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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 19:26:48 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Dec 30 18:52:53 2017.

when CBTC proves itself, give mea call. CTA managed tighterheadwaysw/ relay based block signals decadesago. BARTwith all of the whiz band computers can't runenough TPH to soak up the markety.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 30 21:38:44 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Dec 30 18:52:53 2017.

The original signals on the IND were reliable enough for all these years and their timers were not excruciatingly slow but pretty reasonable for the conditions that existed at the time and still exist.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 30 22:08:10 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Dec 30 00:07:46 2017.

First off, the RBB does not cover SE Queens.

Why would you say that? The Rockaways are not part of SE Queens?

Second, the number of potential people who live and work more than 1 mile apart with both within walking distance of the Woodhaven Blv/Bway corridor (Q52/53 SBS routes) is very small.

What about trips whose start and end points are along that route?

There are many ways to increase Queens Blv local train service without building a new terminal. This is an artificial limit. It's based on work rules not infrastructure.

Like how? Unless I'm mistaken, trains are going out to Jamaica yard to turn around, which is quite far away. Terminate trains beyond Forest Hills? They start interfering with frequent E and/or F service. Which work rules do you consider expendable?

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 30 22:53:49 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 30 22:08:10 2017.

Most trains terminating at CTL do not make it all the way into J Yd but turn on a specific set of relay tracks between Ctl and 75 Ave. There are even enough tracks immediately N/O Ctl to lay up some trains.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 31 08:52:20 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 30 22:08:10 2017.

Why would you say that? The Rockaways are not part of SE Queens?

The transit deserts in SE Queens are: Queens Village; St. Albans; Cambria Heights; Laurelton; Springfield Gardens and South Jamaica. Roughly draw a north-south line along Van Wyck Exp up through Flushing Meadow Park and an east-west line along Jamaica Ave. The SE Queens transit desert lies in the lower right quadrant.

The Rockaways are well served by facilities. It's a different issue, if the service does not meet expectations. That's a management, not an ifrastructure problem.

What about trips whose start and end points are along that route?

Perhaps, I wasn't clear. The numbers I gave, included all commute to work trips where both the home and job locations were within 1/2 mile of the route. The only commutes that were excluded were those whose whose distance were less than 1 mile.

This included commutes between Rockaway Park and Woodside on the Q53 and all points in between that were longer than 1 mile. Ditto for the Q52 but between Arverne and Queens Center.

Sorry, the numbers just aren't there, despite the hyperbole.

I'm mistaken, trains are going out to Jamaica yard to turn around, which is quite far away.

As Mr. Randyo pointed out, there are ample relay tracks and multiple crossovers to turn locals at Forest Hills. Here's a link to the track layout. The problem isn't physical. Work rules prevent turning more trains, without incurring an exorbitant expense.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Dec 31 10:36:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 30 22:53:49 2017.

OK, so what is slowing down the terminal at Forest Hills? The only thing I can think of is that take it takes time to clear the train, which can be easily solved by having a team of people clear every train that ends it's run.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Dec 31 10:53:08 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 31 08:52:20 2017.

The Rockaways are well served by facilities. It's a different issue, if the service does not meet expectations. That's a management, not an ifrastructure problem.

The numbers I gave, included all commute to work trips where both the home and job locations were within 1/2 mile of the route. The only commutes that were excluded were those whose whose distance were less than 1 mile.


Except that's the point. The other purpose of the RBB is to provide a service that cuts across Queens. It's not just a management problem, because there are no operable tracks that go from the Rockaways to Queens Blvd without going miles out of the way, so it's not simply a mismanaged service.

And you also missed the point of my other question. I agree that you should not count trips under a mile, but I don't agree that you should limit it only to home<->job trips. I'm saying you should consider ANY trips over a mile. That should also include trips of at least half a mile on the bus lines which continue on the Queens Blvd train lines.



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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by orange blossom special on Sun Dec 31 11:18:52 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

"I do not understand how that fact could have been missed by the New York Times!"

People in the 49 other states expect the NYTimes to be that way.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 31 13:06:20 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Sun Dec 31 10:53:08 2017.

The other purpose of the RBB is to provide a service that cuts across Queens.

That purpose should be deferred until the percentage people further than 1/2 mile from a subway stop falls below 5%. The first priority should be for these people because they really have been left behind.

I don't agree that you should limit it only to home<->job trips. I'm saying you should consider ANY trips over a mile.

There's no easy way for the public to measure origin/destination (O/D) trip preferences. The commute to work is an exception because the LEHD census data comes from forms used for tax purposes.

All other O/D preference reports use survey data, which is far less reliable, much more expensive to obtain and far less specific for planning purposes. It would be nice to include discretionary trips but reliable data isn't available.

There's also the priority question. We view providing inexpensive reliable transportation between home and work for all as a practical necessity. It's easy to get diverted from the primary purpose with less important frills that masquerade as necessities.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 31 15:38:37 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by orange blossom special on Sun Dec 31 11:18:52 2017.

Actually, not.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 31 18:15:54 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Sun Dec 31 10:36:53 2017.

Lack of terminal personnel is definitely the problem. At one time, every terminal especially ones that required fumigation, had a staff of platform C/Rs who functioned not only to clear out trains, but also to set drum switches (for door control when trains were cut and/or added) and change signs when necessary. With trains no longer being cut or added in most cases, with the increase in electronic signs that don't require manual changing and with newer trains not requiring the manipulation of drum switches to set up C/R operating positions, the number of platform C/Rs at terminals has been greatly reduced and in many cases eliminated entirely.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Bzuck on Sun Dec 31 18:35:00 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Sun Dec 31 18:15:54 2017.

At platforms requiring fumigation they need at least one person for every two cars.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 31 19:46:55 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Sun Dec 31 10:36:53 2017.

Or just run the trains to 179 like they should be.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Dec 31 20:07:50 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bzuck on Sun Dec 31 18:35:00 2017.

Correct, but personnel costs money and benefits. Transit does not want to pay.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 31 21:39:56 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 31 19:46:55 2017.

Then youíve just moved the same problem to a different location.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jan 1 07:54:43 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Edwards! on Thu Dec 28 01:27:01 2017.

Add to that Robert Mosesí steadfast refusal to allow rapid transit tracks to be built on the Verrazano Bridge. That didnít help.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 08:36:11 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 31 08:52:20 2017.

Whether you are out in a "transit desert" or along the Woodhaven Blvd does not matter much, it comes out to the same thing: you are on a feeder bus to a subway station.

For people getting such a bus near Woodhaven Blvd & Jamaica Avenue, it does not matter that there are J train stations there and at 104th Street - they are not taking it. OTOH, if they had a Brooklyn Manor station at their disposal, they may just use it. Extending the Archer and Hillside subways to Laurelton and Queen Village is fare more of a fantasy.

Forest Hills fumigation work rules are here to stay. They should not be disregarded as a "management issue".

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 1 09:55:22 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 08:36:11 2018.

For people getting such a bus near Woodhaven Blvd & Jamaica Avenue, it does not matter that there are J train stations there and at 104th Street - they are not taking it.

So people need to have perfect subway service, not just adequate?




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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 10:04:25 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 1 09:55:22 2018.

If you want to lecture them that they should take the J train or sweat out the Q53, and must wait in line behind Utica Ave, Flatbush Ave, Hillside Avenue, and Union Tpke subways, go right ahead.

If they want better than that, they will give you the proverbial finger and move out. That's why we see massive regentrification along the L & M trains, not the J, nor along the Woodhaven Blvd, SBS bullshit notwithstanding.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 10:58:18 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 10:04:25 2018.

One solution would be to build the center track on the J line so those folks could have a decent express service.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:17:51 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 10:58:18 2018.

There's a lot of things that can be done, but it was a schlep 100 years ago, it is a schlep today.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:50:31 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:17:51 2018.

No more a schlep than the E train. Express service would compete well with the E in time of travel.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jan 1 13:07:32 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Edwards! on Thu Dec 28 01:27:01 2017.

I believe that the collapse of the deal between the BRT and B&O Railroad, a major deadly train accident in Brooklyn and the related bankruptcy of the BRT - simply had nothing to do with any "Not In My Backyard" sentiments of the small numbers of Staten Islanders almost 100 years ago.

I believe that the collapse of the IND's Second System in the midst of the Great Depression that affected major sections of Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens and its connection from the G-train line to Staten Island - simply had nothing to do with any "Not In My Backyard" sentiments of the small numbers of Staten Islanders almost 90 years ago.

As I and others have said before the basic NYC subway system was in major ways completed by the 1940's with consolidations, reductions, and system-level connections occurring with little new rail construction or expansion - the exceptions being the new terminal for the #7 at the Javits Center, and the segments related to new Second Avenue Subway and its Queens extensions.

In essence the lack of direct subway service to/from Staten Island, within the southern and eastern-most sections of Queens, and the outskirts of Brooklyn are problems that have been KNOWN SINCE THE 1940's. They are "not new problems."

Robert Moses, the expansion of the car, the building of highways, the expansion of a suburban style of life, etc. all have their roots in events AFTER the 1940's even if some of the blueprints were created in the late 1920's.

My point was simple. Since none of this is a "new problem" - it does not "make sense" that the New York Times would leave out of an entire county that does not have direct subway service to Manhattan.

Of course, one can argue that a variety of transit improvements could or should be built - we do that all of the time here. It is a whole order of a different magnitude of an issue to think that "suddenly" certain parts of New York City lack subway service.

Mike



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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 1 13:47:10 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:50:31 2018.

The skip stop is actually better than a traditional express, everyone gets a faster 1 seat ride while the busiest stations get double frequency - just expand the timeframe. People don't work traditional 9-5 anymore, one hour one way during the rush hours doesn't do much for the non-standard commuter. Run the skip stop all day (and maybe even Saturday).

And stop making Alabama Av an all stop station!

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 13:49:59 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:50:31 2018.

J(15) had better express service through the 1960's. It still could not hold a candle to the ridership of the E train, with its shitty Arnine equipment.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 13:58:05 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 1 13:47:10 2018.

They crawl thru Alabama, and Crescent, and Cypress Hills at 10 MPH due to nasty curves. It hardly matters whether they stop of not. And when they skip a station, they slam on their brakes as though they were stopping. Then they hold outbound express J's at Essex Street to let M's cut in front, then at Myrtle Ave to let a local M overtake and cut across.

As I said earlier, the operative word here is "schlep", for a lot of reasons, always was, always will be. Nobody is going to be lured off the Woodhaven Blvd buses, or for that matter, the Q10 or Q37 to the IND by it.


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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:10:56 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 13:58:05 2018.

"....they slam on the brakes as if they're stopping" because that is how they are ordered to operate.

"Enter at normal speed and pass the leaving signal no more than 15 MPH".

It could be 10, retired for 4 years so my brain is fuzzy.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 17:16:21 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:10:56 2018.

Yet from what I have observed on other transit systems that utilize skip stop, they have no restrictions whatsoever on the speed of trains bypassing stations.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 18:22:11 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 17:16:21 2018.

Agreed. I was told that leaving at full speed "compromises the signal system" or words to that effect.

Don't ask me why, I was just an hourly constantly under the microscope.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Bklynsubwaybob on Mon Jan 1 18:34:34 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:10:56 2018.

I once wrote a t/o up for charging every timer on the Manhattan Bridge.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 18:35:30 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 18:22:11 2018.

My passenger recollection of CTA from the skip stop AB era is that we just ran right through. I would invite chicago motorman or others who actually worked there to correct me if wrong.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 1 19:40:39 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 10:04:25 2018.

Umm... Yes there is.
You need to take a walk along Broadway, and BedSty nabs closer to the J line to see.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jan 1 21:32:08 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 18:22:11 2018.

Let's assume the leader is stalled on the block just past the station. The signal at mid platform will be red with the tripper up. The signal at the station entrance will be yellow.

Suppose a T/O decides to ignore the yellow and go through the station at full throttle (55 mph). The mid station tripper will put the follower into emergency 300 feet from the leader. Stopping distance from 55 mph at 3 mph/sec is 756 feet - ouch!!

Train has to be moving less than 35 mph to stop in that distance. However, many station lights are much closer than 300' to the station exit. Also, not all emergency brakes are capable of 3 mph/sec. That's why even 35 mph won't guarantee avoiding a collision.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 23:10:02 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jan 1 21:32:08 2018.

Except at certain curved stations where the leaving signal canít be seen by a T/O entering the station, the aspect of the leaving signal should give the appropriate information to enable the T/O to slow down sufficiently if necessary.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 23:16:23 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bklynsubwaybob on Mon Jan 1 18:34:34 2018.

What do you mean by ďcharging?Ē Do you mean going up on the timer at a high speed and then jamming on the brakes till it cleared?

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Bklynsubwaybob on Tue Jan 2 19:20:21 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 23:16:23 2018.

That is correct.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by ftgreeneg on Tue Jan 2 23:38:46 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:10:56 2018.

You're correct it's 15.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 3 20:57:46 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 23:10:02 2018.

That's one problem with having a signal with only 2 aspects (Yellow/Red) in the middle of the station. The yellow does not tell the T/O what the leaving signal aspect is. It could be green, yellow or red. It's an accident waiting to happen.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 4 13:00:16 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 3 20:57:46 2018.

The IRT was the first to utilize the yellow station signal usually the signal entering the station although some stations had an additional signal in the middle of the station. The IND was the next division to utilize the same system while the BMT never had such a setup opting for a regular 3 aspect signal entering the station so that the M/M would know immediately the status of the leaving signal and the road ahead. For some reason after unification the B of T and the NYCTA lated chose to impose the IND signal setup on the BMT whenever new signaling was installed.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 4 13:02:21 2018, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Thu Jan 4 13:00:16 2018.

For some reason after unification the B of T and the NYCTA lated chose to impose the IND signal setup on the BMT whenever new signaling was installed.

There was a light bulb counter in their accounting office.

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