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| Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit (1393422) | |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Apr 26 07:38:37 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 26 00:14:22 2016. NICE! |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 07:41:38 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Apr 26 06:15:31 2016. The older Telco COs added touch tone by adding tone receivers/translators to circuitry, since they were originally designed to receive rotary dial pulses. Newer COs (even most of the crossbar mechanicals that came after the steppers)sounded different. About the second item, when Jamaica CO was switched to a new digital CO, it was engineered for the number of subscriber lines that were listed as having touchtone, way more people were using it and it resulted in dialing delays/queuing for tone receivers. oops. Of course, dtmf became the standard, now pulse dialing is pretty rare. Depending on where you lived and timing, You could have gone early mechanical to last gen mechanical, or to early ESS. All the early ESS are now gone replaced with digital COs |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 07:50:02 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 25 23:42:57 2016. We were trained in an era when "working live" was the accepted practice. A certain degree of care and diligence was our way. The new standard is everything must be de energized unless special conditions preclude that. Lockout tagout is not the suggested practice, it is the OSHA requirement. My body quit on me after 35 years, but (hopefully) the brain still works so I stay involved teaching in electrical apprenticeship training. Helps me stay on top of things, or should I say "current" |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 08:01:33 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Apr 25 23:24:33 2016. Actually I was IBEW, mostly on the PBX side. But when I broke in there were quite a few that didn't have "feature phones" and they were backed up by "real phones" For about 10 years I handled a multi location project with everything from Nortel to Nec to Stromberg and even 4 Wescom 580s. They didn't plan it that way, but everytime they a acquired new location and added it to their network it seemed to have a different system. Made everyday a new challenge. The Stromberg and the Wescoms used 1A2 key, so together I had a few thousand k sets. They had hospitals so even at the locations with electronic sets for admin, the still had conventional phones for patients and corridors. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Tue Apr 26 08:25:47 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Apr 25 08:17:15 2016. But he read the choo choo that could |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Apr 26 09:56:08 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by nasadowsk on Mon Apr 25 17:45:06 2016. One of the EEs at NJT who had been around a long time, said that the old 3kv system was actually almost as bad as the current 25kv (really 27.6kv on the Hoboken side) system is.That's not what this pamphlet from the Edison General Electric company says. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 26 10:43:36 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Apr 25 18:35:34 2016. In"...Pelham 1 2 3" when the Robert Shaw character "fries" himself on the 3d rail, does the movie depict an accurate description of what happens to a body that makes simultaneous contact with 3d & running rail?? Just wonderin... |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Apr 26 10:45:04 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 26 10:43:36 2016. DC contracts the muscles, AC causes shakes.ROAR |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Apr 26 11:16:26 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 07:50:02 2016. I work in the tiny part of the trade usually alone, so it is up to me and the homeowner. Since there are rarely even other tradespeople on site, I don't lock out tag out against myself. Nor do I have a daily safety briefing with myself, although if I have an assistant, I certainly have a chat before we start. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 11:20:38 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Apr 26 11:16:26 2016. As this whole thread seems to indicate, common sense and the law do not always meet. |
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Re: A "Shocking" Lawsuit |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Apr 26 11:53:51 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 26 10:43:36 2016. That was a "pretty" electrocution. In real life, the burns a person can sustain from high-voltage, high-current sources like this rails or catenary wire, can be both extremely severe and gruesome. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Apr 26 12:05:02 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 25 23:42:57 2016. Taking electrical installation classes at Westinghouse V.& T.H.S. in Brooklyn in the 60's one of the first things we were taught was the use of the lockout tags and the multiple lockout hasp whenever working on any electrical systems, that knowledge saved a buddy's life when working in Rockefeller Center years later. Karl |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 12:11:10 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Apr 26 12:05:02 2016. Don't know how it is now, but Rock Center used to have high standards and quality people compared to a number of other places. Always liked working there. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Apr 26 12:12:17 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by GIS Man on Mon Apr 25 09:39:55 2016. That's providing the home owner doesn't shoot and kill him first LOL. Karl |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 26 18:06:06 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Apr 25 20:06:17 2016. Yep, that's how things work in this country. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 18:17:51 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 08:01:33 2016. Yep ... Carterphone decision meant that you'd never know what kind of shit you'd walk into. Nothing beat the combo though of Nortel and Executone on the same pairs. :) |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 26 19:43:44 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Apr 25 09:36:25 2016. Just offhand, I probably couldn't have imagined a reasonable set of circumstances that would justify someone suing a McDonalds because they spilled coffee on themselves.As it turned out, my lack of imagination was of little relevance to the actual case. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 19:54:29 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 18:17:51 2016. Funny thing, I worked for Executone at one time, and later worked extensively on the Nortel product line. I ran a field technical group that supported a few hundred Nortel PBX's. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 26 20:12:59 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 26 19:43:44 2016. I seem to remember someone did sue McDonalds about 25 years ago because they burned themselves because the coffee was "too hot", and they collected.That caused a lot of hot warning labels, and more scientifically engineered plastic caps everywhere. I remember when coffee caps were just a simple piece of plastic, and we ripped a wedge off to drink it. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 20:19:47 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 19:54:29 2016. Same here ... in Long Island City in the early 70's. At the time they were king of the insanely thick leaf switch stacks to make stuff work. Came in as an engineer and tried to persuade them to let me design their logic switching around nice, cheap 74LS digital chips. Needless to say, not at all interested in anything other than click, clank, clunk. Spent a couple of months there, moved on to Western Union. :) |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 26 21:03:06 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 26 20:12:59 2016. I seem to remember someone did sue McDonalds about 25 years ago because they burned themselves because the coffee was "too hot", and they collected.Indeed. They collected because the coffee was "too hot," as in considerably hotter than hot coffee is normally served and thus its spill caused third-degree burns which required skin grafts to treat. Of course, if you just told someone that a plaintiff sued McDonalds and won because they ordered hot coffee and then spilled it on themselves, and you omitted the third-degree burns, the skin grafts, the week in a hospital, the three weeks of follow-up care, the two years of partial disability, the permanent disfigurement, and the fact that it was all caused by coffee served much hotter than anyone would have reasonably expected then of course it would seem frivolous. After all, how many of us would have imagined the circumstances that justified it? |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 26 21:21:31 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 26 21:03:06 2016. Excellent post |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 21:40:15 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 20:19:47 2016. When I got there in the late 70's they were transitioning into telephone systems, and most of what they sold was relabeled equipment from other manufacturers. But the intercom, nurse call and paging stuff seemed like it was stone age, but very rugged (overbuilt). Towards the end of my time there they released an in house designed computer controlled nurse call (6502 in each unit, fully addressable) keeping them running paid for my first brand new car, hospital systems are 24/7/365 no such thing as we'll be there tomw. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 21:48:15 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 21:40:15 2016. Yep ... they were hell bent on keeping things mechanical. Not that I had a problem with that, but my background was electronic designs and they seemed less interested in moving forward at the time, so I moved on. The early Northern Telecom stuff looked cheapass, but it was very well built despite its looks.And no, "life critical" stuff allows no slack. :) |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Apr 26 22:13:12 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 26 20:12:59 2016. He knew that. That's why he said what he said. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 23:20:27 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 21:48:15 2016. Most early NT stuff was based on Western Electric Standards, they did evolve from "Bell of Canada" Their later stuff was every bit as good as anyone's., and much more modern in appearance. Very successful both as PBX and CO switches. Self destructed, sold off in pieces, Avaya bought a number of their lines. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Apr 26 23:36:05 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Apr 26 06:15:31 2016. It changed whenever DTMF arrived in the AREA (not the LINE) Old dial tone + background noise = false digits registering. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 23:53:05 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 23:20:27 2016. One of my favorite products out of them was the "Contempra" line of CPE. There was plenty of room inside the case to add antiiretapping detection electronics which was what I did when I worked for an operation called "Communications Control Corp" designing that stuff. I loved those phones. :)And yeah, really sad how fast Nortel went on the skids. Verizon CO's upstate had a lot of their crap in the racks, and it kept the frame monkeys quite busy. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 23:53:46 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 23:20:27 2016. Meant to post the pic of the Contempras, I'm sure you remember these:
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Apr 26 23:57:15 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Apr 26 06:15:31 2016. Some of the 1960's tone changes had to do with direct international dialing. Each country had different tones. The person making the call had to interpret the different tones correctly. Some country's ringing signal was interpreted as a busy signal. Result: the caller hung up even though the call went through.The biggest problem was the French transfer tone which had no US equivalent. Its purpose was to tell the caller the call went through before the phone rang. Something like 90% of US callers thought it was a busy signal. The various countries settled on a new set of tones that were less confusing but still close to the original ones. US signalling between CO's and above was tone and not pulse from the 1940's on. It was in band signalling until blue boxes became fashionable. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Apr 27 00:07:40 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Apr 26 23:57:15 2016. 1400 + 2600 = havoc. ;)Once they went to out of band signalling though, what you'd do is find the A side and the B side of the exchange test loop numbers, then call the operator through that, tell them that you were the "test desk" and have them dial it for you. Fun fact ... one of the two founders of Apple made blue colored boxes for his friends. You might recognize the face. Heh. 
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Apr 27 00:24:18 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 23:53:46 2016. bought a couple w/o ringers from some place in upstate way back when. More recently a Canadian friend got a Red one--Mr President the Red Phone is ringing. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Apr 27 00:41:14 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Apr 27 00:24:18 2016. They were really great phones. Yeah, the bell in them was a little cheesy, but those phones were nice and loud and clean. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 08:43:43 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 23:53:05 2016. One of the nicest (and rare) phones they made was a contempra covered in leather. Couldn't sell any because it cost too much, but damn nice looking. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 08:48:42 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 23:53:46 2016. How about logic-10 which had 2 different cords available? conventional k-10 or foreign color sequence. had to look twice before working on those! |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Apr 27 09:42:55 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 26 23:53:46 2016. Henry Dreyfuss did not design it. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 10:24:03 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Apr 27 09:42:55 2016. No, but he did do the "Bell 300" design, one of the classic phone designs of all time. I did mention in another post that the Contempra covered in leather was a neat looking phone, the regular plastic ones were bulletproof but certainly not attractive. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 10:36:35 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 26 21:03:06 2016. "They collected because the coffee was "too hot," as in considerably hotter than hot coffee is normally served and thus its spill caused third-degree burns which required skin grafts to treat."Ah don' thin' so. The correct holding temperature for coffee is 170-190 degrees, it is an industry standard, or was until the McD's case. Coffee must be brewed at 202-205, it must be fresh, and it should use a thermos not warming plate. Thus, when you drink it 5-10 minutes later it's pleasantly hot. Years ago I worked in construction, and when making the morning coffee run as an apprentice, the take-out coffee (pre-McD's lawsuit) was at about the right temp when it arrived at the site about 10 minutes after purchase. Most takeout coffee was going to a work site or an office and could not be consumed less than 10-15 minutes after serving, and reheated coffee is typically awful. Holding hot coffee in/above your lap while wearing sweatpants is stupid, as is eating/drinking while driving. It may be common, it's not smart, as you should have your attention on the road not whatever you're fumbling with. Summarry: McD's was serving coffee at the correct temperature for takeout. That's too hot to drink; I always have to wait for such coffee to cool a bit. If it's drinkable right away, it's been sitting too long and needs to be dumped. You could make a better case about the horrible death, disfigurement, agonizing torture etc etc of subway and commuter rail hazards. No need to go into the gruesome details, unless you are a trial lawyer ;-). |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 10:42:41 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 10:36:35 2016. The standard temperature for domestic hot water supply was lowered in NYC to help prevent bathroom shower scalding, but it is too low for disinfecting and dishwashers and sanitizers have to use boost heating. There is no way to make everyone happy. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Apr 27 10:56:26 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Tue Apr 26 12:11:10 2016. My good friend Pat Rooney who was chief electrician always had a tailboard meeting with all the electricians every morning, sometimes I was included when working with them on the HVAC systems then Sal Morassa was my partner. Yea RCI started to change big time that's when a lot of the engineers left Don Steffnelli among them I wonder if Steve Dunn is still there. Karl |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Apr 27 11:23:05 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 10:36:35 2016. I see what you're saying here, but the jury nevertheless found for the plaintiff, whose stupidity was not only the proximate cause of her injuries, but the huge award she received. I always thought the temperature of the coffee in that case was normal; hot chocolate from restaurants is the same way, you have to let it cool a bit before you can drink it. But as another poster in this thread pointed out, the intersection between (tort) law and common sense is a convoluted one, at best. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Apr 27 11:43:47 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 10:42:41 2016. actually you have detailed that it is possible by tuning the specs to the usage. Having the DWdo the boost internally IS an elegant solution. BTW, some restaurants use cold water DW systems w/a strong disinfectant detergent which is certified for the purpose. Other food prep facilities economize by pre-heating the water through a heat exchanger in the coolant loop of a refrigeration system. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 27 12:33:04 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 10:36:35 2016. Other than mentioning that the Plaintiff wasn't in a moving car when the spill occurred, I just want to comment that I'm thankful for the change which made coffee colder. It means I have to wait less time before it's drinkable. I don't put milk in my coffee. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 13:15:45 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Apr 27 11:43:47 2016. There is some energy saving benefit also, since the energy to heat/hold a higher temperature that is not needed in water is considerable. The problem is not having different standards for different occupancies. DHW heating is also a prime use of heat from co-gen systems, and is a major contributor to their economics. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 14:29:31 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Apr 27 11:23:05 2016. Agreed, and convoluted is an apt choice of words here. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 15:36:16 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Apr 27 11:23:05 2016. It is worth reading further information about the case. Quite a bit of the information people believe results from inaccurate reporting (surprising, right) and the fact that these things take on a life of their own. Judgement was reduced drastically by the judge, and settled out of court before appeals. There were warnings on the cup, jury didn't think they were big enough.(I always figured this case was why they were there) Woman was held 20% responsible for her own injuries, but 80% of a big number is still a big number. I always thought it was California, (a state that seems to attract this kind of stuff)and it was actually New Mexico. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Apr 27 17:07:48 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 27 08:48:42 2016. Heh. I've only seen them here and there, never had to crack one open. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Apr 28 16:06:11 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 10:36:35 2016. Did McDonald's have separate supplies of coffee for "eat in" and "take out" orders? I've never heard of that. Maybe it's because I'm not a coffee drinker, but I expect many people have never heard of such a practice, if indeed it exists. Generally, the only difference between an eat-in and a take-out order at McDonald's is whether the order is put into bags or on a tray. I'd say that giving someone coffee hot enough to seriously burn them is definitely negligent. Like Nilet, I originally thought the case was utterly frivolous, due to the incomplete way it was reported in the media, but since learning the actual facts of the case, I no longer do. |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by jabrams on Fri Apr 29 17:48:19 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by Steamdriven on Wed Apr 27 10:36:35 2016. Getting back to the original topic, the lawyer could have stated that Amtrak should have lowered the catenary shoe (or whatever it is actually called), as the person probably touched that instead of the actually catenary. Of course if it is lowered by electricity, can the batteries automatically raise them in the morning? |
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Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Apr 29 22:19:06 2016, in response to Re: A ''Shocking'' Lawsuit, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed Apr 27 11:23:05 2016. Years ago I heard the quip that being seated on a jury causes the average person's I.Q. score to drop ten points. |
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