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| Of Roads and Rails (1403645) | |
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Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 17:53:11 2016 http://www.qchron.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/of-rails-and-roads/article_d94a0989-637c-51f9-b91b-6d0625e6d755.htmlI am posting this in both the subway and bus forums since it relates to both. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 28 19:31:05 2016, in response to Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 17:53:11 2016. I am posting thisWho cares? Instead of posting stuff no one cares about, why not simply respond to all the posts that have been made in reply to your earlier posts? |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 22:45:30 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 28 19:31:05 2016. You don't speak for all SubChat readers.And I won't waste my time carrying on useless conversations with you or R30A because unlike you, I have more important things to do with my life. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 23:04:26 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 28 19:31:05 2016. Weren't you the one who asked for new material?I oblige and you are not happy. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jul 28 23:17:56 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 23:04:26 2016. Maybe. But if I did, this is not what I wanted. Maybe you should go back to school. Learn about planning. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jul 28 23:27:42 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 22:45:30 2016. I pretty much do, based on the historical record here. Show me otherwise.I doubt you have anything better do. I really doubt it. But surprise me. Do tell us about these supposed better things you have to do. LOL. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by displaced angeleno on Thu Jul 28 23:42:47 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 28 19:31:05 2016. I disagree with some of the content of his op-ed, but I'd like to hear more about SBS ridership and operating costs. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jul 28 23:50:16 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by displaced angeleno on Thu Jul 28 23:42:47 2016. That's great. The MTA/NYCT/NYCDOT can help you with that. BrooklynBus cannot. I'm glad to hear you disagree with some of the content in his post, as do I'm sure most of the people here. Thank you. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 00:19:36 2016, in response to Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 28 17:53:11 2016. We can have longer buses and fare prepayment without the added cost of SBS, which requires inspectors to ensure fares are being paid.How do you envision fare prepayment being put into effect without fare inspectors? |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:03:58 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jul 28 23:17:56 2016. Coming from someone who knows nothing about Planning. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:13:53 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 00:19:36 2016. Well because it was once done, but you wouldn't remember. It is not something that was invented with SBS.In the 1950s and 60s, at very heavy transfer locations such as Eastern Parkway and Utica during the evening rush hour, a fare box was placed on the sidewalk near the rear door with an inspector allowing two door boarding which cut boarding time in half. Today without cash and with contactless payment coming, it would be even simpler. It could be done at selected locations like major terminals and would be more cost effective than constantly increasing the number of fare inspectors each time you add an SBS route. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:21:08 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by displaced angeleno on Thu Jul 28 23:42:47 2016. Each SBS staff summary asks the MTA to approve an additional $2 or $3 million in operating costs per year. With the exception of the Bx41 and Bx12, ridership has gone done on all other SBS routes with the exception of the S79 which doesn't include the local S78. When both routes are considered together ridership is not that different from before SBS.As to whether the cost of the inspectors pays for itself, the MTA has not released that information. I am also unsure if TAB revenue even goes to the MTA. And ignore whatever Terrapin says. He is ill and doesn't know what he speaks. His aim is to criticize everything I post because I was a transportation planner and he is jealous that he never could become one. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Jul 29 12:29:04 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:13:53 2016. The honor system doesn't work without enforcement. That's a simple fact. If someone thought they were never going to get caught, they'd never pay and we'd be stuck with one door boarding agaib.the enforcement teams don't need to be everywhere at once, it's the THREAT of their presence. the idea that they'll show up at any moment. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 13:23:05 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by The Silence on Fri Jul 29 12:29:04 2016. Never disagreed with that. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 13:23:05 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by The Silence on Fri Jul 29 12:29:04 2016. Never disagreed with that. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 29 13:31:12 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:21:08 2016. As to whether the cost of the inspectors pays for itself, the MTA has not released that informationThat leans towards "no". And ignore whatever Terrapin says. He is ill and doesn't know what he speaks. His aim is to criticize everything I post because I was a transportation planner and he is jealous that he never could become one He does need help. Or just a banning. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 29 13:32:05 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by The Silence on Fri Jul 29 12:29:04 2016. Either that or people will get sick of them, making it too dangerous to do their jobs.No matter what, it results in the lowest fare recovery ratio. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jul 29 16:14:22 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:13:53 2016. Utica/E Pky wasn’t the only place that such a system was used. I recall on the 5 Av buses in Manhattan, a supervisor would be at certain locations in the PM rush such as 34 St and 42 St with a hand fare recorder where passengers would deposit their fare and enter the rear doors of the buses. After the procedure was dropped, and possibly after the creation of MABSTOA, the NYCTA acquired some of the fare recorders and adapted them to accept tokens and used them for on board fare collections on the Myrtle Av el. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 17:36:27 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:13:53 2016. So your solution to the cost of inspectors and TVMs is to have inspectors and TVMs. But you propose to do so on a way which provides none of the benefits of POP at intermediate stops. If a crowd appears at a stop away from your major transfer station then you're stuck with everyone boarding through the front door. At best your solution would only be as good as POP at a few locations an a route while costing nearly as much as a full POP setup. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 29 18:19:59 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:21:08 2016. ridership has gone done on all other SBS routes with the exception of the S79 which doesn't include the local S78. When both routes are considered together ridership is not that different from before SBS.But has SBS resulted in a significant improvement in the trip for the riders? |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 29 18:22:02 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by randyo on Fri Jul 29 16:14:22 2016. Interesting! |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 18:46:26 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 29 18:19:59 2016. We do not know because the MTA is only looking at bus travel times and ignoring passenger trip times. Long distance riders are definitely helped, however the average local bus trip is only 2.3 mikes, a fraction of the average subwatpy ride.If it takes you there extra minutes to walk to an SBS stop and three extra minutes after you get off and the bus portion of the trip is five minutes shorter because of SBS, you tell me if the rider is better off. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 18:49:04 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by randyo on Fri Jul 29 16:14:22 2016. Never said Utica was the only place. Heard it was also in place at Church and Nostrand and other places.The point is that this is not a new idea and it makes a lot of sense to target these high transfer points and terminals which can be done without SBS. Most think you must have SBS to have fare prepayment. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 18:57:03 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 17:36:27 2016. That's not what I am saying.What I said was that it is not necessary to convert a route to SBS if only one or two stops are heavily utilized. Example at Kingsborough College you have 1500 passengers getting on in a single hour. Some posted at the door to accept fares would cut boarding times in half without the expense of converting the routes to SBS and would be cost efficient. A full pop set up cost millions with four machines at each stop each costing $50,000 plus you have the cost of the inspectors. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jul 29 19:02:24 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 18:46:26 2016. Best people to ask would be the riders themselves, if SBS has been worth it. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 20:30:15 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 29 13:32:05 2016. Either that or people will get sick of them, making it too dangerous to do their jobs.Nice, advocating violence against law enforcement if the fare evaders disagree with the laws they've broken. Way to show your support for the police. No matter what, it results in the lowest fare recovery ratio. As with everything else you post, this is factually incorrect. The Bx12's fare evasion fell from 13% before the start of SBS in 2008 to 6.1% in 2010, well below the bus system average of 8.6% fare evasion. They also became the safest lines in the NYCT system. Neither the M15 SBS nor the Bx12 SBS having a reported felony assault, harassment of a driver, or vandalism incident during the period following the introduction of offboard fare payment. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 20:42:15 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 18:57:03 2016. What I said was that it is not necessary to convert a route to SBS if only one or two stops are heavily utilized.But at most "major transfer points" you're going to have multiple buses loading at the same time. That's going to require several personnel to cover each location. So your argument that it might be cheaper is bunk, because you'll end up employing just as many enforcement personnel to get far more modest improvements than POP creates. A full pop set up cost millions with four machines at each stop each costing $50,000 plus you have the cost of the inspectors. You think the device your fare inspector is going to be using to accept fares at the rear door is going to be free? And again, you pay for the fare inspectors, you pay for their handheld TVM device, and then you lock them into one position so they cannot reduce fare evasion and improve boarding at all stops as a full POP setup would. So long as we're playing your game of hypotheticals onboard TVMs would also be lower cost, especially on local routes with more stops. But instead of following worldwide best practices, you insist on dredging up failed solutions from the 1950s. But I guess that's all an automobile advocate such as yourself can muster. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 29 21:10:00 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 18:57:03 2016. or one could put 'card' readers (clipper, ventra etc) at rear doors of ALL ofthe buses and declare POP without buying a single VM to deploy streetside--this is what SF Muni has done. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jul 29 21:30:55 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 29 12:03:58 2016. Don't aggravate yourself with his venom. He's one of the main reasons that a lot of people have left SubChat! right now, he's home observing the Sabbath. Like that's gonna make him a better person! |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 21:31:34 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 29 21:10:00 2016. Shhhh, that's not what they would have done in the 1950s, so it must be wrong to our automobile-uber-alles poster here. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 29 22:27:25 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 21:31:34 2016. In the 50s Pittsburgh did P(ay)A(s)Y(ou)E(nter inbound, and P(ay)A(s)Y(ou)L(eave) on streetcars in order to soak up homeward bound crowds in the CBD or at plants/factories, while riders in residential areas were always incremental. FWIW they have recently abolished that system, go figure.Putting TVMs out all over is costly; migrating as many riders as possible to stored value cards/passes solves most of the issue. SF was already 2/3 non-cash payments several years ago. In the SF Bay Area, one can put value on clipper at Walgreens among others as well at TVMs in BART and MUNI stations. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 30 11:04:47 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 20:42:15 2016. Which would be cheaper? To have an inspector at each route at Jamaica Terminal to permit two door boarding at PM rush hours when they are most needed or to convert every bus route using the terminal into SBS? |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 30 11:05:53 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 29 21:31:34 2016. No that would work too. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 30 11:38:09 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 30 11:04:47 2016. May as well bring back conductors. Inspectors are de facto conductors, especially if you need a lot of them; but in the old British Isles system with conductors, there used to be just one traveling inspector per route. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 30 11:39:37 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 29 22:27:25 2016. Putting TVMs out all over is costly; migrating as many riders as possible to stored value cards/passes solves most of the issueNo, it complicates it. The more you push cashless, the less freedom. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 31 18:35:30 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 30 11:38:09 2016. However, at major transfer of loading points, some sort of inspector/starter/dispatcher or whatever title would probably be needed anyhow to insure evenness of service and on time performance so such an individual might as well assist in fare collection as well as was done in the old 5 Av Coach days. |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 31 18:47:11 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 31 18:35:30 2016. Oh, the horror. asking an inspector to work "out of title" collecting fares? |
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Re: Of Roads and Rails |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 1 13:06:06 2016, in response to Re: Of Roads and Rails, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 31 18:47:11 2016. It was standard practice e for years! |
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