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| Re: L line extension to New Jersey. (1467595) | |
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| (1467766) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 1 18:04:12 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by randyo on Thu Mar 1 17:27:10 2018. as with all previous RR and transit mergers, the unions in each classification will get to compete if they don't represent both partners, the seniority lists will get merged by negotiators, and since we are in the tech era, farecards can precisely measure fares for each rider so the divisions can be mileage based.Fun fantasy dept. NYMTA assumes NYS presence in PANYNJ. One yet larger opportunity for graft enterprise with a side business of facilitating transport. So here is another thought. Is there physical space to twist tracks from the 7 to run down 6th to hook up w/ the uptown PATH as proposed a century ago? Surely the closed off mezzanine walkway is tall enough. Time to leave for work. |
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| (1467767) | |
Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 1 18:05:12 2018, in response to Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey., posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 1 17:32:18 2018. Vancouver BC has a ZPTO elevated system. |
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| (1467770) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by JAFO on Thu Mar 1 18:17:32 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 1 18:04:12 2018. The recent RPA document does not have much to say about PATH other than it exists and could be improved with some tweaksPATH to GCT could be a major improvement, rather than a 7 extension to NJ. This can be done by building a new pair of rail tunnels under the length of 42nd St including the spaces originally reserved a century ago for the H&M to use. I recall there was space reserved between the IRT lines level (and the 42nd St shuttle line ) and the deeper Steinway tubes level, if the H&M was able to tunnel that far. There were provisions made in GCT to connect with a PATH station near GCT to provide easy transfers between mainline trains and PATH. The new pair of tunnels with a terminal at GCT (or further east at 2nd Ave/UN ) can be run under 42nd St westwards towards NJ, with stations at Times Square, and 9th/10th Ave to connect with all the major subway lines before going under the Hudson River and the under Palisades, curving southwards to a western portal near the existing Amtrak NEC portals. Continuing southwards, the new line will run along the NEC and connect to Secacus for transfers with Amtrak and NJTransit, and continue further south to connect with the existing PATH lines to Newark for other transfers (such as the Newark Airport AirTrain) PATH can also be extended from Hoboken Terminal to Secacus by adding to the grand junction and running westwards under the Palisades . This provides another way for passengers to transfer using PATH to/from NYC – especially the East Side, or lower manhattan There can be a new station where this new 42nd st line crosses under the HBLR to give HBLR users access to Manhattan, although since HBLR already has a station at Hoboken terminal, that can be the transfer point to use the new 42nd st PATH route via Secacus or penn stn The existing 6th ave PATH line could be extended north from Penn Stn. to the 42nd st line terminal, providing a second route to this new terminus. This can provide a type of “circle line” from Hoboken: clockwise via Secaucus and the 42nd st line to Times Square, GCT, 42nd st terminus, then via 6th ave line to Penn and back to Hoboken; or counter-clockwise using the 6th ave line to the 42nd st terminal, and the 42nd st line back to Hoboken These new lines can be built without interrupting the use of PABT, and a new PABT can be built somewhere along the line in NJ to transfer the bus commuters to PATH or NJTransit rail systems, so that thousands of commuter buses don’t need to make the trans-Hudson journey twice every rush hour (in the AM trip the bus is full of commuters, then has a dead-head trip to layup in NJ, only to return empty for the PM commute) . With the commuter buses no longer needing to use the PABT in Manhattan, it could be rebuilt for the long–distance inter-city, inter-state and trans-border buses that still need to have a Manhattan stop Another thought is to re-activate the abandoned rail lines west of the Hudson in northern NJ and southern NY State to be used by PATH, connecting from NJ, tunnelling under the palisades and under the Hudson to a new 58th St line, with stations connecting to the major N/S subway line stations nearby. This could reduce (or eliminate entirely) the number of commuter buses needed between these west-of-Hudson counties and Manhattan using the PABT (or a new NJ PABT), and should provide a better commute I suspect that this could be done for less than the estimated $10 billion pricetag of just renovating the PABT. We saw the final price of the WTC PATH station and Oculus climb from $1 billion to over $4 billion, so will we be surprised when the PABT rebuild becomes yet another NYC $giga-$project that goes over budget and over schedule before completion? And after PABT is rebuilt at great expense, there will still be thousands of buses clogging the highways, tunnels and streets in both states during and between the rush hours, with effectively no improvement for the trans-Hudson traffic or commuters. Being realistic, this also can go over budget and over schedule like other recent PATH and MTA projects, but when completed it is new useful commuting infrastructure, and can likely be done in stages over decades. This seems better than spending over $Ten $Billion to maintain the commuting status quo at PABT. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1467774) | |
Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 1 18:33:35 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 1 15:16:11 2018. I can't see that one working, unless they make it Times Square via GCT to NWK (i.e. the original IRT); and even then, the TSQ platforms aren't suitable. |
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| (1467775) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 1 18:33:39 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by randyo on Thu Mar 1 17:27:10 2018. Close but no cigar. Truck centers on PATH cars are 3' closer. You'd have clearance issues on sharp curves, and some of the PATH tunnels have little tolerance. |
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| (1467777) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 1 18:35:05 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by randyo on Thu Mar 1 17:27:10 2018. PATH cars and IRT cars are virtually identical in dimensionsWell, they used to be. PATH cars are wider these days, right? |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 1 18:41:00 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by JAFO on Thu Mar 1 18:17:32 2018. We already have 2 subways across 42nd. The Shuttle is under-utilized, as are reverse peak #7 trains.. We don't need a 3rd subway.The uptown PATH can't be extended anywhere. It was cut back a block when the IND got built and now permanently blockaded. Everything else sounds a far harder than extending #7 to SEC, which I think would be in the $8 - $10B range.#7 extension does not require much tunneling in Manhattan. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 1 18:52:29 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 1 18:35:05 2018. About 8" at the belt line. Their height may also differ. PATH cars seem to have a flatter roof. |
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| (1467784) | |
Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Think twice on Thu Mar 1 21:25:49 2018, in response to 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 1 13:39:21 2018. This site still has the full details of the plan:http://www.rrwg.org/path-lex.htm egotripexpress.com |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Thu Mar 1 22:06:57 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 1 18:33:39 2018. So use PATH sized cars in the IRT. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Thu Mar 1 22:08:30 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 1 17:33:13 2018. If they didn’t rebuild the tunnel after Sandy, they never will. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Thu Mar 1 22:14:10 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 1 18:33:35 2018. They could make the 6 the Lex express and the 4 or 5 a local. |
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| (1467795) | |
Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 1 22:59:20 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Think twice on Thu Mar 1 21:25:49 2018. Redesign the street (Fulton Street) for pedestrians, keeping 12 feet along each side for walking and access to buildings and using half of the center for an emergency and service vehicle lane and the other half for access to the subway complex and for open air cafés.Well, that sure is a non-starter. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 1 23:15:10 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Think twice on Thu Mar 1 21:25:49 2018. I never knew about extending the (6) across the Hudson. So basically, this would have been the MTA taking over the WTC portion of the PATH line and running that to Newark Penn Station. If built, it would have not only given PATH riders east side access, but give those on the UES access and the Bronx easier access to New Jersey. |
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| (1467798) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 1 23:38:28 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 1 14:05:17 2018. NYU is only getting bigger.You have dorms for NYU that are as far as over a mile from the main campus as I understand it and is also a major employer. Plus, the (L) is a short train ride BOTH WAYS from every other trunk line in Manhattan and there are not the walking issues to reach the 8th Avenue line that they are with the (7) at 14th, and you have both the Broadway and Lexington Avenue lines at Union Square, another major transfer point. Plus, as noted, the (L) is straight at 14th whereas the (7) has turned downtown towards Hudson Yards, |
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| (1467805) | |
Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 2 01:58:30 2018, in response to Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey., posted by Steamdriven on Thu Mar 1 14:37:25 2018. Don't want them automated. Terrorists would just love that even more than the status quo. |
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| (1467806) | |
Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 2 01:59:06 2018, in response to Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 1 18:05:12 2018. Only a matter of time before that hits a big disaster. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 2 02:00:07 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Italianstallion on Thu Mar 1 22:14:10 2018. That they could. |
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| (1467815) | |
Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 2 07:11:11 2018, in response to Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey., posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Mar 1 09:39:27 2018. I remember discussion in 1989 or so of extending the 7 to NJ. At the time, being young, I believed it. Now, I only believe what I actually see- I was surprised that SAS Phase 1 got done.But now, that they did in fact, extend the 7 but turn the tracks southwards, like you said, extending it to NJ wouldn't even make sense.I can think of many projects that I'd like to see. But since resources are limited, I think the most practical effort "they" can make would be a full-length SAS, using as much existing infrastructure as possible- the portions already built above 96th St, the tunnel under the apartment building in Chinatown, and the unused capacity in the Nassau/Centre Street line. Yes, I know that would limit the t to 8-car trains. That would still be better than the existing service level- no? A 10th Ave subway would also be nice- but it's a pipe dream for now. |
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| (1467818) | |
Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 08:23:28 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Mar 1 17:06:34 2018. With the WTC connections open, PATH to 4/5 is not bad - about a 5 minute walk, all inside though nice wide spaces. |
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| (1467819) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 08:27:40 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 1 23:38:28 2018. Going though Hudson Yards is a big plus, considering how many new office buildings are going up there.NYU is a big employer, but nothing remotely close to the combined employment along 42nd. The NYU core also has closer connectivity with the PATH at 9th. |
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| (1467823) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 2 09:17:14 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 08:27:40 2018. Also of course NYU is very decentralized. Even considering only the Greenwich Village campus, depending on where you are the most convenient subway station could be W 4th, Bway-Lafayette/Bleecker, 8th Street, Astor Place, Union Square, or 3 Av. |
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| (1467826) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 10:54:47 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by randyo on Thu Mar 1 17:27:10 2018. Aren’t PATH cars wider than IRT cars? PATH trains would be too wide for the Steinway tunnels and the 7 line from Times Square to LIC. |
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| (1467827) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 11:08:31 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 1 14:05:17 2018. No. Where people work should NOT be the only factor in deciding which subway line to extend. The 7 line with its tiny train cars and narrow platforms is crowded enough as it is with riders coming from Jackson Heights, Corona and Flushing - not to mention all the folks who connect with the 7 from points east (myself included) at the busiest subway-to-bus transfer point in the entire system, Main St-Flushing. And don’t forget about all the high-rises going up in LIC as we speak. Those are sure to put more riders on the 7. And now you want to the throw suburban commuters from NJ into that mix as well? Just imagine what that’ll be like. Especially on Mets game days or during the US Open?No thanks! If they want to extend the 7, the best direction to do is EAST! |
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| (1467828) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 11:21:07 2018, in response to L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 1 10:09:02 2018. Yes! I’ll agree with the L being a better subway option than the 7. Although a new PATH line would be a better option than either the L - and a much better option than the already overburdened 7. |
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| (1467832) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 2 11:47:35 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 11:08:31 2018. But the rush hours are in opposite directions. The eastbound 7 is not crowded in the AM rush. You can extend the 7 east and west at the same time. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 12:18:36 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by AlM on Fri Mar 2 11:47:35 2018. The 7's platforms at Grand Central, 5th Ave and Times Square aren't wide enough to handle both Queens and Jersey commuters. And they're located well below the surface, so adding platforms will not be an easy (or inexpensive) task. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 2 13:08:02 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 12:18:36 2018. The 7's platforms at Grand Central, 5th Ave and Times Square aren't wide enough to handle both Queens and Jersey commutersThey are way less bad than the 4/5/6 at Grand Central and at 14th. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 13:11:20 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 12:18:36 2018. Times Square has a lot of open space above the platform that could be used for additional circulation, and 5th Ave does not ever seem overcrowded.Grand Central would be much tougher to improve. The best bet may be carving out side platforms, which would be very expensive, but so would everything else involving new cross-river and Manhattan capacity. The L platforms are also space constrained, and compared to 7 a lot more people are transferring to other platforms instead of exiting the station. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 2 13:17:45 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by AlM on Fri Mar 2 09:17:14 2018. Astor Place (6) and 8th Street (R/W) are one block apart and both are within reasonable walking distance from Union Square. Bleecker you can do either from the F/M at 6th Avenue or (6) at Union Square (and of course West 4 on the F/M as well). 3rd Avenue of course you can just stay on the (L).This all said, the (L) would overall be more convenient for those living in Jersey since except for the (7) and J/Z you would be able to transfer to every major line in the city (including the (G) at Lorimer), especially if you factor in those who work downtown. Those actually looking for Queens from NJ could take the (L) to Lorimer to the (G) to the (7) or E/M at Court Square. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 2 13:36:22 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 08:23:28 2018. The other option to get PATH connctions to the East Side is to build the one-time planned 9th St line to Tompkins Sq Pk (a large enough space to build a terminal w/a couple of storage tracks. The 9th St spur could have a station bridging Astor Place and a SAS station at 8th/9th sts.. That gives riders (when SAS is built) two East Side Trunks as well as service to/from T Sq Pk. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 14:10:25 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by AlM on Fri Mar 2 13:08:02 2018. They'll be just as bad with the addition of Jersey commuters. Especially if the 7 has problems or there's a Mets game or the US Open is going on. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 14:27:08 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 13:11:20 2018. Yes, the L is space constrained too. That’s why my preference is for a new PATH crossing, preferably somewhere between 42nd and 59th. |
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Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 2 15:08:04 2018, in response to Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 2 07:11:11 2018. Nassau/Centre wouldn’t necessarily have to be limited to 8 car trains but it would be a little more expensive to extend the platforms there than in other parts of the system. |
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| (1467866) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:37:54 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Italianstallion on Thu Mar 1 22:06:57 2018. They are still 51'6". That means the outer ends on curves likewise will not clear IRT. |
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| (1467867) | |
Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:40:29 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 1 23:15:10 2018. The proposal was called "PATH-Lex". When the WTC bathtub was an open pit, it was an ideal time to do it. But that window has permanently closed again. |
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| (1467868) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:42:29 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Mar 2 13:17:45 2018. There is no comparison with the job sites near GCT with that of Union Square. An L train extension is a non-starter. |
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Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:43:33 2018, in response to Re: 7 line extension to New Jersey., posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 2 07:11:11 2018. #7 to NJ was first proposed in the 1920's. Read "Routes Not Taken" book. |
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| (1467870) | |
Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:45:32 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 11:08:31 2018. #7 carries nowhere near the number of passengers than it did with 36 trains per hour and during the World's Fair.Suburban NJ passengers are already on it, from NYPS and PABT. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:47:08 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 12:18:36 2018. The narrow 2/3 Wall Street and Fulton Street island platforms do just fine with crowded trains coming every couple of minutes from both directions. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:47:58 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by LA Scott on Fri Mar 2 13:11:20 2018. Fifth Avenue is way under-utilized.Stairways can be added to Grand Central. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 2 15:48:52 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:37:54 2018. If the PATH cars are too large for the IRT then why won't the IRT cars fit on the PATH? |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 16:13:09 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by randyo on Fri Mar 2 15:48:52 2018. The opposite reason. Middle of car on the inside of curves may not clear PATH. Trucks are farther apart. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 16:54:14 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:45:32 2018. What the 7 line carried 50+ years ago is not my concern. What is my concern, is dealing with the ridership it has now, including all the transferees from east Queens and the new residents and workers in LIC. Figure that out first, build Gateway, then we'll talk about the 7 going interstate. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 17:23:25 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Mar 2 16:54:14 2018. It should be your concern, because far more passengers were hauled in back then onto the Manhattan platforms, yet you are saying it can't be done now, with the difference coming from the west rather than the east. What good is Gateway if the additional people cannot then be circulated onto the subways, including the #7, to get to the GCT area, once in Manhattan ? |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 2 17:43:09 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 2 13:36:22 2018. Interesting, but it's a flat junction there. It will seriously interfere with 33rd St service. |
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Re: L line extension to New Jersey. |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Fri Mar 2 23:14:27 2018, in response to Re: L line extension to New Jersey., posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 16:13:09 2018. The solution is a new class of cars that would fit both lines. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Fri Mar 2 23:16:05 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 2 15:40:29 2018. Nothing is permanently closed. Just need a lot of digging. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Fri Mar 2 23:19:30 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 2 13:36:22 2018. There won’t be an SAS station at 8th St. |
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Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 2 23:27:42 2018, in response to Re: 6 line extension to New Jersey, posted by Italianstallion on Fri Mar 2 23:19:30 2018. It can connect to the Avenue C Cuphandle. |
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