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| Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? (1417474) | |
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| (1417474) | |
Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016 The R train has long been a shuttle overnight between the last stop, 95 Street, and the 36 Street station where you can catch a D or N to Manhattan. Now the R will go between 95 Street and Whitehall Street at all times.Why? What's so special about Whitehall Street? Yes, it now has a free connection to the 1 train. But is that enough reason to send R trains there at all hours? The D and N trains are still running local in Brooklyn overnight, so that will give 4th Avenue passengers better service at 2am than they get at 2pm, with the D, N and R all stopping at these stations 24/7. This may have made sense if the D and/or N were becoming an overnight express train in Brooklyn. But I don't think that's happening. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:14:06 2016, in response to Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016. I should have said...>>>D and N trains are still running local in Brooklyn overnight. That will give 4th Avenue passengers better service at 2am than they get at 2pm, with all D, N and R trains stopping at these stations between 11pm and 6:30am.<<< |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Nov 26 20:18:23 2016, in response to Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016. The prime beneficiaries are Bay Ridge (south of 59th St) riders for whom MTA, for whatever reason(s), failed to provide well-timed connections with the N.If the R could just arrive at 59th St northbound and have an N come in right behind it, and vice versa going back southbound, this wouldn't have mattered. Somehow with MTA it's better to extend the R than just master the art of setting up the connection! But more than that, "R train extended to Whitehall St all times" is more politically friendly and attractive than "R trains will now definitely connect with N trains without long waits." |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 26 21:46:21 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Nov 26 20:18:23 2016. If anything, they should have returned the R service back to Queens 24/7.As a matter of fact,the N should have been the route for Second Avenue, with the Q staying in Astoria full time. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by The Silence on Sat Nov 26 22:02:59 2016, in response to Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016. Fewer transfers was part of the reasoning. Eliminating the need to transfers twice if your coming from a different direction than the N or D. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by zac on Sat Nov 26 22:06:32 2016, in response to Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016. I think this is to allow transfers from the 2/4 at Atlantic, the Q over the bridge at Dekalb, the F at 4th/9th and the A at Jay St. That's a lot of transfers that otherwise would require an intermediate train at late night when they are on 20 minute headways. It really opens up a lot of options. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 26 23:56:03 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 26 21:46:21 2016. Right before the Great Recession they were planning on making the full R 24/7 (and cutting back the G - that was going away no matter what happened). |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Nov 27 00:19:22 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 26 23:56:03 2016. When I was still working for the TA, the director of service planning stated outright that the MTA was committed to restoring full 24/7 R service to Queens as soon as the work in the 60 St tunnel (ongoing at the time) was completed. I’m retired 19 years now and there has not yet been any move to restore it. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 00:58:29 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Sun Nov 27 00:19:22 2016. "Restoring" 24/7 R service to Queens? I'm pretty sure that there has never been such service. From the time that the 11th Street Cut opened in the 1950s to the present, it has never seen 24/7 service, it has always shut down at night, hasn't it? At least it runs weekends nowadays, it used to be weekdays only. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by The Silence on Sun Nov 27 03:02:05 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 00:58:29 2016. After Archer Ave opened, the R ran 179th-95th full time |
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Posted by Lance52 on Sun Nov 27 08:13:13 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by The Silence on Sun Nov 27 03:02:05 2016. To expand on this, the R ran 24/7 between Queens Blvd and 95 Street from 1988.12.11 - 1990.09.30. The start of the late night R shuttle was also when the line was cut back from 179 Street at all times except rush hours. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 08:48:41 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 00:58:29 2016. Hmm, OK. I was wrong. But I know the R to 179th St. didn't last very long. Six months? Did overnight service from the BMT to the Queens IND last any longer than that? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 09:25:01 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 08:48:41 2016. OK, Lance52 answered my question. I guess I shouldn't leave a message displayed in my browser for hours and then answer it without checking for other answers, including refreshing the index page. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 27 10:14:20 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by The Silence on Sun Nov 27 03:02:05 2016. I wasn't aware that the R ever operated past Contibental. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 27 11:46:52 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 00:58:29 2016. Once upon a time the (RR) train (Broadway Local) Ran from Astoria to Ft. Hamilton. It was I presume 24/7 since at both ends of the route it ran by itself. Besides, you always needed a local on Broadway.The railroad was DESIGNED for this, as the towers could be fleeted for this service and the operators could take a nap. Now with two exits at both ends of Broadway is seems to me that BWAY EXPRESS should use the 63rd Strret Tunnel and the Broadway Local should use the 60th street tunnel. It would look something like this: R Bway Lcl Astoria to Ft. Hamilton 24/7 Q Bway Exp 96th Street to CI via Brighton 24/7 N Bway Exp Forest Hills to CI via Sea Beach 16/7 [Via 63rd St Tunnel] T 6th Av Lcl 96th St to WTC 16/7 ROAR |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by R30A on Sun Nov 27 12:03:09 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 27 10:14:20 2016. It did. At first full time, later rush hours only. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Nov 27 12:33:39 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 27 11:46:52 2016. The R alone can't handle Astoria without vastly over supplying Bay Ridge. Ah, OK, supplement with the W (or just call them short-turning Rs).Worse, however, you've just killed the connection between Queens Blvd and 59th/Lex. Lots of current R passengers get off there. And you've vastly overprovisioned the 96th Street spur. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 27 14:08:37 2016, in response to Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016. What's so special about Whitehall StreetIt's a convenient terminal. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Nov 27 15:22:06 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 27 14:08:37 2016. It is really the only place trains coming from Bkln can be convenient;y turned without going a lot farther north. 57 St can not be used once the SAS open thanks to the mTA’s poor planning and City Hall isn’t an option since the middle tks at Canal can’t hold 600 ft trains. After that the next place trains could be turned is T/Sq on the exp tks so that basically leaves only Whitehall if the purpose of extending the line is to provide passengers at Metrotech and Barclay with direct service to Bay Ridge. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Nov 27 15:46:30 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Sun Nov 27 15:22:06 2016. 57 St can not be used once the SAS open thanks to the mTA’s poor planningHow so? Even if you could reach 96th St from the local tracks, it would still be nuts to move the Q from the express tracks to the local tracks just to be able to pass terminating R trains. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Nov 27 17:11:46 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by AlM on Sun Nov 27 15:46:30 2016. However, during the midnight hours when a shortened R would be running, both the Q and the N are on the local. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by BusRider on Sun Nov 27 17:14:15 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Sun Nov 27 15:22:06 2016. Are you referring to that switch north of 42nd? What's wrong with north of 34th during overnight hours? |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:25:25 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Nov 26 20:18:23 2016. Better coordination between the R overnight shuttle and the N would make a lot of sense, rather than running the R to Whitehall St. at all times.Or maybe the N or D should run express at all times in Brooklyn. As I said, it really doesn't make sense for all three lines to make local stops overnight on 4th Avenue. Riders at Prospect Avenue get nine trains each way between 2 and 3am. They don't get nine trains between 2 and 3pm. The D is express in Manhattan 24/7. So if the R goes to Whitehall, why not make the D a 24/7 express in Brooklyn too? |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Nov 27 18:40:40 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:25:25 2016. I can repeat common scenarios that happened over and over and over which made for ONE HOUR rides from Atlantic to Bay Ridge with the shuttle. Which is severely unreasonable:This was all prior to November 2016: (1) D arrives at DeKalb 1 minute behind schedule, but can still get to 36th on time for us to catch the R shuttle. But DeKalb decides to give holding lights to the D for 3-4 minutes to wait for an N coming thru the tunnel. The D then goes first, but it doesn't matter. It gets to 36th at approx 1:56am, which is now too late to catch the 1:56am R shuttle, since the R shuttle was sent out at 1:54am. Wait for the next cycle of D and N trains, then finally catch 2:16am R shuttle. (2) Transfer at Atlantic from IRT. Just miss both N and D trains approx 1:22am and 1:24am. Wait until 1:47am for next cycle of trains, which got delayed by a few minutes (could be track work, could be garbage train, could be the holding lights at DeKalb). Don't arrive until 1:56am, just miss R shuttle that is sent out early. Wait until 2:16am for next shuttle, pull in at 2:29am to Bay Ridge. That's 1 hour 4 minutes from Atlantic to Bay Ridge which is simply crazy. I think the R to Whitehall is more than a fair compromise late nights. We're not running it all the way to 71st Ave. Just Whitehall to 95th, so the R can connect with virtually ever other train (late night A, F, G, Q, 2, and 4 are all added connections now). There is a considerable time savings - up to 40 minutes saved if you choose the F instead of D at Broadway-Lafayette and just catch an R at Jay St now (new service), versus waiting 20 minutes for a delayed D that just misses an R train at 36th resulting in an additional 20 minute wait at 36th (old service). |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:05:53 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Nov 27 18:40:40 2016. It must be frustrating when a D or N arrives only a minute after the R shuttle pulls out of 36 Street. But can't they simply hold the R until the D or N arrive? The R shuttle is only 8 stations long. Who's on that shuttle train saying "We're supposed to leave NOW! I don't care if the D or N is still a few minutes away."I'm pretty sure the S shuttle at Broad Channel waits for the A to arrive. If the A is delayed, the S just waits. Since there are only two tracks at Broad Channel, one inbound, one outbound, the S CANNOT pull out ahead of the A. It's waiting on a special track just north of Broad Channel, till the A clears the station. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Mon Nov 28 08:06:05 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 27 11:46:52 2016. Where's my brown R? |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 28 08:15:38 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Nov 27 00:58:29 2016. Yes there was, prior to 1992. 1988-1992 the R train was the only train that ran on Hillside Ave.For many years the RR/R was the ONLY train to serve the Broadway BMT at night. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Nov 28 09:32:27 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:25:25 2016. The express tracks on 4th Ave in Brooklyn are kept clear overnight for work trains going to and from the 38th street yard. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 14:26:16 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by BusRider on Sun Nov 27 17:14:15 2016. It would be the height of stupidity to shortline a train just one stop short of the principal transfer point of Times Sq. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 28 14:47:10 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 14:26:16 2016. It would be the height of stupidity to shortline a train just one stop short of the principal transfer point of Times Sq.Like the G at Court Sq? |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 15:10:38 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:05:53 2016. Th R shuttle can do the same as the Rock Pk shuttle. The problem is that the so called management in charge of the area don’t have enough sense to issue any sort of standing order that the shuttle MUST be held for a late arriving mainline (only up to a reasonable time of course). The only circumstance under which a shuttle has to leave on time is during a single tk operation between 59 and 95 since the clearances at both ends are so tight that the first late shuttle throws the entire shuttle schedule off for the entire night. Under normal operation shuttles can and should be held. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Nov 28 15:15:02 2016, in response to Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by nh153 on Sat Nov 26 20:10:04 2016. My question, exactly. Why have 3 locals on 4th Ave? At least, run the "Dor "N" as an overnight express! |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 15:47:01 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Mon Nov 28 08:06:05 2016. Can’t run brown Rs at the moment since all trains on the R Line are 600 ft long which won’t fit on Nassau St and it would be operationally unfeasible to have a few select 480 ft trains assigned to the line. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 15:52:39 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 28 08:15:38 2016. I don’t know how many years, but at least in 1983/84 the RR was the only train running on Bway overnight and the N was a shuttle between 36 and Stl. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 16:07:17 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 28 14:47:10 2016. Except that in the case of the Bway subway, there is a relay location N/O T/Sq where R trains can be turned without severely impacting on through trains which is not the case at Qns Plz. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 16:15:16 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Nov 28 15:15:02 2016. Work trains. There is often a constant move of work trains and other car transfers that utilize the 4 Av exp tks so it wouldn’t make sense to schedule nighttime exp service only to have the express trains sporadically rerouted around work trains and other transfer moves. |
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Posted by BusRider on Mon Nov 28 16:52:51 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 14:26:16 2016. I agree, that's why I was clarifying. So Times Square is ideal but due to the N & Q both being local at that time of night, its not operationally feasible? Therefore, Whitehall gets the job done as quick as possible. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 17:02:10 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by BusRider on Mon Nov 28 16:52:51 2016. Also, Whitehall is far enough that you've had the opportunity to transfer not just from the D or the N, but also the 1, 2, 4, A, F, G, and Q. All you get in addition by going up to 42nd are the 7, E, J, and L. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by BusRider on Mon Nov 28 17:06:57 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 17:02:10 2016. Definitely Fulton is better, I was just asking. Thanks! |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 28 18:55:39 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Mon Nov 28 08:06:05 2016. Wait 30 more years.That's how long it was between the ending of the K and the beginning of the Orange M |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Nov 28 19:45:31 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 27 11:46:52 2016. No yard at either proposed R terminal. I'm sure one could work around that, but it could be inefficient. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Nov 28 19:48:21 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Nov 27 18:40:40 2016. "That's 1 hour 4 minutes from Atlantic to Bay Ridge which is simply crazy."One could probably walk that distance in a comparable amount of time. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Nov 28 19:49:43 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 15:52:39 2016. I believe that became the case in August of 1977, when major service cuts were implemented. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 28 20:23:28 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 15:52:39 2016. Yup, the B and N were only shuttles from 36th. To get anywhere from the West End to 6th Ave, it required 2 transfers. |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Nov 28 20:45:32 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Nov 28 19:45:31 2016. Every time he proposes that, then someone tells him it is no good, there is no response. A yard move from 95 is very time consuming with the switchman being away for hours............which means you need additional switchmen which increases operating costs. |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Nov 28 21:24:16 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by BusRider on Mon Nov 28 17:06:57 2016. I have complained over and over about past Bay Ridge service, but this time I have to say the MTA finally got it right. I'm one to give credit where credit is due.Finally evening service to Bay Ridge has been equalized with other trains, and the late night shuttle is a fair compromise to run 95th-Whitehall. That means I can now take virtually any train and transfer to the R train, without having to wait for a delayed D or N that just misses the shuttle by a minute. It is a major major improvement! |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Nov 28 23:06:06 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Nov 28 19:48:21 2016. It's about 5.4 miles, says Google, so it would take almost two hours to walk.Of course, a transit trip should take a lot less than half the time it takes to walk.... |
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Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Nov 29 02:22:50 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Nov 28 14:47:10 2016. Exactly. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Nov 29 07:28:54 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Nov 27 11:46:52 2016. Your T train has to make a switching move at West 4th. Won't that gum things up? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Nov 29 07:30:23 2016, in response to Re: Overnight R Train to Whitehall? Why?, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 28 18:55:39 2016. 33 years 10 months... :) |
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