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| Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. (1486602) | |
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| (1486621) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Sep 13 09:54:29 2018, in response to Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Chicago44 on Thu Sep 13 05:15:11 2018. I predict that a fair number of Gs will only run from Bedford-Nostrand northward. Full-length Gs should provide sufficient additional capacity south of there. |
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| (1486624) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 10:01:11 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by AlM on Thu Sep 13 09:54:29 2018. Does full length mean 480's or 600' ? |
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| (1486628) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Sep 13 10:19:00 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 10:01:11 2018. That would be way beyond the level of accuracy of my prediction, which is not based on the slightest bit of inside knowledge, just on common sense. |
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| (1486677) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 13 14:45:41 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 10:01:11 2018. Probably 600 ft. I don’t think there will be enough either R-32s or NTTs in the 4 car configuration to add more 480 ft trains. |
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| (1486678) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 13 14:48:43 2018, in response to Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Chicago44 on Thu Sep 13 05:15:11 2018. Even with extra service, why would any Gs have to go to 18 Ave especially since there are no crew facilities there and crew changes would have to take place at Church Ave anyhow. Considering that prior to 1954 F service terminated at Church there should certainly be enough room to relay all the trains that would be operating even with the additional service. |
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| (1486680) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 14:50:36 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by randyo on Thu Sep 13 14:45:41 2018. What they are saying over at the "other" board is that the R32 fleet will be split 50/50 A and G trains. |
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| (1486685) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Sep 13 15:49:59 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by randyo on Thu Sep 13 14:45:41 2018. There are plenty of 480' trains that the L won't need. The M can't handle all of them. |
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| (1486688) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 17:12:01 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by AlM on Thu Sep 13 15:49:59 2018. The M will get 5 more trains per hour, but ENY will have 4-car R179's coming out of their ass. As the C moves to 600' trains, the G train is the only refuge for 4 car R160 sets for 8 car trains. |
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| (1486689) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Sep 13 17:15:14 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 17:12:01 2018. Aha! You answered your own question! |
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| (1486784) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 14 15:53:36 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 13 14:50:36 2018. That still may not be enough since there are only 200 working R-32s left. |
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| (1486957) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by The Queen on Mon Sep 17 16:17:28 2018, in response to Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Chicago44 on Thu Sep 13 05:15:11 2018. 1) Fix Bergen St lower level2) Run the G local with full length 600-foot trains 3) Have ALL F Trains run express in both directions from Church to Jay between 6AM to 10PM. Its the best way to run service when the L goes down. The G won't be plugged by F trains and you will get more reliable service. |
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| (1486958) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 16:26:41 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by The Queen on Mon Sep 17 16:17:28 2018. Local F stations will not tolerate G-only service. That's why the scheme fell apart in the 1970's. And they don't give a shit about the L train outage. |
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| (1486960) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 17 16:59:30 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 16:26:41 2018. The scheme didn’t really fall apart. The service pattern was modified so that K/Hwy Fs ran lcl between Jay and Church in the peak direction of traffic. |
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| (1486964) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 17:08:54 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by randyo on Mon Sep 17 16:59:30 2018. Still had service frequency to Manhattan cut in half. Would not be tolerated today wit the regentrification. Imagine sending the G to Forest Hills today and getting rid of the M or R. |
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| (1486967) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 17:40:39 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by randyo on Thu Sep 13 14:45:41 2018. "Full length" signifies 480' for the G. |
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| (1486968) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 17:42:19 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 16:26:41 2018. That is why they are only sending 3 F trains (out of how many F trains there are along the IND Brooklyn Line per hour) express. |
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| (1486969) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 17:44:16 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by randyo on Fri Sep 14 15:53:36 2018. There are 222 left, which would mean around 140 for the A and the rest for the G (along with 8-car R160As). |
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| (1486970) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 17:45:28 2018, in response to Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Chicago44 on Thu Sep 13 05:15:11 2018. Yo are you VTrain because not like this. |
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| (1486975) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 18:39:57 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 17:42:19 2018. I doubt anyone is going to stand around and wait for one. |
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| (1486993) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 20:08:51 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 18:39:57 2018. Yeah, if you catch it by luck then lucky you (or unlucky you if you get off a local stop) |
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| (1486998) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by zac on Mon Sep 17 21:51:19 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 20:08:51 2018. A regular rider would know when it comes. I can time leaving my house to the half minute to catch the B train I want, except for the frequent delays. |
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| (1487016) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Sep 18 06:14:07 2018, in response to Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Chicago44 on Thu Sep 13 05:15:11 2018. Hi Guys,For the longest time it has been a fundamental aspect of subway "math" that the signal system could only handle about 30 trains per hour, even if specfic terminals could not handle that amount of trains. Now there have been exceptions such as the #7 trains handling 33 trains per hour at Times Square in the 1970's by "keying" by the signals. Such a practice is frowned upon these days, if not ruled out due to changes in operating procedures. So let's just stick with the 30 trains per hour formula. It has been an article of faith that the only sections of track that have 30 trains per hour (or close to it) is the Queens Blvd express tracks with the E and F trains. Basically that is a train every two minutes, and along that route the trains are packed "to the gills" with riders. Generally this has meant 15 E trains per hour, and 15 F trains per hour during the rush hours. Having 15 trains per hour means a train every 4 minutes. In the past we have discussed why F train riders at the Brooklyn local stations would not WANT to give up such local service. Having G trains also stopping at some of the Brooklyn F train stations is a benefit at the close in local stations that have the highest ridership. The discussion / debate / battle on that issue has been won. Often there is a debate or proposal about increasing G train service, with the statement that there would be "too many local" trains operating on the local tracks. The proposal writer wonders if there would be many delays and disruptions if G service was increased. It is hoped that 3 F trains per hour would run express between Church Avenue and Bergen Street as a standard practice. I am pretty sure that if there are delays in service that the MTA dispatchers would route some F trains via the express tracks between those two stations - as a usual way to handle delays. Unless the MTA is going to increase G train service closer to or more than 15 trains per hour, I very much doubt that there will ever be "too many trains" for the local tracks. When was the last time in living memory that the G train ran at anything less than or equal to a train at every 4 minutes during the rush hours on a regular basis? Was it not too long ago that there was a movement of opinion to increase G train service to 10 minutes bewteen trains - 6 trains per hour? Is it now down to about 8 minutes of waiting time between G trains during the rush hours? An F express train once every 20 minutes in Brooklyn is really not much of an express. Mike |
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| (1487026) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Bzuck on Tue Sep 18 09:01:44 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Michael549 on Tue Sep 18 06:14:07 2018. The problem with the G is the time fumigation takes at Church Avenue. |
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| (1487040) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Sep 18 11:02:05 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by The Queen on Mon Sep 17 16:17:28 2018. 1) Bergen Lower will NOT be put back into service whatever ewe do.There is no reason why that system cannot run a FULL compliment of (F) and (GG) trains. If more service is required, Alternate (F) trains can run express and the Carroll Crybabies will still have there (Fn) Service |
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| (1487049) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 12:14:31 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 16:26:41 2018. You're not wrong, but this has become one of those transit tropes repeated rote because it was true 40 years ago. |
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| (1487055) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Sep 18 13:15:37 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 12:14:31 2018. I think it is a lot truer than it was 40 years ago, and even back then it was enough to shut it down. |
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| (1487058) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 13:25:24 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by R30A on Tue Sep 18 13:15:37 2018. That's also a fair point. It's just common practice around here to cite history as proof of why things can never happen. Things change, and in this case, you're probably right that it's more difficult than it was previously. |
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| (1487066) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Sep 18 14:04:19 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 12:14:31 2018. If you have train service every 4 minutes during the rush hours direct to Manhattan at the closer in local stations why would you voluntarily give it up?The F and G train stations from Bergen Street to Church Avenue - still to this day has the highest ridership compared to the rest of the Brooklyn F-train line. Yes, that is the same issue from "40 years ago" but still remains true. Why are there often proposals to reduce the direct to Manhattan service on the section of the line that has the highest ridership AT THE LOCAL STATIONS? Why: - One basic reason why this comes up is due to the track layout and facilities of the Brooklyn F-train line that lend itself to thinking about the possibilities. - Then there is the "IND-type logic" of having "closer in" local stations serviced by local trains, and stations further out serviced by express trains. - Plus there is the "transit foam-er folks" who just love to create express train services - because "nobody" really wants to see an excellent set of express tracks go to "waste". - Often these "transit foam-er folks" consider it a complete sin of the highest order to have an all local train service. - And very last very often are the actual needs of the riders at the high ridership local stations. So yes, this issue get beaten to death, time and time again. Mike |
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| (1487068) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 18 14:14:26 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Joe V on Mon Sep 17 17:08:54 2018. But with crowded exp trains from St carrying much of the load, the remaining local trains would not be as full possibly providing more seats. |
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| (1487073) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 18 15:27:10 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Sep 18 11:02:05 2018. If people in that part of Bkln scram loud enough and Prince Andrew orders it, then it will be put back in service. There is even enough room there to put in elevators between the levels for ADA. |
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| (1487075) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 15:44:38 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Michael549 on Tue Sep 18 14:04:19 2018. I'm not disputing the logic of keeping the F local.I'm annoyed by: · proposing another confusing F train express service that misses the ridership · criticizing the idea and repeating the history we all know They are both part of the endless cycle. |
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| (1487078) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Sep 18 16:04:58 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 15:44:38 2018. I hear you!It is our nature to repeat stuff. How many times has the 76th Street/Pitkin Avenue station been brought up? Soon there will be another "debate" about the 14th Street Tunnel Closure - which we've covered before, and before that, and before that. How many times have "they" brought up the idea of the connecting the E-train at WTC to the R-line? Or building a tunnel to connect it to the Transit Museum? Or the ideas about . . . It is our nature to repeat stuff. Mike |
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| (1487080) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Tue Sep 18 16:35:59 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Michael549 on Tue Sep 18 16:04:58 2018. Hey now, you're preaching to a fellow pedant! |
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| (1487126) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by The Queen on Wed Sep 19 03:16:58 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Sep 18 11:02:05 2018. The F and G Trains constantly plug each other up during rush hours between Bergen and Church in the peak direction. Separating the service would get trains moving.Go ride a few trains from Bergen St to Church Ave in the PM rush and see how bad it can get. Sometimes it can get backed up all the way to Smith-9th Or better yet, go stand at Bergen St on the southbound platform and see how many G trains get plugged by the F because of the speed restriction the F has to deal with while crossing the switch thats at the north end of the station. |
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| (1487140) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Sep 19 08:41:23 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Bzuck on Tue Sep 18 09:01:44 2018. Is there any way they could add switches just north of Church Ave. to allow G trains to terminate on the express tracks? |
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| (1487142) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Sep 19 09:48:06 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Sep 19 08:41:23 2018. Not sure. I think the express tracks rise up from their direct route from 7th Avenue. Those tracks don't just run underneath the locals (sorta like the E and F tracks east of Queens Plaza lower underneath the locals and swing on a more direct route to Roosevelt Avenue) |
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| (1487170) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Sep 19 15:49:01 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Sep 19 08:41:23 2018. No. The tracks are not level with each other north of the station. |
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| (1487198) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by K. Trout on Wed Sep 19 22:02:55 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Sep 19 09:48:06 2018. The express tracks do run directly underneath the local from about halfway between 15 St and Ft Hamilton Pkwy stations (where Prospect Av turns northwest at about 11 Av) to Church Av. However, they don't rise up to the local level until just north of Church Av, right about where the tunnel turns onto McDonald Av - you can sort of see the grade from the north end of the platforms.I suspect the tracks don't raise to the local level any further north because the tunnel runs under private property for most of the distance between Ft Hamilton Pkwy and Church Av (why that is the case, I do not know). |
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| (1487206) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Bzuck on Thu Sep 20 07:57:49 2018, in response to Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Chicago44 on Thu Sep 13 05:15:11 2018. They should terminate every other F at Church Avenue running local. The Coney Island F trains shou,d run express. Everyone wins in shins case. |
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| (1487211) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Thu Sep 20 09:03:45 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by K. Trout on Wed Sep 19 22:02:55 2018. Technically, between Ft Hamilton and Church, the tunnel is mostly under pubic property that the city bought in order to construct the IND.The land is above the tracks between Ft Hamilton and Church is still close to half empty, being used for parks or parking, with other land being used for a school and a library. It does look like the lot in the middle of the block between 3rd and 4th is private. If you look at the 1951 aerial photo you can see all the land above the tunnel is still cleared. I am assuming they built it with stacked tracks in order to keep the ROW narrow and reduce the number of buildings that would have to be demolished. You can also see the ROW on the NYC Tax Map |
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| (1487212) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Bzuck on Thu Sep 20 09:13:55 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by LA Scott on Thu Sep 20 09:03:45 2018. That is my old elementary school PS130! |
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| (1487220) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Sep 20 10:05:26 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Bzuck on Thu Sep 20 07:57:49 2018. 'cept o course the Carroll cryers... they will loose HALF of their trainsand are too stoopit to relize that the trains they are getting HAVE SEATS. ROAR |
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| (1487223) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 20 10:11:47 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by LA Scott on Thu Sep 20 09:03:45 2018. Here is a map showing the subway superimposed on a 2012 aerial view:Also here is the digital tax map of the same location showing the exact path of the subway under private property (indicated by "REUC"): I think you were the first to point out a few years back how to use the NYC digital tax map to locate the exact paths where subways pass under (or over) private peoperty. Thanks! |
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| (1487229) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Sep 20 11:13:15 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 20 10:11:47 2018. Thank you for the GIS and tax-lot maps.They were very informative. Mike |
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| (1487240) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Sep 20 12:45:34 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by MTA T on Mon Sep 17 17:45:28 2018. Of course it's Vtrain...... |
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| (1487242) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by Bzuck on Thu Sep 20 13:12:01 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Sep 20 10:05:26 2018. If you look at ridership the numbers are almost exactly half come from the Church to Bergan stations, and the other half from south of Church. The long distance passengers would get an express run, and the shorter riders would get trains starting empty at Church. And the MTA would need less equipment on the F. That is a Win, Win, Win for all.Or course it will never happen. |
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| (1487245) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Sep 20 13:21:20 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by VictorM on Thu Sep 20 10:11:47 2018. I wonder why they didn't just run it under Fort Ham. Pkwy. |
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| (1487258) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 20 14:31:05 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by italianstallion on Thu Sep 20 13:21:20 2018. When it could, the IND built express tracks along a more direct route that the local tracks of the same line. Between 36 St and Northern Blvd stations, in Queens, the exp tks follow Northern Blvd rather than The path of the lcl tks up Steinway St and Bway. In Bkln, tunneling a direct path under Prospect Pk between PPK West and Ft Hamilton Pky was more efficient than following PPK West and Prospect Ave. As for purchasing (probably condemning) private property to build subway lines, that was also common during IND subway construction as was the case with through routing 6 Av to Church St S/O W 3 St in Manhattan. |
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| (1487300) | |
Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train. |
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Posted by K. Trout on Fri Sep 21 00:16:48 2018, in response to Re: Increase G train during L train shutdown & Brooklyn F train., posted by LA Scott on Thu Sep 20 09:03:45 2018. Very interesting! I had assumed it was all private property. Thanks! |
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