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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 31 11:50:19 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. If the Metro area had a "Robert Moses" get things done type in favor of mass transit instead of highways, half of the stuff you mentioned might have already been built |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 12:11:50 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 31 11:50:19 2015. Haha I know right? Oh wait....that's true... (depression) |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by ntrainride on Fri Jul 31 12:47:50 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. nice. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea (NOW WITH FUNDING!) |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 14:22:25 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. Partial funding for this could come from the development or redevelopment of land into TODs around train stations served by this. Jamaica, East New York, Winfield Jct, and Sunnyside all have land that could be used for TODs and the ongoing redevelopments of Newark and Downtown Brooklyn could be boosted even further by this. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jul 31 14:33:50 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. A major problem with any attempt to connect NYP with the existing tracks at GCT is the third rail. All tracks heading east from NYP have LIRR-style over-running third rail, do they not? While GCT and the tracks leading north from it use under-running third rail. Also, can trackways heading into Grand Central from the south be built without undermining the lower level concourse? (The upper-level tracks are obviously ruled out, since they are at street level.) And isn't there a turn-around loop there? Maybe ripping out the turn-around loop would allow the space it occupies to be re-used for a southern approach to GCT. Would it then really become "Grand Central Station" again, since it would no longer be strictly a terminal?Or is it the new East Side Access tracks for the LIRR that "Alternative G" was going to connect with? |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 14:50:08 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jul 31 14:33:50 2015. I was talking about tracks 1-5 to GCT lower level, but ESA to NYP tracks could also be an option. This is actually the least necessary of anything I put up, but it could still be wildly beneficial |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 31 18:01:28 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. Stopped reading at "Alt G", that's where it made the leap from crazy to simply insane. At G is the most unfortunate flight of fancy to ever be hatched in the NY metro area. It'd be extraordinarily expensive to build, result in massive disruption at the street level, and provide relatively little benefit for the massive compatibility issues it'd present.Trying to dig a shallow tunnel into GCT's lower level is nothing but a recipe for unending budget overruns. Just look at what happened when we went from ARC's deep cavern to Gateway's shallow PSNY South. Alt G forces us to build shallow tunels at both NYP and GCT. You might be able to get away with a deep bore cavern next to ESA's terminal, but M42 might get in the way. I'd rather have an arrangement which allows easy transfers between NJT, LIRR, and perhaps MNRR trains than trying to tackle the incompatibilities in the three systems. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 18:57:37 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 31 18:01:28 2015. And your opinion on the other stuff? And perhaps scrap Alt G (it's at the bottom of my wish list), but what about connecting ESA to Penn South? |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jul 31 19:30:46 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jul 31 14:33:50 2015. The 3d rail issue is the least of the problems for connecting the LIRR to GCT from the south. A 3d rail contact shoe compatible with both designs is out there.As you mentioned, a connection to the upper level would be impossible since it is at street level. However, a connection to the lower level would be next to impossible. Reason being, the lower level loop track has a thin wall separating it from the IRT shuttle. One of the original plans for GCT was to break thru the wall & connect the NYCRR to the IRT at that lower level spot. The connection was never made, but the loop track & shuttle is still there. To build a line connecting NYP to GCT from the south would be a logistical & construction nightmare to get around all that, not to mention need a boat load of $$$. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Jul 31 22:06:11 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 18:57:37 2015. I think for the amount of money that such would cost, it would be much more valuable to get a fifth East river tunnel connecting to Penn South. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 23:23:09 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by R30A on Fri Jul 31 22:06:11 2015. You could, however, thru-route a more frequent level commuter service via GCT since they wouldn't need access to WSY or Sunnyside Yard facilities and leave the current East River and Hudson Tubes to Amtrak and LIRR/NJT trains coming in from further away that do need to go to the yard after dropping at NYP. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Aug 1 00:47:44 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. Do your worst...
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 1 01:51:28 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Aug 1 00:47:44 2015. Great list.Additions/amplifications. unify the AC supply for ALL of the NEC to 60 Cycle (common commercial power). Re-electrify the PRR routes at least as far as Harrisburg and former Pot Yard, add wires to Richmond. Electrify the CNJ RDG LV. Install catenary on the Empire Corridor to Albany (if money is really no object, re-electrify the ex NYC to AC Catenary). Rebuild/upgrade all of the tunnels through Baltimore for both full high and wide double stacks and catenary. and yes, I want CSX to get with the program. I'll vote my 10 shares LOL |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by chud1 on Sat Aug 1 04:30:26 2015, in response to Re: A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Aug 1 00:47:44 2015. sounds good to me.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 1 19:18:40 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. I like the idea of extending the PATH to Jamaica in particular if the LIRR plans to make that the "Brooklyn Scoot" and sever it from the main branch. If you can do that, it opens up a lot of potential expansion in Brooklyn and especially in the CBD in Jamaica in particular, especially if people suddenly have a one-seat ride to New Jersey and even Newark Airport.Through-routing between Penn Station and GCT is something if it can be done would really help in my view, especially if trains from New Jersey and points south can go to Grand Central as well as Penn Station, especially if it allowed for example for NJ Trainsit trains to also stop at 125th Street and continue to points in The Bronx without going through Queens. |
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Re: A super crazy fantasy idea |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Aug 14 00:26:56 2015, in response to A super crazy fantasy idea, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jul 31 11:38:56 2015. So as an update:Some here were saying Plan G isn't viable because of underpinning at GCT. So what about sending ESA into tracks 1-5 at NYP? You could then implement 20 min headways on lines within a certain service area thru routing via Manhattan (not for regional connectivity as much as for efficiency). It goes along with my previous idea of providing 20 min headways at city zone stations on the LIRR. On the east end you have 20 min service originating at Freeport (via St Albans), Valley Steam (via Locust Manor), Belmont Race Track, and Bayside. On the west end you have Yonkers, Linden NJ, Vince Lombardi Park and Ride, and Paterson. I pick these because they all have either existing facilities nearby to stage trains or space to put in a facility nearby. All GCT service from the LI side is via these trains (so nothing from, say, Babylon, Ronkonkoma, or Port Washington would operate to GCT) since those tracks would be through routed to NYP 1-5 which I don't believe have access to WSY and because those trains continue thru NYP to the "western" termini. Bayside service via midtown only Freeport/Valley Stream/Belmont service via both midtown and downtown Yonkers/Linden service via midtown only Paterson/Vince Lombardi service via downtown only At Bayside, use Bay interlocking to turn trains and the MOW yard to store them Freeport has the staging yard Valley Stream has I believe a staging track Belmont has that big station Yonkers looks like there's some land north of the station to put a staging yard Linden looks like there's a yard that can be used to the south Vince Lombardi has space to put a staging yard Paterson could use what looks like the old freight terminal at the station |
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