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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 4 23:50:29 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 4 20:19:54 2019. I guess nobody at the B of T had the intestinal fortitude to tell the local politicos that the reason for the el was the high water table in the Marine Park/Mill Basin area which would have mede a subway either prohibitively expensive or outright impossible. That was supposedly why the Pitkin Av subway was not extended past (dare I mention it)76 St. The Ozone Park area through which the subway was supposed to go has part of the same high water table that affects the Marine Pk area so water seepage problems were encountered precluding further construction. These days, the state of the art may have advanced to the point that should a Utica Av subway be built it can probably be entirely underground. Of course if the B of T had a character like Robert Moses who would have done for subways what Moses did for highways, the line would have been built in its entirety. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 4 23:54:50 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 4 23:50:29 2019. That is false. South Ferry (both the original and replacement) are built inside landfill where there was once water. Rector and Cortlandt on the 1 are along the old Manhattan shoreline.Doesn't mean it wouldn't be expensive. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 5 00:00:38 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Union Tpke on Mon Feb 4 20:22:19 2019. That was what the 1948 plans called for. By 1950, however, a B of T report I have shows the proposed connection to the LIRR ROW at what is now Liberty Jct. Apparently whatever caused construction to be suspended past the partial shell at 76 St (for those who believe) was discovered between the opening of Euclid in 1948 and the publication of the 1950 report. That report, by the way also shows the IND connection off the Qns Blvd Line 1t 63 Dr coexisting with Liberty Jct although how that would have been accomplished I don’t know. As the map shows, there would have been no problem with both connections coexisting with a Pitkin Av subway, but the way Liberty Jct was built it probably would have had to be at grade which is unusual for the IND. Regardless of which plan would have been pursued, the connection between the IND and the Fulton St el would have been built anyway. It was not an either/or but rather a both/and. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 5 00:00:50 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Union Tpke on Mon Feb 4 20:22:19 2019. That was what the 1948 plans called for. By 1950, however, a B of T report I have shows the proposed connection to the LIRR ROW at what is now Liberty Jct. Apparently whatever caused construction to be suspended past the partial shell at 76 St (for those who believe) was discovered between the opening of Euclid in 1948 and the publication of the 1950 report. That report, by the way also shows the IND connection off the Qns Blvd Line 1t 63 Dr coexisting with Liberty Jct although how that would have been accomplished I don’t know. As the map shows, there would have been no problem with both connections coexisting with a Pitkin Av subway, but the way Liberty Jct was built it probably would have had to be at grade which is unusual for the IND. Regardless of which plan would have been pursued, the connection between the IND and the Fulton St el would have been built anyway. It was not an either/or but rather a both/and. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Tue Feb 5 05:17:54 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 4 22:29:37 2019. You are welcome. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Tue Feb 5 06:20:31 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 4 23:50:29 2019. Wasn’t the whole “water table” thing also the reason for the New Lots Line being elevated? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 5 17:09:48 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 4 23:54:50 2019. I would NOT want to be in any planned "waterproof" subway station at Utica Ave & Ave U, during any heavy rainstorm., or hurricane! |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Feb 5 19:17:37 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 4 23:40:44 2019. I've found some photos online of the underside of the el structures at the intersection and yep there's beams going straight across Myrtle from Grand to the other side. So perhaps for a very short time trains continued straight across like at Navy St. The beams also supported the switch tower. I'll have to see the photos taken from 215 Willoughby when the structure was being dismantled and you could see the bare structure remnants. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Feb 5 19:24:46 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Mon Feb 4 11:01:35 2019. Half of the Crosstown #15 line was replaced by the B61. Before the recent split at Tillary St. making the B62 and B61 into separate lines, the B61 used to go from Queens to the old trolley terminal loop in Red Hook on Richardson St. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Feb 5 23:27:48 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Mon Feb 4 14:24:46 2019. I think the map should say "Service on Park Ave east of Hudson Ave discontinued in 1891." |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 5 23:37:33 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Feb 5 19:17:37 2019. I've posted this before as well, David Rogoff's article, abandoned/ disused stations structures of the BMT in an old NY Div Bulletin, makes reference to these "understructure" trackway support beams, calling the curved beams quadrants - they were at Park & Myrtle, and Hudson & Myrtle.You could see them underneath as part of the structure from the street, which I did, when the el closed in Oct. 69. Excerpt from an old Henry Raudenbusch subchat post that I've pasted in below about the old main line also explains this. (I pasted the orig. post into a Word doc, and unfortunately didn't include ID, year, month and day when I saved it) HR's excerpt: "When the Myrtle Ave line was built, it crossed the original line both on Grand Ave and on Hudson Ave. To avoid crossing, connecting curves were built in the northeast and southwest quadrants at both places, with the Myrtle tracks continuing through." :... David Rogoff referred to these crossings as "quadrants" in his article. I didn't completely understand what he meant until I saw this section of the Myrtle el's underside myself." ------------------------------------------------------ Apparently, from the above post, the Myrtle tracks crossed at grade these curving tracks after they were built. But from your post Jan, you also saw the picture of the beams from the Grand St. structure going right straight across the Myrtle - So, 1) were the Grand St. tracks across the Myrtle to the Lex's. Grand St. station removed at some point, after the Myrtle with its thru tracks had been built,or, 2) did both Lex & Myrtle's thru tracks cross at grade? 3) were either, both, or neither of these thru track grade crossings at Myrt. & Lex left in place after the curving tracks to and from the Park Ave el & to and from the Lex at Grand st. were installed? Dates for any of these situations that existed or were changed would be helpful if possible. ------------------------------------------------------- re: one or two platforms at the Lex's. Grand St. station: excerpt from an article in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, dated May 13, 1885: (quotes about the platforms are at the end) The Brooklyn Daily Eagle Wednesday May 13, 1885 page one "DONE AT LAST" Brookly Elevated Road Ready for the Public / ITS RECORD FOR ELEVEN YEARS The stations now built on the line of the first section are located as follows: York and Washington streets York and Bridge streets Park Avenue and navy Street Park Avenue and Cumberland street Park Avenue and Washington Grand and Myrtle avenues Grand and Dekalb Avenues Grand and Greene Avenues Lexington and Franklin Avenues and continues listing the final four stations along Lexington Ave: Nostrand, Tompkins, Sumner, & Reid Avenues; and B'way & Gates ave. "The stations along Park avenue are between the tracks, with a common entrance for up and down trains. All others are at the sides." So this would mean that the station at Lex. and Grand St. did have two platforms when the line opened (since the Myrtle Ave el did not open for another couple of years [Adams->Grand April 1888; Grand-> Myrtle-B'way April 1889] And the drawing from Tracks of New York, above Brooklyn, also has an inbound platform drawn in as a dotted line, to show that it was abandoned. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 00:20:07 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 4 20:54:25 2019. I found an old post of yours from a couple of years back about the old main line, that I'd copied & saved into a WORD doc. Found the info. in it where you answered my question above... Thanks.I thought that's probably the route of the shuttle, I just wasn't sure (and I didn't remember your post from a couple of years back) |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) Correction |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 00:35:16 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 4 15:35:46 2019. Elkeeper - I posted this above under my post in this thread, so I'm reposting it as a response to your original.I found an old post of yours from a couple of years back about the old main line, that I'd copied & saved into a WORD doc. Found the info. in it where you answered my question above re: shuttle via Hudson avenue. ... Thanks. I thought shuttle probably went to the Ferry, I just wasn't sure (and I didn't remember your post from a couple of years back) |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 05:36:20 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) Correction, posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 00:35:16 2019. Are there any documents on Park Avenue’s appearance? Not counting Park Street, which is a one-way street north of Broadway which starts at Beaver Street, Park Avenue is a regular two-way street.West of Emerson Place, the lanes separate to allow the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway to run through to Navy Street and at that point, Park Avenue becomes Tillary Street. My thoughts are that since Grand Avenue is two streets down from Emerson Place and the line went up Hudson Avenue to York Street, Park Avenue may/may not have been built similar to the one in Manhattan, where the two lanes are separated and have a railroad in between them. *I might be wrong on this* |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 6 06:51:07 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Q4 on Mon Feb 4 14:25:01 2019. Same here. I'd love to be able to see all of them. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 6 06:58:52 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 4 23:54:50 2019. I suppose that a construction method similar or the same as the World Trade Center "bathtub" could be used. But as you said, it would be very expensive to build a few miles of tunnel in that fashion. And in the post-WW2 era, that kind of vision just doesn't exist, transit-wise, in NYC. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Feb 6 13:02:54 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 05:36:20 2019. Park Avenue in the Old Main Line days was same width as Myrtle. The split in prep for the BQE was made by demolishing homes and businesses on the south side of the street approx. 100 feet stretching from Ashland to Emerson. This was done just before WWII, but the elevated BQE wasn't completed until the 50's. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 13:15:01 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 05:36:20 2019. From what I've seen on a couple of old Brooklyn street maps of the downtown area, Park avenue was a street of regular (two lanes) width, not extra wide, no separation of lanes by any kind of median.Someone within the last year I think, posted two photos of the Park Ave. elevated. I don't remember if one or both were taken on either Park Ave. or Grand Ave. In the photos with the elevated structure on Park Ave, the street looked like it would have been the average width of say Mrytle, or Lex aves. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 13:28:29 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 13:15:01 2019. Wow! It sounds like Robert Moses was really desperate! |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 6 13:39:15 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 13:28:29 2019. Why? |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 14:58:57 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 6 13:39:15 2019. I meant ambitious, sorry |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 6 15:48:13 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Feb 6 13:02:54 2019. That sounds like what was done on 3 Ave for the widening of the Gowanus expwy in prep for the connection the the V/N Br. The buildings on the east side of 3rd were demolished to widen the avenue. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 6 15:49:49 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 6 06:58:52 2019. Not only that but those plans were made long before WWII. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 6 16:05:17 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Sun Feb 3 11:46:05 2019. And there is virtually no trace that it was ever there. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 17:55:38 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 13:15:01 2019. The Lexington Ave section of the Old Main Line was supposed to have run over Gates Ave, instead. Other than that, the Brooklyn City officials chose this unusual routing to serve its residents only. They did not want the Brooklyn Elevated RR to be serving Long Island Railroad customers, also. The original route, from Van Sicklen Ave toFulton Ferry (under the Brooklyn Bridge) did not intersect any LIRR stations on purpose. By the time the Broadway (B'klyn) and Kings County Elevated routes were opened in 1888, some 4 years later, attitudes towards the LIRR had changed. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 18:06:47 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Wed Feb 6 15:49:49 2019. 1938, if I recall an article from the Brooklyn Eagle posted here. Work on the IND extension to Euclid Ave would begin, while the engineers figured out how to build through that high water table. Then, WWII came and not only delayed the Euclid extension, but Unification offered a more economical connection at Liberty Junction. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 18:10:46 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 5 23:37:33 2019. Thank you! |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 23:55:51 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 17:55:38 2019. Was any reason ever given, why they changed the route from Gates to Lexington? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 00:05:18 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 18:06:47 2019. I just looked up the thread with those articles, in the last couple of days. If you just type in "Euclid" in the simple search (IIRC - as always), the thread with the posts and articles should come up. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 00:14:37 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 18:10:46 2019. You're welcome. The Brooklyn Eagle article's cite, 5-13-1885 was listed in the footnotes of the Wiki article on the Lexington Avenue El. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 00:25:58 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 6 16:05:17 2019. Sad, but things change over the years and decades. |
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Re: Digital Collections (Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn)) |
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Posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 7 06:50:22 2019, in response to Re: Digital Collections (Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn)), posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 3 17:49:31 2019. try looking through the brooklyn daily eagle archives. all digitalized and ocr'd. amazing finds.also, with pertinent search terms, for free google books can get some seriously good results. electric railway journals and such. |
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Posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 7 07:32:09 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Mon Feb 4 14:24:46 2019. excellent! |
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Posted by Mr. NIGHT TRAIN SHOW on Thu Feb 7 11:27:41 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 00:14:37 2019. GG |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 12:23:31 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 5 23:37:33 2019. Rather than realign the intertwined stairways for Myrtle & Lex platforms, the Board of Transportation ripped all of them out and closed the Grand Ave station on the Myrtle Ave el in January, 1953. This was before the Transit Authority took over in March, 1953. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 12:36:33 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 4 20:54:25 2019. The single car and locomotive shuttle, nicknamed "The Buffalo Train", ran to the ferry from Hudson/Navy until April 10th, 1904. The BRT wanted it closed and managed to get the City to inspect it find a few minor faults. on the 'strength' of this, it was closed on that date. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 14:13:34 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 6 23:55:51 2019. None that I ever found. Unlike Gates Ave, Lexington Ave never had a surface horsecar or streetcar on it. Perhaps that was one of the reasons that they built the el with the support columns directly beneath the tracks. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 7 15:56:37 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 6 18:06:47 2019. As I have mentioned over and over and over and over again, the connection to the Fulton St el was to have been done in any case even without unification. A contract book I saw at the ERA Sprague Library of the connection to the Fulton St el originally specified that past the 80/Hudson St interlocking, existing BMT signaling was to be used. The connection to the Rockaway Line was to have been from an extended Pitkin Av subway in the vicinity of Aqueduct. This was still the plan as of 1948 and the photo of Euclid tower showing both 76 St and Grant Av station bears this out. By the 1950 B of T report, plans for extension of the Pitkin Av subway past Euclid (or 76 St for those who believe) had been shelved and the plans now included the connection S/O Rockaway Blvd now known as Liberty Jct. From available information, the subway infrastructure S/O Rockaway Av including Pitkin Yd had been built by the time WWII started but with the war stopping all construction, a completed infrastructure minus station finishes, track and signals lay unused util after the war when construction resumed. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 7 16:23:48 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 12:23:31 2019. THat’s interesting since both the B of T and the TA, kept a portion of the Franklin Av station of the Fulton St el for access the Fkln Shuttle even after the rest of the Fulton el was torn down. |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Feb 7 18:38:11 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 6 16:05:17 2019. The pillar locations that used to be visible in the Grand Ave. pavement on Pratt campus are gone. The manholes for the power distribution on the sidewalk across from the Pratt engine room I think are still there. The sidewalk next to Pratt Studios that still held the cut off bolts holding the stairs to DeKalb station when I went there in the 80's are gone, and of course the remaining structure that was left in the corner building on Grand and Lex are gone now. The wooden two story building on Myrtle that had the cut off 2nd floor corner where the Old Main structure turned into Grand finally fell down. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Feb 7 18:39:44 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 14:13:34 2019. Gates had better quality housing on it already than Lexington did, I think there was a horsecar line on it by the 1880's. |
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Re: Digital Collections (Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn)) |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Feb 7 18:43:27 2019, in response to Re: Digital Collections (Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn)), posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 7 06:50:22 2019. it is really fascinating being able to find these ancient publications online now. Very useful.Just doing a word search and these newly scanned publications is how I found out there were active lawsuits regarding the Manhattan Bridge 3 Cent Line's (closed in 1929) financial shenanigans going all the way into the late 60's. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 7 19:07:15 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 6 14:58:57 2019. Why? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 19:50:16 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 14:13:34 2019. Thanks. Lexington Aves. support pillars were the designed one alternating with the next on opposite sides of the street IIRC correct? In photos of them, I always thought the design looked a bit peculiar, however, those alternating pillars managed to support the structure for 65 years. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 20:07:05 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 12:36:33 2019. Thanks for these details. "Buffalo Train" - great name! |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 21:13:36 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 19:50:16 2019. And beneath those pillars were granite bases, many of whom are still under the street. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 21:30:46 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 7 20:07:05 2019. Apparently, it was a nickname for a small trainset at the turn of the century. By 1904, all of the Manhattan Elevated and most of the BRT had been electrified. Energizing the third rail on that spur would have taken away needed current for Brooklyn Bridge trains and streetcars. At that time, they were using only 550 volts, not the later 600V. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Feb 8 05:10:13 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 21:30:46 2019. Were the BRT's locomotive's the same kind of Forney's as the Manhattan els'? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 8 07:25:50 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Feb 7 12:36:33 2019. Interesting how an "objective" inspection or study can always be found to justify a rail abandonment. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 8 07:30:33 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Wed Feb 6 15:48:13 2019. Yes- and that demo work remains clearly visible- every building built before 1957 or so on the east side of 3rd Ave looks sheared off- and you see an altered side wall. Only stuff built later actually fronts the east side of 3rd Ave.Among the properties demolished at that time was the no-tell hotel operated by my grandfather!! |
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