) | |
Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 21:32:59 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 20:37:43 2019. Actually the original agency was the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority (MCTA) which took over the LIRR. In 1968 the agency was changed to the MTA and immediately took over the operations of the NYCTA subways and buses. Not sure when Bridges and Tunnels fell under the MTA umbrella. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 21:36:36 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 21:32:59 2019. According to Wikipedia, MTA took over B & T in 1968, the same year the it took over the subways. |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Fri Mar 15 22:46:37 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 18:22:03 2019. Well then, we should require the NYCTA to run at a profit like they did in the 40s and 50s. Technology is vastly better, and whatever the hours now consumed are, the required hours of labor per mile of operation are less. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 15 22:54:25 2019, in response to Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 12:09:06 2019. The Corey Johnson thread was about this, and they weren't the city's to begin with for them to "take back". How about bringing back the IRT and BMT, and spinning off the IND as a truly independent company? I'll save the bus thingy for Buschat; and it ought to be up to the private sector whether or not to convert bus lines that started as streetcar lines back to streetcars. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 23:52:51 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 15 22:54:25 2019. they weren't the city's to begin with for them to "take back"No. NYC owned them. The IRT and BMT leased them. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Mar 16 03:35:38 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 21:20:16 2019. Thank you Stephen, for posting these, and randyo, for your reply. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 16 08:54:59 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 23:52:51 2019. PWN3D! |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 10:56:37 2019, in response to Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Mar 15 12:09:06 2019. REPLYG of LION to Chronickle:Congestion? Congestion? The CARS are the problem. Get rid of the cars and there will be no congestion. I realize that Queens is different than Manhattan, but congestion pricing in Manhattan makes perfect sense. So do exclusive bus lanes. Medallion Cabs and delivery trucks should be exempt from congestion pricing. Others should be charged about $1.00 for every ten blocks they travel. Sensors would obviously be on the Avenues only, no point of them on the streets, especially since streets ought to be for trucks only. As far as exclusive bus lanes, The parking lanes should be removed from the Avenues and repalced with exclusive bus lanes. The large bendy-buses should be used, and they should be all fare-free. (Let us just assume that they will pay their fare when they transfer to the subway. People moving around the CBD should not be bothered with fares, least not if you want to keep things moving which is the whole idea. Bike Lanes should be eliminated. Bicycles are vehicles like any other and have the right to operate in the roadway along with other traffic. As for the mayor being able to raise taxes... (BIG JOKE) ...That will be a one-way short cut to Venezuela.. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 11:09:48 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 21:16:32 2019. The farebox should cover operating costs, tax income and other revenues ought to cover additional expenses.There is probably no fare that people would be willing to pay that could cover the expenses of the MTA. The MTA is a money sucking machine, but what else can bve done to operate a subway. You want the 'RICH' to pay their fair fare, then the fare should be AT LEAST $3.00, maybe even $5.00. From that point work out discounts for those who as knead them. ROAR |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 11:16:07 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 11:09:48 2019. The farebox should cover operating costs,Should this principle be applied to other transportation modes, e.g. motor vehicles? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 11:17:41 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 10:56:37 2019. Congestion? Congestion? The CARS are the problem.The number of motor vehicles entering Manhattan's CBD (below 60th St) is at a 30 year low. |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Mar 16 12:10:40 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 10:56:37 2019. Hahahahahahaahahaha |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 16 14:08:23 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 15 21:36:36 2019. MTA Chairman, William Ronan, knew how powerful Robert Moses was. So, he baited the hook with a n MTA Commissioner. After the TB&TA was absorbed into the MTA, Ronan froze out Moses by not inviting him to board meetings or other functions.I personally believe that a new NYCTA could work. The 1968 MTA was a lot different than the bloated bureaucratic entity it is today. They are bleeding NYC with high priced management, unneeded consultants, and sweetheart contracts with shady contractors. All of those TB&TA tolls and other incomes should go to the City, instead of the MTA. Also, put tolls on the free bridges over the East River. I'm still undecided about congestion pricing. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 14:20:04 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Mar 16 14:08:23 2019. Also, put tolls on the free bridges over the East River.There's a problem. US highway funds are limited to free highways. NYS/NYC would be liable for reimbursing the Feds for the $10B+ spent on making the Bklyn, Manh, WB and Qboro structurally sound. The roadway replacement has a 35 year life. The first of these rehabs is due for another round. The cordon toll gets around this restriction because the tolled roads are not the highways eligible for federal maintenance funding. It's got nothing to do with congestion. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 15:24:50 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 11:16:07 2019. yes |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 16 15:39:16 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Steamdriven on Fri Mar 15 22:46:37 2019. AFAIK neither the B of T nor the NYCTA ever ran at a profit.I seem to recall seeing somewhere that after the NYCTA was formed, even though no city tax money was supposed to be used for the subways the agency received a subsidy from the city supposedly to pay for the free rides allowed to police officers and firefighters. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 16 16:11:26 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 15 23:52:51 2019. And the city still owns them, the MTA merely operates them. One problem arises with the city’s taking over the operation of the subways is the ownership of the rolling stock, signal equipment, and other infrastructure items. Back in the pre MTA days, the rolling stock was actually purchased by and property of the City of New York. Starting with the R-32s certain of the rolling stock was purchased by the NYCTA and not the city. Signal contracts were also between the signal supplier and the city not the NYCTA. Later equipment was purchased outright by the MTA. Now in all likelihood the MTA will continue to exist to operate the LIRR and M/N and probably even the bridges and tunnels. The city if it were to take over complete operation of the subways and buses would either have to pay rental on the equipment such as the buses and rolling stock or purchase them outright because I doubt that Prince Andrew would allow such a large part of a state agency to be removed without some sort of heavy penalty. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 16:59:36 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 16 15:24:50 2019. What percentage of state and local road spending do you believe are covered by motor vehicle directed taxes, tolls and user fees in ND? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 17:25:02 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 16 16:11:26 2019. Nassau County got its buses out from the MTA without Cuomo getting upset.Back in the pre MTA days, the rolling stock was actually purchased by and property of the City of New York. The NYC purchases were the result of NYCTA selling the IRT and BMT power plants to Con Ed. NYC received the proceeds and doled them back to NYCTA. When NYCTA and MTA could not finance through asset sales, they resorted to floating bonds. The bigger question is who will be responsible for the bonds and other long term liabilities, if NYC exercises its option to leave the MTA. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 16 18:08:33 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 16:59:36 2019. There are tolls in ND? Never knew that. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 16 18:14:44 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 16 18:08:33 2019. LOL! No there aren't. They use their federal mooch money for roads. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 16 19:19:44 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 16 15:39:16 2019. "...to pay for the free rides allowed to police officers and firefighters."That had to be akin to a drop in the bucket in terms of overall NYCTA expenses. Besides, giving cops free rides on the subways & buses is backdoor extra rider protection. AFAIK, if a crime is going down & an off duty cop is riding in that car or bus, he/she dosen't look the other way a/c he/she is off duty. They jump in & do what they have to do. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Mar 16 21:35:56 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 15 22:54:25 2019. YOU call yourself a Railfan?YES...The CITY OF NEW YORK owned and OWNS the SUBWAY AND BUS SYSTEM. The NYCT leases the system,serving as the operator. New York City,NYCT and The MTA provide equipment |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Mar 16 23:06:35 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 16 19:19:44 2019. I never knew cops and firemen could ride free. After Dec. 1993 they allowed officers to ride free based on what you said about taking action if necessary. |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Mar 17 01:28:18 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Mar 16 19:19:44 2019. another drop was /may still be a driver comping nuns--something I witnessed on a 14th St crosstown bus in 67.` |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Mar 17 10:46:18 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Mar 16 17:25:02 2019. Sew watt ewe are telling me is dat there is more to this issue than watt meats the eye.Whale the sail of bonds is a good plan, but whom gets the bag to hold. Ifs I owns da bonds, I owns your arse until I git paid off. If well run were the MTA the sale and redemption of bonds would knot be a problem. If wes 'ad no problems then everything wood be running just fine. ROAR |
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Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Mar 17 12:22:49 2019, in response to Re: Should the city take back its buses and subways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Mar 16 18:14:44 2019. Looks like all states get federal mooch money for their roads.Lets see... Paved roads... (not counting city streets) In stark County, aside from the interstate, there is one US highway (US 83); two state highways (ND 8 and 22); and two paved county roads. The rest are unpaved graded roads. How many roads you got in your county. We got 1,332 square miles, how many square miles you got in your county? Sure the feds help with roads, but we don't got that many roads! Doesn't look like we are sucking too much out of the federal pot after all! ROARING |
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