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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 09:39:17 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 10 21:04:20 2018. And the trains don't arrive from the yard till close to departure time.Of course, that's the reason they can't be boarded until close to departure time. But why don't they arrive from the yard earlier? Because probably there was another train in that track 10 minutes before. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 09:41:40 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jan 11 07:17:13 2018. I'm a real New Yorker, and I sometimes do. That is the address of my employer, and that's how I state the address when someone asks. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 09:52:18 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 09:39:17 2018. Off peak on the LIRR, they take their sweet ass time to come in from the yard even though 2 of the 3 departure tracks, generally tracks 17 - 19, are vacant.7 trains per hour on 3 tracks does not have to mean loading in just 5 -10 minutes. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 09:56:57 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Jan 11 09:07:42 2018. Amtrak plays dispatching games and they are idiots.They love to have their trains leapfrog NJT trains at SEC, which delays them 3 - 4 minutes, then Amtrak, sometimes an Acela, sits outside Newark Penn to enter track 3, at which time the NJT train they overtook catches up with it on track 4. They could have just as well run single file. They also have stupid things like on weekends when an NJT trains is scheduled to depart NYP at the same time as the Silver Meteor. So NJT goes first, then 97 leapfrogs it at SEC delaying it, only for 97 to sit at NWK for 5 minutes itself doing station and baggage work. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 11:06:57 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 08:37:46 2018. Never mind their still having that insane "Secaucus Loop" on the long-term agenda as well. Why bother with the station, especially after "Allied Junction" pulled the plug? (Never mind the disaster with relocating the Bergen County Line and building Exit 15X.) |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 11:10:16 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 11 05:34:26 2018. Exactly.Never mind EWR; I never say "Newark Liberty". |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 11 11:26:00 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 09:41:40 2018. It's specious to claim that "A of A" never caught on because real New Yorkers are just stuck in their ways. How many people still call Park Avenue South "Fourth Avenue?" The reason "A of A" didn't catch on is because it's unwieldy. Also, 6th Avenue is the obvious name between 5th and 7th Avenues. Park Avenue South is less obviously 4th Avenue because it's not directly between 3rd and 5th Avenues. That and the more prominent section of 4th Avenue had already been called "Park Avenue" for quite some time. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jan 11 11:28:34 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 11 11:26:00 2018. iawtp |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 12:11:16 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 11:06:57 2018. "one seat ride" (to NYPS) to some planners and politicians is RELIGION ! |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 12:32:25 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 11 11:26:00 2018. The reason "A of A" didn't catch on is because it's unwieldy.I agree. I prefer not to use it except when I feel that not using it could cost me time or aggravation. I wish New Yorkers would use 4th Ave. And with all due respect for Messrs. Douglass, Powell, etc., and even Columbus, I wish that numbered avenues were still more in vogue north of 59th Street and especially 110th Street. I never liked Lenox Ave. either, despite the undoubted importance of the Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundations. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Russellsal on Thu Jan 11 13:09:18 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 09:52:18 2018. Yeah the off peak hours train announcements for LIRR at Penn never made sense to me. They could easily announce trains 20 minutes in advance during the off-peak hours, but I've never seen them do that. My theory is that it's along the lines of why Metro-North runs trains into the GCT lower level on the weekends: for concessions purposes. Meaning, for passengers who arrive 20 minutes before their train leaves, they'll be more likely to spend money at a concession stand/ store since they won't be able to board their train. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 13:51:26 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 22:27:38 2018. BRILLIANT!It would also be cheaper then the convoluted Access to the Region's Core schema. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 11 14:43:53 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 22:27:38 2018. It makes perfect sense which is why it probably won’t be done. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 15:30:35 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 16:49:50 2018. Nice pic! I agree NY Penn looked like a beautiful building in it's prime but imo GCT looked better. But then again Penn was torn down bf I was born and I obviously been to GCT personally.I'm curious how the LIRR level looked in the old NY Penn. I've never seen pictures of it or did they share their concourse with PRR? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 16:02:00 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 15:30:35 2018. I've never really understood what was on each level of the old Penn. Since the tracks are 3 levels down, you've got ground level, 1 level down, and 2 levels down to work with. In the new Penn, ground level is hardly used for train-related stuff. What was there in the old Penn? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 11 16:05:06 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 11 14:43:53 2018. failure to provide adequate oppportunities for graft--the single most important aspect of large public projects. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Jan 11 16:09:19 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Wed Jan 10 20:23:56 2018. "... the existing tunnels would be rebuilt to the same dimensions of the new tunnels."Can that be done? Aren't those tunnels constructed with Iron Rings, similar to the Steinway tunnels which would make it next to impossible to enlarge? Or are you talking about replacing instead of rebuilding. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 11 16:17:40 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 16:02:00 2018. start here for some pixand descriptions.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910%E2%80%931963) my dim memories from the late 50s are that it was an awesome space as were most "signature" RR stations in the US. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Jan 11 16:54:24 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Russellsal on Thu Jan 11 13:09:18 2018. In GCT, the train is supposed to be open and ready to receive passengers exactly 20 minutes prior to departure. At least thats the way it was when I worked there. There was a time that rule was enforced to the second! |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 11 17:11:10 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 15:30:35 2018. LIRR never shard the concourse with the PRR.The main LIRR Concourse is still pretty much the same with new cosmetics. An original iron and glass wall that they forget to demolish forms the entrance to the ticketed waiting room. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 19:24:53 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Jan 10 17:01:09 2018. Cuomo Station with the whole place painted blue and yellow. Wouldn't put it pass him...lol |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 19:55:25 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Jan 11 16:09:19 2018. Can that be done? Aren't those tunnels constructed with Iron Rings, similar to the Steinway tunnels which would make it next to impossible to enlarge? Or are you talking about replacing instead of rebuilding.I can think of no reason why it can't. Are you familiar with New Austrian Tunneling Method? This tunneling technology can be used to excavate the soil and or bedrock outside the existing iron ring liner to allow the enlarging of the existing tunnels. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 11 20:12:32 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 19:55:25 2018. which is to say technoogy has definitely progressed in a century. Soundslike we should hire the Swiss Railways folks to do the job, too. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 21:13:07 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 11 16:17:40 2018. Nice pics. They really don't show the LIRR level unless I missed it. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 21:14:39 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 16:02:00 2018. Me either the pictures I've seen just shows the main hall. I guess that makes sense since that was likely the most majestic, photogenic part of the station. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 21:59:44 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Wed Jan 10 20:23:56 2018. The tunnels would be bored to a more generous dimensions to allow the movement of taller rolling stockWhy bother, unless the dimensions within the station and the East River tunnels are also enlarged? And besides, the only real purpose would be to run freight through there; forget about Superliners, due to the high platforms. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jan 11 22:36:44 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Jan 10 12:02:18 2018. The station building has nothing to do with the tunnels being in danger of having to be shut down. I never saw the original Penn Station, but the height of the ceilings in the current station has never struck me as being a significant problem. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 23:51:05 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 11 20:12:32 2018. which is to say technoogy has definitely progressed in a century. Soundslike we should hire the Swiss Railways folks to do the job, too.What the hell for. We have dozens of tunneling contractors right here in United States that are well versed in the technology. WMATA has at least 8 miles of tunnels that were excavated using the New Austrian Tunneling Method. The most resent being the tunnels on the Silver line in Tysons Corner. The contractor that dug the tunnels under the mid field concourses and taxi ways for the AeroTrain at Dulles Airport used the New Austrian Tunneling Method. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 12 00:37:04 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 21:14:39 2018. How many pictures do people take of the SEPTA concourse at 30th st? Basically the same situation... |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jan 12 01:13:13 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 23:51:05 2018. because thjey built their Gpothard (sp?) tunnel at a fraction of the cost per length and infaster time than ANY recent US rail project. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 12 01:15:31 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 12 00:37:04 2018. Sometimes people get that concourse mixed up with Newark Penn. There are many styling similarities. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 12 01:16:08 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 12 00:37:04 2018. Sometimes people get that concourse mixed up with Newark Penn. There are many styling similarities.* Edit: I was thinking of the platforms. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 12 01:16:55 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 23:51:05 2018. We have dozens of tunneling contractors right here in United States that are well versed in the technologyBut how much would they charge us? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 12 06:53:24 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 12 00:37:04 2018. The 30th Street Concourse is fantastic!! Also, the men's room at that station is actually CLEAN. I mean, the best I'd ever expect of a bathroom in a train station or airport is that it shouldn't be totally horrendous.At GCT and NYP, depending on when maintenance was last through, the men's rooms range between gross (at best) to horrendous. There are no words to accurately describe what they were like pre-1995 or so... |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 12 06:59:09 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jan 11 21:13:07 2018. I have long wondered the same thing. I was born in '68, so I never saw the original either. From what I can gather, the layout of the LIRR level was almost the same as today, with the ticket windows in the exact same place...-- but the only photo I've ever seen of it was from 1965, during the blackout, with people sleeping on the floor. But by then, I'm not sure how far along the "renovations" were, at that level. The signage looks contemporaneous to '65, so it's probably not the sort of pic that would answer the question. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Jan 12 09:12:36 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jan 12 01:13:13 2018. Have there been any recent long rail tunnels under mountains in the US?Most of the costs in recent US rail projects are from stations (including utility relocation) and not the actual tunneling. US rail construction costs are obscene (and NYC even worse), but the Gotthard Base Tunnel is not the best comparison to use. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 10:14:28 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 12 01:16:55 2018. But how much would they charge us?The same amount they would charge anybody else plus the administrative costs needed to comply with the regulatory and labor requirements that are attached to federally funded public works project. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 12 10:19:37 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 21:59:44 2018. Who knows what rolling stock might exist in the future, that could take advantage of the larger tunnels and still use high platforms?Anyway, I'm thinking that the connection of the new tunnels with the old would be easier if the New York end were still an open cut. Will supports for the platform the Hudson Yards development is being built on interfere with the connection, or with the reconfiguration of the interlocking? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 10:24:03 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 12 10:19:37 2018. Hudson Yards does not cover any part of the approach to Penn Station. You must be thinking of Manhattan West. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Jan 12 10:35:31 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 10:24:03 2018. Hudson Yards would interfere with a new tunnel coming into the North side of Penn.The future ROW box built was for two tracks on the South side. I believe Manhattan West was built with a truss structure over the former open air approach, so it could be reconfigured. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by pragmatist on Fri Jan 12 10:36:29 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 10:24:03 2018. He might be thinking of the box built underneath Hudson Yards to preserve access to new tunnels in the future.... |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 12 12:09:25 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 10:24:03 2018. Yes, I got the name wrong, Manhattan West. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 12 12:22:44 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 10:14:28 2018. Well, let me reword that. How much would they charge us versus those foreign firms mentioned in other posts? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by geoffc on Fri Jan 12 13:21:39 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 23:51:05 2018. How did the raw costs of the tunneling costs compare? Accepting that stations and utilities are the real painful part of tunnel building, is it possible to pull out just the tunneling costs? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 13:25:35 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 11 16:02:00 2018. I just assumed the ground level was mostly air. The pics of the concourse imply it. I would love to see a floor plan.What was at the site of the present NJT concourse before that was built? |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jan 12 16:12:50 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 13:25:35 2018. What was at the site of the present NJT concourse before that was built? Good question. Prior to the building of that concourse, which I think is 1-1/2 levels down, I have walked west from the south end of the 2/3, 1 level below the subway and therefore 2 levels below the street. It was a deserted corridor with solid walls and maybe some locked doors to the left. Eventually (about mid-block) a passageway to the LIRR concourse went off to the right. That implies that much of the southeast quadrant of Penn Station, 2 levels down, was off limits to passengers. Probably used for railroad purposes. I never felt that corridor would be particularly safe outside of rush hour. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jan 12 16:20:35 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by AlM on Fri Jan 12 16:12:50 2018. the hallway you describe was part of the rain/snow free route to/from the 6th Ave IND along w/ the "Gimbels" walkway when it was still extant, |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 12 16:28:48 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jan 12 16:20:35 2018. That corridor is called the "Hilton Passage" and remains in use. The north end of the NJT concourse ramps into it directly opposite the main LIRR concourse. |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 12 16:33:12 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 19:55:25 2018. If that could be done with the Hudson River tunnels, then the only thing that would prevent the same thing from being done with the Steinway tunnels is $$$$$$$! |
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Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 12 17:47:07 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Thu Jan 11 19:55:25 2018. Are the Hudson river & Steinway tunnels bored thru solid rock? It Seems that the NATM method is designed to work best when going thru solid rock. IIRC both tunnels only have sections that go thru bedrock, the rest thru muck thus might not a viable tunneling method for a rebuild. |
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