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| Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) (1502131) | |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 17:06:09 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:32:13 2019. Now the M is operating along 6 Av towards Continental and is back to being properly designated northbound lvg Met and southbound towards met, but the TA has not seen fit to redesignate the J back to its proper designation of northbound lvg Jamaica and southbound towards Jamaica even though it no longer operates in the Southern Division.This is a big problem for the GTFS computer schedules and those who use them. Trip records have an optional direction field. It's used for all NYCT static files. It's also part of the GTFS-RT spec for trip updates. To make matters worse, they adopted a station id that incorporates the trip direction. They decided that station id direction flags should agree with the trip id direction field. So, M and J/Z trips stop at stations with different id's that are really identical platforms and tracks. This quirk makes it slightly more difficult to spot merging conflicts that are built into the schedules. The J/Z and M merge at Marcy has its fair share. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 17:36:59 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Mon Feb 11 16:42:22 2019. Not really. Prior to the introduction of the R-27 cars, the BMT used route numbers for their routes. With the impending merger of the BMT with the IND Division, the TA decided to assign letters to the bMT lines directly continuing the IND letters. The TA opted to use J and jJ for the Jamaica Line, M for the Myrtle/Chambers Line and KK for the Bway Bkln Lcl although all 3 route signs described them as “Nassau Street” routes being sort of Manhattan centric. Although it wasn’t what was initially intended, M was used for the both the Brighton and 4 Av Nassau St “Bankers’ Specials” that operated till 1967 when Chrystie was implemented. Since it was now planned for the Bway Bkln Lcl to eventually operate via 6 Ave, that route was assigned KK and the temporary Bway Bkln Lcls to Canal St used the designation JJ. It just happened that both the J and the M ran over tracks that used those letter designations. there was actually precedent for the with the IND since the A trains use tracks designated “A”, the original C and CC used tracks designated as “C” along the Concourse and the BB and B service use the “B” tracks along 6 Ave. After that there was really no way to perfectly match the train routes with the track designations but it worked for the ones that did match. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 17:41:29 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 17:06:09 2019. At least on the Bway Bkln Line that can be rectified by designated all Manhattan bound trains as northbound and all away from Manhattan trains a southbound like it used to be. There was a time when the NYC and the NH shared trackage between GCT and Woodlawn and NYC trains lvg GCT were westbound and NH trains lvg GCT were eastbound. I believe with both Amtrak and M/N it has now been changed and everything lvg GCT is northbound. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 19:01:55 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 17:41:29 2019. At least on the Bway Bkln Line that can be rectifiedNot really. Changing the station id's means that all applications using the old station id's will no longer be valid. There's one adage, "if you cannot be good - be consistent." I've placed all the NYCT GTFS schedules into a single database. These schedules date back to October 2013. I've developed a set of queries that can references different schedules by date. The rest of the queries don't change. The J/Z direction flip is accounted for in these queries. If they decide to rationalize the J/Z direction, the queries will have to be changed with a date switch added to distinguish between old and new directions. At least I don't use the LIRR GTFS schedules. The MTA notified developers on Feb 8th, that they would be changing all the LIRR station id's as of noon today. If you get some weird routings on a developer's LIRR app, you will know why. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 11 19:59:46 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 19:01:55 2019. How complicated would that be to do? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 23:11:59 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:08:02 2019. My Dad rode the Bluebirds on the 14th line once during the late 1940s. He and my Mom, lived on 12th St. They'd been married a couple of years. He would take the 14th st. to 8th ave. then the IND to 168 when he was interning at Columbia Dental School.He remembered riding the Bluebirds once - this fancy train he told me with mirrors in it and bells. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 23:28:21 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:34:23 2019. Was it found that the 62 st. viaduct was prohibitivly expensive to rehab/rebuild? And in addition was the ridership on the end of the branch to Cottage St. at a low level as well? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 00:18:35 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 19:01:55 2019. The problem is that officially the M is now designated northbound away from Met so how do you reconcile that? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 00:19:14 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 11 19:59:46 2019. Probably not too complicated for a COMPETENT programmer! |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 00:33:55 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 23:11:59 2019. I may have even seen the Bluebird and possibly the Zephyr laid up in Fresh Pond Yd the first time I rode Myrtle in early 19056, but not being too railfan savvy at the time I probably didn’t know what it was I was looking at. I had ridden the Multis on the 14 St line many times to get cross town from 14/8 to Union Sq but I don’t think I ever rode or even saw the Bluebird there because I’m sure even at the young age I was at the time I would have noticed the difference between it and the olive drab interiors of the Multis. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 00:34:36 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Mon Feb 11 23:28:21 2019. Not sure. Maybe some native Chicago people can answer that. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 03:02:27 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 00:33:55 2019. The first color photos (slides? I think) of the Bluebirds I saw were taken by Russ Jackson, who showed them at a NY Div meeting.And there are about two dozen color photos at nycsubway.org |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 03:14:40 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Feb 11 16:37:20 2019. Nice. I was on the ERA fantrip, the day or so after it ceased operation. Memories.I missed the gate cars & C-types, Multis and the AB's when were in southern division service - was too young for the first two (back then I was still only looking out the front window of the E or F - mid to late 50s), if Multis were in Broadway service to Astoria at all until the end of 1957, I may have ridden them out of Queens Plaza, going into work with my Dad. I finally became railfan conscious during the mid 60s, so at least I rode the ABs in Canarsie & Myrtle-Chambers service. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 04:56:15 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 11 19:59:46 2019. How complicated would that be to do?I might be able to answer that question, if you were a bit more specific. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 05:01:15 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 03:14:40 2019. if Multis were in Broadway service to Astoria at all until the end of 1957,The Multis were pensioned out to the Myrtle-Chambers Line, after the demise of the 14th St-Fulton St Line. I rode them there. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 06:15:29 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 05:01:15 2019. Thanks for the info. Then the only pre-war cars I would have ridden out of Queens Plaza back then were either Standards or Triplexes. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 06:49:32 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 06:15:29 2019. Then the only pre-war cars I would have ridden out of Queens Plaza back then were either Standards or Triplexes.Or an R1. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 12 10:21:25 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:34:23 2019. FALSE!There were community organizations who claimed 63rd Street was “blighted” by the el and wanted it torn down. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 12 12:08:41 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 05:01:15 2019. I remember the Multis there, too. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 12 12:13:50 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Mon Feb 11 16:12:00 2019. Fulton St, between Alabama and Crescent is a narrow street. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 12 13:21:08 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 12 12:13:50 2019. do remember the "greasy spoon"at fulton-n- rockaway blvd? only had counter space,no booths. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 12 13:27:32 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 12 13:21:08 2019. There’s no such intersection. Fulton changes into 91st Avenue at the border, and Rockaway Blvd is entirely in Queens, ending exactly at the border. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 18:41:19 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 03:02:27 2019. There are quite a few of Russ Jackson's photos of the Bluebird in Jim Greller’s book about the BMT subway equipment. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 18:49:14 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 06:49:32 2019. Evan an R-9. If I recall there was a brief period in the 1950s when the higher numbered R-9s were sent to the 4 Av Lcl. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 18:50:25 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 05:01:15 2019. There was a week in 1958 when the Multis were sent to the Franklin Shuttle but for some reason they didn’t last there too long. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Feb 12 19:02:09 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 03:02:27 2019. Got to know Russ when I started working on the second restoration of B&QT 1001 at BERA. Will need to tap his knowledge again for B&QT 1000 up at Kingston. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 19:02:13 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 12 10:21:25 2019. I wasn’t aware of that but thanks for the info. I was just thinking, however, that if community groups in the area wanted part of the el torn down, why was any part of it left up? I doubt that the ridership warrants any retention of the remaining stations. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 19:05:39 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 12 12:13:50 2019. True, but one of the stations along that structure, I believe Van Siclen, was at one time an outside platform station so it shouldn’t be that much of a problem. |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Tue Feb 12 21:37:37 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 12 12:13:50 2019. Doesn’t it somewhat widen after Arlington Avenue? Fulton Street becomes two-way and the platform at Norwood Avenue becomes wider when the two streets merge.Crescent Street is just as wide as the eastern end of the Norwood Avenue platform and west of the station, there’s space for a third track that I think was from the Chestnut Street Incline. 
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 22:42:22 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 18:41:19 2019. Yes, that's right. I do have the book, though it's in storage right now. To see his color slides of the Bluebirds on the large screen at that meeting was pretty amazing. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 22:44:45 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Feb 12 06:49:32 2019. Yeah, quite possible. I really wasn't aware at that time of car differences when we got on at Queens Plaza, I was 6 going on 7, and was knee deep in the rush hour crowds. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 13 02:21:17 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 12 22:42:22 2019. If you notice one of the photos of the Bluebird i that book show unit 8000 with an H type drawhead on it. What is strange about it is that any documentation I have seen mentions that 8000 never had a regular drawhead installed, so does anyone know what the discrepancy is? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 13 11:17:01 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Wed Feb 13 02:21:17 2019. This just occurred to me, Don Harold might know? or he might know someone who does?How is he these days, is Don still around? Hope so. He has been pretty much living at home all the time for a number of years, so calling him is the best way to get in touch with him. Didn't someone just post that Russ Jackson is still active? Contacting him maybe? Just thought of this as well, the T/O who operated the Arnines this holiday season, and his former motor instructor, both with the TA for years, were both on the trip I was on. If you know them, same thing, one or other might know, or probably knows someone who has that info. The motor instructor told me he remembers Hi-V's, so he's been around quite awhile. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 13 11:26:51 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 12 13:27:32 2019. CONGRADULATIONS,YOU MAY NOW GO TO THE HEAD OF THE CLASS.NOW THEN,DID ANYONE EAT THERE? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Wed Feb 13 14:42:20 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 12 13:27:32 2019. Correct. Elderts Lane is the City Line. My side of the block was Woodhaven, across the street was ENY. Ridgewood Avenue turns into Rockaway Boulevard at Elderts Lane. The Greasy Spoon was at the intersection of 91st Avenue, 75th Steet, and Rockaway Boulevard. Tri-Corner was diagonal across the street on Rockaway Boulevard. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 13 16:45:45 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 13 11:26:51 2019. Was that the closest diner to 76th Street? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 13 16:55:51 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Tue Feb 12 21:37:37 2019. I don't think it would have been wide enough for 3 tracks and 2 side local platforms for all of the stations from Alabama to Crescent. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 13 17:00:14 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Tue Feb 12 19:05:39 2019. Maybe there was room to buld it like that. Alabama Ave had a center island platform. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 13 17:52:32 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Tue Feb 12 21:37:37 2019. I assume that photo was taken after QJ service ceased, or else on a weekend when there was still a QJ on weekdays ? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 13 18:08:39 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 13 17:52:32 2019. The picture is from August 1st, 1972.From what I found, the QJ became the J on January 2nd, 1973. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Feb 14 11:47:22 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 13 16:45:45 2019. OF COURSE. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 14 16:20:39 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Wed Feb 13 18:08:39 2019. That was probably just an R-32 that hadn’t received the new signs yet. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 14 17:39:48 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by randyo on Thu Feb 14 16:20:39 2019. When R32's ran in QJ service, they blanked the route sign. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Thu Feb 14 18:07:01 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 14 17:39:48 2019. Was there any reason why? |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 14 18:56:38 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Thu Feb 14 18:07:01 2019. There was no QJ on the route sign. There was Q, QB, QT, J, JJ. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by R42ToMoffat on Thu Feb 14 20:02:41 2019, in response to Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Sat Feb 2 18:38:14 2019. I went back to check the same map that started this whole thread & noticed that there was a station at Evergreen Avenue on the Myrtle Avenue Line.I’m guessing this was eliminated for the same reason as Park Avenue, but I’m not sure. In my search to find pictures of any of them though, I found this on when the Myrtle Avenue Viaduct wasn’t built. 
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Feb 14 20:04:57 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Thu Feb 14 20:02:41 2019. I know that area well. Its hard to believe that it ever looked so pastoral. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 14 20:34:10 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by R42ToMoffat on Thu Feb 14 20:02:41 2019. See...the Myrtle ave stop was further east approximately located at where the connection is today.This is why the Myrtle station relocated to the west behind eliminating both Park and Evergreen |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 14 20:44:42 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 14 17:39:48 2019. Nope.Plenty of times I rode 32s on the QJ...each time it either had the newest roll signs (white letters on black field background) in the destination box...or the old signs using J Markers. MOST R16/32/38s had the post Chrystie st signs to reflect the new routes and the R40/42 style of train identification. |
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Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 15 00:10:04 2019, in response to Re: Park Avenue (Brooklyn), posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Feb 14 20:04:57 2019. That little park is greener now. But the surroundings are way more crowded. |
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