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| Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) (1502131) | |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Feb 8 15:33:26 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Feb 7 18:39:44 2019. So much so that the IND wanted to build the Crosstown subway under Throop and Gates avenue..rather its present course. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 15:43:23 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Edwards! on Fri Feb 8 15:33:26 2019. First time I ever saw any mention of Throop & Gates Ave for any proposed Crosstown line. The current route under Lafayette Ave, had been proposed for an IRT line, going back to the old Tri-Boro and later Dual Contract eras. Franklin Ave or Bedford Ave (tunnelrat's favorite!) had been proposed for the IND. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 15:55:43 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 8 07:25:50 2019. They did almost same thing when they closed the Park Ave section of the Old Main Line, from Hudson to Grand and Grand to Myrtle. Closed for "repairs" on Dec 8th, 1889. Abandoned a year later on Dec 30th, 1890. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Fri Feb 8 16:31:49 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Edwards! on Fri Feb 8 15:33:26 2019. Is that why Nostrand Avenue became an express station? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 18:11:44 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Fri Feb 8 16:31:49 2019. No. The City planners wanted to extend the business/shopping are from Downtown. Their plans included a satellite "downtown' area, centered at Fulton/Nostrand. To that end, the express station there was built.There has been some debate as to whether Nostrand/Fulton was originally planned as it is, or had been first designed as a local stop, modified for express use. Its setup is unique in the IND system. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Feb 8 18:21:59 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 18:11:44 2019. - |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 18:22:04 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Fri Feb 8 05:10:13 2019. Basically, yes. They were designed to run in both directions, either smokestack first, or coal bunker first. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 18:23:33 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Feb 8 18:21:59 2019. Did you wish to say something, O Great Wise Old Sage? |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Fri Feb 8 19:20:44 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 18:11:44 2019. With how wide the express platforms are, I always thought that deciding to make Nostrand Avenue a local station was last minute decision. Franklin Avenue would’ve been the better choice.It also doesn’t help that if the Crosstown Line was to use Throop Avenue, IND has theme of not making express stations where lines split off from each other. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 8 19:35:16 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Fri Feb 8 19:20:44 2019. The only places I can think of where the IND doesn’t have an exp station at the exact junction points are 50/8, Van Wyck/Briarwood and the connection, if ever built, to the Rockaway Line at 63 Dr. All the other junctions are just past express stations. Although of all the proposed IND second system lines, the proposed Bedford Av subway seems to have the least documentation about it. It was to provide for a transfer to the Bedford Av subway that Nostrand was designed the way in was. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 9 00:14:36 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Fri Feb 8 19:35:16 2019. One of the JoeKorner's features that I came across a few months back at the website, were track diagrams redrawn, clear and detailed, for the second system, done by a friend/colleague of his. These were based on the linen quality paper plans that Joe had scanned and made images of for the site (these are still accessible).The drawings covered Brooklyn and some of Queens. IIRC a couple of different versions for tracks east of S.4th st., local tracks going up to Glendale (via Bedford Nostrand on the diagram??), I think, and the Utica ave. subway, again a couple of different versions for this route to connect to the trunk line east of S4. I never copied and and saved them, so what I remember isn't exact. I also seem to recall track layouts for a Bedford Ave Subway (?) as well as the Borden ave. route. I remember 2nd, 6th, and 8th ave routes converging on S4. 8th via Worth St. conn., 6th (and 2nd - don't remember the latter clearly) via Houston & 2nd ave. And they split up east of S4 - the exact details, I don't remember the plans clearly, unfortunately. These re-drawn plans are not at the site anymore (unless someone has come across them) that I could find - maybe they were taken down for some reason? **I also found an archived version of this site at webarchives, which has material in the Subway Information section, that is not at the current site. I thank those who are keeping his site on-line, and again, never met Joe K. but I respect and am grateful to him, for putting together his site, with its wealth of information, for all interested in transit & its history, it's his legacy, and he will remain in peoples' memory. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 08:14:58 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 9 00:14:36 2019. http://www.thejoekorner.com/indsecondsystem/ |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 9 09:39:40 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 08:14:58 2019. Thank you so much, R42ToMoffat! I could swear those page links weren't there when I went to the site seven to ten days ago. I could have missed them, but I don't see how, since the links list is quite short.What I did notice, was that now color was added, for stations, crossings not at grade (diving under or going over), and divisions for chaining points. So maybe he took them down, revised them with the color added and the chaining info. (though maybe the latter was there, first time I went to the pages), and then put them back up. And Tom O'Neill, if you are on Subchat, thanks so much for your efforts, to unravel the 2nd system route info.! |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 10:17:06 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 9 09:39:40 2019. You're welcome. I kept the link bookmarked since when I was younger, I came across it when I started getting into transit history.It scared me that the J/Z line, my favorite line, may not have been around since I read that it would've truncated to Crescent Street and recaptured at 121st Street. One thing that didn't happen that I wish did was triple tracking the line east of Broadway Junction. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 9 13:51:15 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Fri Feb 8 19:20:44 2019. Had the Crosstown line been built under Franklin Ave, it would have been an express stop. In the late 1920's there were a lot of visions to make Fulton Street, minus the el, into a long shopping/business avenue. The proponents of running the Crosstown line under Lafayette Ave won out. Their argument was that the best way to enlarge the Downtown area was to expand it, immediately north-west of Fulton St, along Lafayette. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 13:58:59 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 9 13:51:15 2019.  Are you referring to this? Found this on Vanshnookraggen's site. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 9 15:49:36 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 13:58:59 2019. If the Crosstown had been run down Franklin Ave from Lafayette, the tunnel west of it would not be needed. Also, that 6 track station at Hoyt-Schermerhorn would have been a 4 track express stop, instead of 6. |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Sat Feb 9 17:16:20 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 10:17:06 2019. They had plenty of steel to complete it. (121-168th Street) |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Feb 9 21:25:46 2019, in response to Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 2 18:38:14 2019. It was a two track island platform station, like all the stations on that line and Myrtle lines were before the rebuild in the 1910s. I would assume they looked something like the Myrtle line stations south of Broadway. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 22:14:54 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Feb 9 21:25:46 2019. I can’t find pictures of that either... |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sat Feb 9 22:39:53 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Feb 9 21:25:46 2019. That's almost exactly what my answer was to his question last week about the Park Avenue station on the Broadway line. The upside of the lack of love for the Myrtle line past Bway is the stations looked more or less the same as when built up to the end.Lex train on the Myrtle at Bridge-Jay St. 1920s?  Q car at Washington Avenue. 1969. 
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 10 00:13:53 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sat Feb 9 22:39:53 2019. nice pix. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 10 10:47:47 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sat Feb 9 22:39:53 2019. Imagine what more Metrotech could be if the Myrtle had survived.The Myrtle bus today is not even an SBS candidate. Goes to show the lack of economic activity produced by buses. Keep that in mind for BQC. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:22:44 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sat Feb 9 22:39:53 2019. That photo of the Lexington train at was probably taken after June 1st, 1940. Lexington trains did not run to Grant Ave, until after the Fulton St el closed on that date. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:39:05 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 10:17:06 2019. The MTA had plans to triple track the Jamaica Ave part of the line, and elevate a center track above the structure, between Alabama Ave and Crescent St. In 1966-67, they even had a derrick mounted on the never-finished ramp, just west of Alabama Ave. I saw that for myself, as I was living near the end of the Interboro Pkwy, as it was known at the time. It just sat there, unused, until one day, it was removed. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:41:21 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 9 22:14:54 2019. Ya think someone would have some station pics of Brooklyn's first elevated! |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 10 14:13:43 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:39:05 2019. I think Archer Avenue sucked up any investment money they ever would have put into the Jamaica el. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 15:14:15 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:22:44 2019. Good point. The Fulton/Lex service was started so that people from downtown Bkln could get a one seat ride without having to change at Rockaway Av from the A to the el. Even if anyone wanted stations beyond Grant they would only have to cross the platform instead of dealing with stairs. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 15:15:06 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Feb 9 21:25:46 2019. You mean stations railroad NORTH, NORTH, NORTH of Broadway!!!!! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 15:47:18 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 15:14:15 2019. I believe that the Fulton-Lex was a mid-day service to/from Grant Ave. The Multis ran on the 14 St-Fulton, during the rush hours, with the Lex going to 111 St on the jamaica line. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Sun Feb 10 16:55:05 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:39:05 2019.  Whenever I see this, I imagine how fun it could've been if the express track of the Jamaica Line would've made every station look like 111th Street on the Flushing Line.  But then I somewhat disappoint myself by reading this: http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2023/Forest%20Parkway%20NY%20Leader%20Observer/Forest%20Parkway%20NY%20Leader%20Observer%201958-1960/Forest%20Parkway%20NY%20Leader%20Observer%201958-1960%20-%200313.pdf#page=1 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 17:47:49 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 15:47:18 2019. Actually, the Fulton/Lex was also a rush hour only service. It would have provided excellent photo opportunities for railfans wit 3 types of equipment running on Fulton, C types, BUs and Multis and if you photoed at Atlantic you could add a few steels into the mix as well. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Feb 10 18:18:57 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:22:44 2019. Come to think of it this is probably 1948-1950. IIRC the Lex-Fulton had been cut back to Grant (from Lefferts) in 1948, and the Lex shut down in 1950. What confused me was the woman seen through the window. On my phone it looked like a 1920-ish hairstyle. |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Feb 10 18:24:27 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 8 07:30:33 2019. nice! |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 01:21:24 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Feb 10 18:18:57 2019. If you notice in the photo, the route “request” punch which basically only lined up the automatic tower for whichever train was ready is on the M/Ms side on M1 tk. Sometime before I started in 1966, the route request box was moved to the platform side. Most likely it was done in the 1950s when the Qs replaced the BUs. For some reason, when both pockets were empty, the automatic interlocking lined trains up straight iron into M2 tk and only lined them into M1 when M2 was occupied. I would have though that it made more sense to have the arriving trains cross over and leave straight iron, but for whatever reason it wasn’t done that way. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 12:44:41 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 17:47:49 2019. There is a photo I bought at a NY Div meeting - Bluebirds on the Canarsie (?) platform at Atlantic Ave.In the background were AB's, C-types, and off to the far left, a BU gate car. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 11 13:12:22 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 17:47:49 2019. You are saying that "C" cars from Rockaway Ave, Multis from 14 St, AND gate cars from Lexington Ave all shared the elevated over Pitkin? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 11 13:22:34 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sun Feb 10 16:55:05 2019. I guess the station canopies from Alabama to Crescent would have been under that overhead express track. Would have been an interesting design! |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 13:29:21 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 11 13:12:22 2019. In my photo, picture of the outbound Bluebird, on the westernmost outbound track at Atlantic Ave, was taken standing on that platform. B'way-Junction was in the background.IIRC, the AB, was on the Jamaica Line, a C-type I think was in there somewhere, and in the top far right, you could just make out an outbound Lex BU on the Jamaica line. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 13:57:36 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Sun Feb 10 15:15:06 2019. OK, let me try as a non RR employee person, once again, to see if I undstand this corectly, and can get it and locked into (or straight ironed, heh!) into my memory :)and finally take copy and save the info. into a Word doc. in NYC, RR north is city-bound RR south is outbound from the city? if so, this would mean, trains that are Pelham, Wht.Plains Rd., 179th St., New Lots, E. 105th St., and Stillwell Ave. bound are traveling RR south? Thanks. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Feb 11 14:11:16 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 8 15:55:43 2019. Plus la change... |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Feb 11 14:20:48 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 10 13:39:05 2019. And by 1968, the plans were made to demolish the east end of the line. IN the mid 1980s, they even flirted with demolishing everything east of Crescent Street. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 14:50:33 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by MainR3664 on Mon Feb 11 14:20:48 2019. Reminds me of the unfortunate decision made in Chicago, to demolish part of the "L" structure, down along the Cottage street area. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:08:02 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 12:44:41 2019. Nice. The Bluebird did see occasional service on the 14 St Line, but I never heard of it in 14/Fulton service which it could have operated on. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:10:21 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 11 13:12:22 2019. Yes. If the timing was right you might have even been able to catch the Green Hornet although it may have been either on the Fkln Shuttle or even completely out of service by the time Fulton/Lex started. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:12:00 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 11 13:22:34 2019. Depending on the cost difference, it may have been possible to make all the stations on that structure outside platforms and place the exp tk on the same level as the outside tks. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:32:13 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 13:57:36 2019. Until Chrystie, the rule was than any train passing through Bkln enroute to Manhattan regardless of its point of origin was northbound. The track numbers even bear this out since under the BMT/IND tk numbering system, even number tks are northbound and odd numbered tks are southbound. At the physical south but RR north end of Chambers St the track numbers change since the Nassau St portion of the line is considered to be Southern Div rather than Eastern so J2 tk becomes R1 Tk. The towerman at Broad St listed all trains on the train interval sheets passing the interlocking as northbound from Chambers and southbound to Chamber and that included the Culver and West End trains which were actually southbound going towards the Montague St tube. This really presented little difficulty until the Jamaica Line was through routed with the Brighton Lcls into the Southern Div as the QJ. To eliminate confusion, the TA specified that QJs operating towards Stillwell would be designated southbound and Qjs going towards Jamaica would be designated northbound. KKs and Ms along Bway Bkln going in the same physical direction, however remained northbound towards Manhattan and southbound lvg Manhattan so the confusion was just moved from one location to another. In 1972, when the M was extended to the Brighton Line and the former QJ renamed the J truncated at Broad St, the M was redesignated S/B to Stillwell and N/B to Met, but the J remained the same as before. Now along Bway Bkln, there were 2 S/B services, the J and M, and 1 N/B service, the K operating in the same physical direction but with opposite directional designations. Now the M is operating along 6 Av towards Continental and is back to being properly designated northbound lvg Met and southbound towards met, but the TA has not seen fit to redesignate the J back to its proper designation of northbound lvg Jamaica and southbound towards Jamaica even though it no longer operates in the Southern Division. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:34:23 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 14:50:33 2019. I believe that had more to do with the deterioration of the entire 62 St viaduct over the commuter RRs east of Michigan Av than anything directly due to poor transit planning. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 16:37:20 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sat Feb 9 22:39:53 2019. I was on the second photo's fan trip. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Mon Feb 11 16:42:22 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:32:13 2019. So it’s just coincidental that the J uses tracks labeled J and runs down the Jamaica Line? |
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