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| (1409223) | |
Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 08:24:48 2016 
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Sep 19 09:11:11 2016, in response to Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 08:24:48 2016. Yeah. Notice how the neighborhood is starting to be cleared for Camden Sq. Park.You know that time machine question...."If you could go back to a time and place..."? For me it would be Sand St. During the height of the BMT era. |
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| (1409227) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 09:43:59 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Sep 19 09:11:11 2016. I agree. I would have LOVED to explore Sands St. station! |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 19 12:19:57 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Sep 19 09:11:11 2016. Parkes Cadman. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 19 13:17:09 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Sep 19 09:11:11 2016. So I took you advice and... And I'm tired, but you know how tiring time travel is.       |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Sep 19 14:25:15 2016, in response to Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 08:24:48 2016. Where's that? |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Sep 19 14:26:32 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Sep 19 14:25:15 2016. Where's that?Sands St. station - Google Search |
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| (1409292) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 19 18:59:38 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 19 13:17:09 2016. Wowee! |
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| (1409294) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Mon Sep 19 19:04:41 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Sep 19 13:17:09 2016. Wow so fascinating to see such extensive infrastructure that used to be there while no trace of it can be found in the area today. (looks to be bigger than the Coney Isl complex). Cool pix. |
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| (1409300) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Mon Sep 19 19:36:52 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by ftgreeneg on Mon Sep 19 19:04:41 2016. And that the area went from a bustling center of commerce and transit to a deserted hole between Downtown Brooklyn and DUMBO.I walked down Washington Street (Cadman Plaza East) on my way to work for five years. It's hard to believe all the commotion of this place until it was renewed urbanly out of existence. |
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| (1409301) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Sep 19 19:54:08 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by displaced angeleno on Mon Sep 19 19:36:52 2016. Yeah, but just try throwing a frisbee around the station. :-)Don't know how heavily used the current park is now, considering its supposed to be an "oasis". |
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| (1409307) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Sep 19 20:22:40 2016, in response to Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 08:24:48 2016. Wow-- amazing. That was some terminal. And all gone. |
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| (1409311) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Mon Sep 19 20:39:50 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by displaced angeleno on Mon Sep 19 19:36:52 2016. Yeah besides the courthouses over there the area is dead now. I supposed the park is nice but i wouldn't want to spend to much time there inhaling the smog from the bridge and BQE traffic...lol |
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| (1409328) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 07:22:57 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 09:43:59 2016. Here is a URL for a Sands St. station diagram below that can help to understand the layout of the complex. It was posted in subchat awhile back. http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/bbterm09.jpg If you have, or can find Greller's first book, "The Brooklyn Elevated," towards the end of the book, there's an interior shot of Sands St. from one of the two lower platforms. The stairways to the loop platforms, appear to go up to an intermediate level; to what was, called a "gallery" (a walkway), in the diagram, between the arriving and departing loop platforms. Also, on the Kings County terminal platform (station on the stub to Fulton Ferry), there is a wide and massive enclosed walkway between those platforms and the Sands St. station URL for photo: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/15790232512581590/filePointer/44510793833213976/fodoid/44510793833213968/imageType/MEDIUM/inlineImage/true/img_132302.jpg From the diagram it looks like this transfer walkway from the KC terminal station, enters Sands St. passes over the outbound lower level track to connect with the intermediate level gallery. If this arrangement is correct, transfer passengers, entering Sands St. station from the walkway, could either walk straight ahead to the intermediate level gallery, for stairs up to the loop platforms, or turn right or left to go downstairs to the main platforms for Fulton St., Myrtle Ave., & Lexington Ave. trains. I was also was never completely clear on what were the inbound and outbound trolley arrangements at Sands St. If they stopped at the station, where were these platforms? Googling for images, I found this first photo of the inbound trolley tracks. URL: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/15790232512581590/filePointer/43665862757570107/fodoid/43665862757570096/imageType/LARGE/inlineImage/true/Sands%2520street%2520from%2520the%2520northwest%2520side.jpg So, for Manhattan bound trolleys, there was no platform at Sands street. The trolley just ramped on a row outside the station, towards the approach to the bridge. The outbound trolley, from Manhattan did have a station stop at Sands St. which looks like the outermost platform and its track, that is next to the outbound elevated track to the left of its platform (looking back towards the city). URL: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/fileSendAction/fcType/0/fcOid/15790232512581590/filePointer/44510793461276276/fodoid/44510793461276267/imageType/MEDIUM/inlineImage/true/sands%25204.jpg One would think that there would have been BRT company photos (glass plate negatives) taken of various interior views of Sands St. which would better explain it - if they were made at all, they are long gone probably. Loop platform interior photos must be very rare, as well as photos of the fare control area, below the lower level elevated platforms - these would probably show stairways to the outbound trolley platform outside of the fare control area, beyond the turnstiles or punch ticket control points years earlier. So yes, Sands St. station in 1936 would have been one hell of an interesting place to explore! |
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| (1409349) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 13:41:28 2016, in response to Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Mon Sep 19 08:24:48 2016. IIRC, in one of the books covering Boston's transit history, a photo of Sullivan Square station, on the Main Line Elevated, (former original Orange line) was captioned as being the largest rapid transit facility anyshere.Guess they'd hever seen Brooklyn's Sands Street. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Sep 20 15:17:51 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 13:41:28 2016. I think I have a copy oh that book and I'll check. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 20 16:56:44 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Sep 19 20:22:40 2016. Unfortunately, even if the Fulton St el had been rebuilt to hold steel cars for its entire length, it’s likely that the Sands St complex would have eventually been torn down anyhow. Under the dual contract proposals, the Fulton St El was to have been routed into the subway S/O Dekalb via the Ashland Pl connection and Myrtle/Lex would have been shortlined at a new stub terminal to be built at the intersection of Flatbush Av Extension and Myrtle where a direct passenger transfer was to be built to the Myrtle Av (Gold St) station of the BMT subway. The eventual aim was to remove el trains from the Bkln Br and along with that the equally magnificent Park Row terminal would have been demolished as well. |
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| (1409391) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 20 17:16:12 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 13:41:28 2016. While I don’t doubt the veracity of the article, I fail to see how Sullivan Sq could have been the largest rapid transit facility anywhere since only one rapid transit line actually used it. There were several trolley lines that did also use it of course, but I can’t see it holding a candle to Sands St which had 5 rapid transit lines, Fulton, Lex, Myrtle, 5 Ave and Culver as well as at least 4 (that I can think of) trolley lines sharing it. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Sep 20 18:08:37 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Sep 19 09:11:11 2016. For me it would be opening day on the IRT, 10.27.1904. |
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| (1409421) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 20 19:46:18 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Sep 19 09:11:11 2016. Dont believe there is any time I would like to revisit...but if I had a opportunity,it would be a chance to talk to my parents again....take one last ride on a Eastern Division train with my dad. |
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| (1409444) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 20 23:12:05 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 07:22:57 2016. Any photos of the post-1932 turnback tracks, just west of the station and before the Bridge? In late 1932, the two center tracks were modified to turn back trains, so the old High St loop could be closed on March 10th, 1933. |
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| (1409449) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 23:44:56 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 20 17:16:12 2016. I think the book might have been the soft cover "Rapid Transit [Lines] in Boston." It was stapled together and published during the 1960s.The companion volume was "Rapid Transit Cars in Boston." Same format: softcover with pages stapled together. I agree with you. The author or whomever did the captions,very likely had no knowledge of the Sands St. complex to have written that caption for Sullivan Sq. Even if he was referring to the size of the building structure alone, Sands St. was still much bigger. |
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| (1409470) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 08:23:07 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 23:44:56 2016. There are numerous pictures of Sullivan Square in the book, "When Boston Rode the El," by Frank Cheney and Anthony Michael Sammarco. There are a few picture sin the book "Boston in Motion," by the same authors.Here are two pictures:   |
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| (1409513) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 21 14:10:31 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 20 23:12:05 2016. Thanks for giving the actual date of closure of the High St. (Sands st. station) loop!I have not come across any photos yet of this turnback. I'll provide a URL if I am able to find any. |
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| (1409514) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 21 14:11:27 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 20 19:46:18 2016. I understand. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 21 14:21:12 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 08:23:07 2016. Thanks for posting. I have When Boston rode the el, packed away in storage. I'll have to find Boston in motion at some point.These are interesting period views - especially the first one. I've never seen an ariel view which shows the full extent of this station trolley ROW's, shops and storage tracks. I've seen uncolorized photos of the second one, in a souvenir photo booklet of Boston published at that time. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 14:47:56 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 21 14:10:31 2016. Sands St. in 1895:
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 15:14:46 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Sep 20 18:08:37 2016. I'd love to be swept back to the time when the massive Queensboro Plaza station was at its busiest. Flushing, Astoria & 2nd Ave Elevated trains running at the same time. Admiring the engineering that went into the construction would be one thing. The other would be checking out all the different equiptment that passed thru.Wheres H.G Wells when you need him??:) |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 17:00:19 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 15:14:46 2016. I'd love to see Broadway Junction at its peak back in the day. |
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| (1409530) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 21 17:05:16 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Sep 20 18:08:37 2016. For me, the rush-hour Manhattan Elevated South Ferry station, with the Forney locomotives, prior to electrification. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Sep 21 20:52:56 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Tue Sep 20 23:44:56 2016. Was the Sands St. building bigger? I'm not so sure about that - Sands St. was mostly a through station, albeit multiple level, whereas Sullivan Sq. looks like a terminal along the lines of Coney Island. Sands St. probably had a lot more traffic going through it, though. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 20:53:12 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 17:00:19 2016. Always wondered...what would be considered the bigger NYC El Junction (in its prime of course) B'way Or QBP. Factoring in Lines & equiptment, tph, etc. that passed thru.Different sources have different opinions. I'd say its close |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Sep 21 21:06:23 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 20:53:12 2016. Broadway Junction, IMO. More tracks, more switches and connections between the tracks, including the ones to the yard, but I'm including the part of the Fulton El north of Atlantic Ave. Omit that, and QBP gets the edge in through tracks, but BJ still gets the edge in complexity. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 21:19:16 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by 3-9 on Wed Sep 21 21:06:23 2016. IAWTP. Although to see the El coming over the Triboro and into QBP...dayum! Would that have been something to see. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 23:13:19 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 21:19:16 2016. "...Although to see the El coming over the Triboro..."Me thinks you mean Queensboro... |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 22 01:45:55 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 14:47:56 2016. Thanks for posting. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 22 01:57:56 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 21 17:05:16 2016. Going back that far to see the Forneys - that would be pretty good!I would like to time travel back to 1936. El systems in NY and Bklyn were still pretty much complete to ride - includes 6th ave. Could ride (if not in storage), the Green Hornet & the Zephyr, Culver el to Coney Island, The IRT subway had its entire pre-war fleet, plus Commposites & MUDC's on the els. Riding the IND - to see all the ROW turnouts/ bellmouths for the second system prior to being bricked up or filled in many years later. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 22 02:38:16 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by 3-9 on Wed Sep 21 20:52:56 2016. Sands St. building is definately larger east to west, and interior track arrangments are much rmore complex. Six rapid transit tracks (+ six platforms) on two levels, 4 main level, 2 on the upper loop, plus two trolley tracks (for a number of route services).Per Randy O, - serviced 5 rapid transit lines (not including Sea Beach & West End lines; el cars running at grade & feeding into the 5th ave. line.) plus at least 4 trolley lines It is also larger including the Kings County el station (with 3 or 4? through tracks to merge further east with Fulton line, plus one terminal pocket track), which is part of/ adjacent to Sands st. East of Sands St. was the wide ROW with at least 4 tracks (more maybe?) plus the Bridge yard, and branches/ grade crossings on the ROW for Myrtle etc. and Fulton lines. Sands st. was definately busier with much more rapid transit traffic. Sullivan Sq. may have taken up more physical space, but that's only if the yards and layup tracks & turning loops are included (and that might not even "hold a candle to" the yards/ shops at 155th St.). Inside that spacious building, transit/ trolleys were all on one level. There was only one 2 track rapid transit line, with a number of paralell tracks for trolley "berths" on either side of it. The large exterior loop for el trains included what looks like yard leads. Trolleys entered and left via two ramps (it looks like), one to the north, the secon to the east. I'd take Sands St. complex any time :) busier and much more exciting for operational action. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Sep 22 04:53:05 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 23:13:19 2016. Methinks you are correct! |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Thu Sep 22 12:34:23 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by displaced angeleno on Mon Sep 19 19:36:52 2016. fantastic PHOTOS THANKS FOR SHARING, BTW any color photos of this structure I'm thinking maybe a green color. Karl |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Thu Sep 22 12:40:01 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 17:00:19 2016. I'd like to go back to watch the Forney steam engines on the elevated and watch the conversion over to electric operation. Karl |
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| (1409621) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 22 13:12:53 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 21 14:10:31 2016. Go to the Brooklyn Eagle website. Find the Feb 22nd, 1949 edition and go to page 22. The "Old Timers" article on the left side has this, as well as other historical tidbits, as well. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 22 16:36:31 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Wed Sep 21 14:21:12 2016. From the look of it it seems that while there were a large number of streetcar lines using the facility, there was still only one true rapid transit line using it. |
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| (1409699) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 22 19:06:19 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by randyo on Thu Sep 22 16:36:31 2016. Yes, that's true. Trolley "berths" were on both sides, as I understand it, but only one two track rapid transit line serviced it.When I lived there ('72-'92), the trolley berths were currently served by buses. The single transit line continued north, then east over the river to Everett. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Sep 22 21:30:40 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Thu Sep 22 19:06:19 2016. In its original form, Sullivan Square Terminal contained 10 tracks for trolleys and one elevated track for the El trains. The lower level contained a double track loop for trolleys. The alterations made in 1912 included a new inbound loading platform for El trains and a new loop for trolleys.Immediately behind the Terminal was car shop building, which maintained El cars on the upper level and trolley cars on the lower level. |
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| (1409728) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 22 22:04:50 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 21 21:19:16 2016. Agreed, that area has the potential for a lot of great shots. |
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| (1409743) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Sep 23 00:33:55 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Thu Sep 22 21:30:40 2016. Thanks for these details!I have the Mainline el, Headlights issue. It includes plans and diagrams of Sullivan Sq. I'm pretty sure the lower level trolley loop you mention, is included in these plans. I did not know (or remember) that the shops had a lower level to service the trolley cars. I will have to go back and review plans for pre and post 1912 layout. The el shop buildings, at least one of the loops, and storage layup tracks were still there in the 70s when I first began riding the orange line (I took one or two b & w photos of it, on the northern section's last day of of service) (photos, like my other stuff, packed away in storage) The through tracks to Everett, were the outer two tracks next to the storage tracks south of the shops. The train made a sharp right turn northeast out of S. Sq. and then entered the outbound track. The speed was very slow over this section of tracks. I was told why, by someone up in Boston, but I don't remember specifics right now. Did you ride both sections of the original Orange line before the el's closure? (1985 I think for the south section; 1977 or '78 (?) for the north) |
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| (1409748) | |
Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 07:58:44 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Express Rider on Fri Sep 23 00:33:55 2016. The shop buildings were used until April 1975, IIRC. Yep, I had ridden both sections of the Orange. Do you remember the TV show St. Elsewhere? That was the Orange line that ran in front of the "hospital." |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Sep 23 12:41:51 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Sep 21 20:53:12 2016. Until the 14th Street Line was connected, I would lean to QBP. Afterwards, the Broadway Junction complex. Broadway Junction was the more remarkable because it connected each line* to East New York Yard complex.*Broadway/Lex lines to the west, Broadway Jamaica to the east, Fulton Street in both directions, and Canarsie. OK, I'll concede not 14th Street--it would have required a reverse move. If the Crosstown Line had gone into QBP as originally planned, ask me again. |
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Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 23 13:56:25 2016, in response to Re: Terminals at Sands St. station, 1936, posted by Dave on Fri Sep 23 07:58:44 2016. I read somewhere that it was the Red Line. |
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