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| (1353335) | |
What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 03:58:53 2015 If the 60th Street tunnel had to go out of service full time for over a year like Montague after Sandy, how would the MTA work around that?Obviously, R trains can be diverted through 63rd Street and the 7 can be made fairly self-sufficient during its isolation (maybe a few cars will have to be trucked to 207th or Coney Island and back) but what would happen to the Astoria line? Assuming there isn't enough room to bring a train off the Queens Boulevard IND and reverse in the tunnel, the Astoria line would be cut off from any yard, meaning it wouldn't be feasible to operate it as a shuttle for a full year. Most likely, the MTA would shutter it and bustitute it (while contemplating whether a case can be made to TEAR DOWN THE ASTORIA EL for reals), but would it be relatively easy to run an Astoria shuttle using IRT cars (adding wood platform extenders to cover the gap)? What about building a switch on the lower level and running Astoria trains through to Manhattan to connect with the truncated N line at Times Square? Sorry, it's 4 in the morning and I should be going to sleep. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat May 23 11:18:57 2015, in response to What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 03:58:53 2015. I'm not sure if the Steinway Tubes could handle the combined tph of the Astoria & Flushing Line. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 18:28:20 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat May 23 11:18:57 2015. Even with CBTC? |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Allan on Sat May 23 18:46:35 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat May 23 11:18:57 2015. The Steinway Tube is too narrow to handle trains from Astoria, which are BMT/IND width of 10 feet. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 18:51:46 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Allan on Sat May 23 18:46:35 2015. The idea was that if the 60th Street tunnel were closed, the Astoria line would be converted to an IRT line for the duration— even if it were just a shuttle to Queensboro Plaza, it would have to use IRT cars because it would be cut off from any yard that a BMT/IND car could access. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 19:21:40 2015, in response to What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 03:58:53 2015. If the 60th Street tunnel were to need major repairs for an extended period of time, say a year, there are a number of options the MTA could take.1) The MTA could easily route R-trains north of the 57th Street-Seventh Ave station along the 63rd Street Tunnel both to and from Queens Blvd sharing those tracks with F-trains. While these R-trains would not stop at the Queens Plaza, 60th Street-Lexington Avenue, or Fifth Avenue stations in both directions - thus 2 major transfer stations - plenty of riders could still be accommodated. 2) The lengthy repair work on the 60th Street Tunnel would not have to take both tracks out of service. For example one track could be taken out of service for 6 months, and then the other track for 6 months of non-stop repair work. 3) One track at the 60th Street-Lexington Avenue station would be used for through traffic both to/from Queens. The other track - the one under repair could be used to terminate trains. For example during the AM-rush hours - N-train traffic from Astoria could proceed as normal between Manhattan and Queens, while N-trains from Brooklyn could terminate/relay on the capped-off track and return to Brooklyn. In the evening PM-hours N-train traffic to Astoria would flow, while Brooklyn-bound N-trains would terminate at 60th Street-Lexington Avenue. The middle track along the Astoria line would be used to store and to supply trains for the rush hour periods, and as storage over nights. 4) During the day-times, evenings and weekends - the single operating track would be used for both traffic to/from Astoria, with the capped-off track used to terminate/relay/return N-trains to Brooklyn that can be accommodated on the trek to/from Queens. This would make the 60th Street-Lexington the "for the duration Manhattan terminal" of the N-train. 5) Q-Trains would either terminate north of the 42nd Street station, at 57th Street-Seventh Avenue, 60th Street-Lexington Avenue station, or routed up & through Second Avenue to the 96th Street-Second Avenue station - all depending upon when this kind of long-term repair work would take place. 6) Under such a long-term repair project the #7 train would be heavily impacted by the extra passenger traffic at all times of the day/nights/weekends. The amount of scheduled train traffic on the #7 line would have to increased at all hours to handle the loads. 7) It is possible that a series of shuttle trains - one between 60th Street-Lexington Avenue and Queens Boro-Plaza, and one between Astoria and Queens Boro-Plaza might be instituted during some portions of the repair work. Such a shuttle operation might be feasible for the rush hour periods - with their high passenger demands - but for lighter traffic periods. 8) Bus service on the Q-102 and nearby Q-101 would be beefed up allowing riders to take those buses directly to the Queens Plaza station for service to/from Manhattan. In addition a full-length shuttle bus should be established between the Ditmars Blvd station and the Queens Plaza and Queens-Borough Plaza stations, that runs through-out the repair period. 9) Some thought would have to be given to the creation of a direct bus route from 60th Street-Lexington Avenue, the 63rd Street-Lexington Avenue and the Queens Plaza or Queens-Borough Plazs stations, with possibly some runs of this bus extended all of the way to Ditmars Blvd. -------------- Just a few thoughts. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Allan on Sat May 23 20:12:19 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 18:51:46 2015. That could make things a bit dangerous for passengers since the Astoria platforms were shaved back back in the 1940's to fit BMT width cars. Use of IRT width cars there would leave a dangerous 1 foot gap between the car and the platform.The MTA would have to put platform extenders on each platform. And it would have to be a shuttle since the only crossover between BMT and IRT is south of Queensboro Plaza on the upper level. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Allan on Sat May 23 20:12:19 2015. I’m sure that when Nilet mentioned converting the Astoria Line for IRT operation, he implied that the platforms would have to be modified to close the gaps between the platform edge and the car bodies. There is another small problem however with the closing of the 60 St tube. While Corona Barn is an inspection and trouble barn, heavy main shop work for the Flushing fleet is done at CIY which the Flushing Line would be cut off from. That would mean that in the event of really heavy maintenance work, a connection would have to be built, if there isn’t one already, between Corona Yd and the LIRR and the cars would have to be dieseled to CIY via the LIRR and the Bay Ridge Branch like the Eastern Div cars were moved when the Willy B was closed. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:58:53 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 19:21:40 2015. More than likely, by the time such a shutdown would take place, the SAS would be open and the Qs would be going there. The rest of the operation sounds pretty reasonable depending on whether or not both tracks would be available in Lex/60 St station which might be the case like it was with the Montague St tunnel. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 23:04:36 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:58:53 2015. I understand.In re-reading the long message, I realized one mistake, I left out the word NOT at the most crucial part of the sentence. I have to work on that. 4) During the day-times, evenings and weekends - the single operating track could be used for both traffic to/from Astoria, with the capped-off track used to terminate/relay/return N-trains to Brooklyn that can NOT be accommodated on the trek to/from Queens. This would make the 60th Street-Lexington the "for the duration Manhattan terminal" of the N-train. Since this is hypothetical scenario I'm really not sure what would cause such major damage to the 60th Street Tunnel. It is still a good idea to have a "what-if" plan, just in case. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 23:14:18 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Sat May 23 23:04:36 2015. I just have to proof-read my messages!7) It is possible that a series of shuttle trains - one between 60th Street-Lexington Avenue and Queens Boro-Plaza, and one between Astoria and Queens Boro-Plaza might be instituted during some portions of the repair work. Such a shuttle operation might NOT be feasible for the rush hour periods - with their high passenger demands - but for lighter traffic periods. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun May 24 01:43:34 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Allan on Sat May 23 20:12:19 2015. The MTA sets up entire platforms when construction requires it, so extending existing ones shouldn't be too hard.Running IRT Astoria trains through to Manhattan would only be if they build a lower level crossover. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 24 04:31:55 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015. Or such would be the push to perhaps have it so a new portal would allow the (G) to go above ground after Court Square and connect such to the Astoria Line so in the event 60th is cut off, you still have a connection to the rest of the system. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun May 24 05:55:19 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 24 04:31:55 2015. That's a lot more difficult and expensive than installing a switch between the adjacent tracks on QBP lower level or a ramp from Corona Yard to the adjacent LIRR line. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 24 07:35:39 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Sun May 24 01:43:34 2015. Running IRT Astoria trains through to Manhattan would only be if they build a lower level crossover.It's going to be difficult. The crossover was at the western end of the lower level platform. That space is now occupied by dispatcher offices and a master tower. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun May 24 07:44:50 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015. AHEM...Suppose the 60th Street tunnel were closed. The leads to such tunnel could still be used to access the Queensboro line, could they not. Maybe not for da pax, but certainly for da maintenance. ROAR |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 24 14:16:13 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 24 07:35:39 2015. When did they remove the crossover? |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 24 14:18:27 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 24 14:16:13 2015. That Xover has been gone as long as I can remember probably since around 1949 when the Astoria Line went completely BMT. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Allan on Sun May 24 14:26:11 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015. "a connection would have to be built, if there isn’t one already, between Corona Yd and the LIRR"There isn't a connection between the Corona facility and the LIRR tracks - it should not be that difficult to make one. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 24 19:48:45 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sun May 24 14:18:27 2015. Huh. I thought for sure there were crossovers on both the upper and lower levels. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun May 24 20:00:13 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015. How could that happen? The Parkville interchange between the Bay Ridge branch & Mc Donald Avenue tracks are long extinct. The tracks on McDonald Ave leading to CIY from the Bay Ridge Branch are long ago paved over? In the event of a 60th St tunnel shutdown, How could the LIRR help get Flushing Line trains to CIY nowadays? |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun May 24 21:24:49 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun May 24 20:00:13 2015. If there is an interconnect between the Sea Beach line and the Bay Ridge branch it could work. Could also use the Bay Ridge branch connection to the Canarsie line, then via Broadway-Brooklyn and Montague. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun May 24 23:06:18 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015. B division cars could relay on the tunnel portal ramp south of Queensboro Plaza. Nigh time maintenance car moves can be performed using the 11th Street cut into the IND at Queens Plaza, assuming that work trains were not in the way. Unfortunately the diamond cross-over on the 11th Street cut was removed in 2004.Over night shuttle operations limited to single track operation with 30 minute intervals, or replaced by buses. A Division equipment car tripping devices are on the right side of the car, while B Division signals have trip arm on the left side. To move trip arms back to their pre-1949 IRT position would be a major requirement if IRT equipment were to serve Astoria. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 25 04:48:50 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Sun May 24 05:55:19 2015. Yes, but that also allows the (G) to continue to a terminal at Ditmars it can share with the (R) and provide a direct connection from Astoria to the (E) and (M) at Court Square. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 25 12:47:18 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 24 19:48:45 2015. Originally, yes, but once the Astoria and Flushing lines were placed under the exclusive operation of the BMT and IRT respectively, the Xover on the Manhattan bound level was no longer needed in addition to the fact that the only place to extend the platforms to accommodate the longer trains that would be operated on both lines was at the Manhattan end. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 25 12:56:07 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun May 24 23:06:18 2015. If the tunnel were out of service, it’s likely that the area S/O the 11 St cut needed to relay a train back to the IND would not be available either. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon May 25 20:30:31 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun May 24 23:06:18 2015. From a previous message: "Over night shuttle operations limited to single track operation with 30 minute intervals, or replaced by buses."On the current N-train Weekday Service Time-Schedule South-Bound between Queens-Borough Plaza and 57th Street, the N-train is expected to make the journey in 8-10 minutes, for rush hours, day-times, evenings, and weekends. On the current N-train Weekday Service Time Schedule, the north-bound N-train is expected to make the journey from 57th Street to Queens-Borough Plaza in 8-10 minutes, during the various rush hours, day-times, evenings and weekends. On the current Q-train Weekday Service Time Schedule south-bound Q-trains are expected to travel between 57th Street to Queens-Borough Plaza in 9-10 minutes during the weekdays. The north-bound Q-train is expected to make the journey from 57th Street to Queens-Borough Plaza in 9-10 minutes during the weekdays. The current R-train schedule only has time points between the 60th Street-Lexington Avenue station and the Roosevelt Avenue station, and there R-trains are expected to make the trip in 15-16-18-20 minutes. I suspect the variance of the time would indicate the amount of riders, train congestion, etc. between the rush hour periods, day-times, night-times, etc. ------------ Why I do bring this up? Simple - I do not know exactly how much time it takes to travel to/from the 60th Street-Lexington Avenue station to/from either Queens-Borough Plaza or to/from Queens Plaza stations. I know that the run between those two stations is usually pretty speedy, or it as least it felt speedy when I rode those lines. Purely based on conjecture, I'd put the whole trip at 5 minutes. Which is why I'm puzzled at an off-the-cuff suggestion in a previous message that 30-minute intervals between trains would be needed IF there had to be a single track operation between the Queens-Borough Plaza and 60th Street-Lexington Avenue stations. Both of these stations have the track switching to make the operation straight-forward, and it is just a matter of controlling the traffic between these two points. I'm not usually skilled at making train schedules, or train meets. At a trip of say, 5 minutes for this kind of a run, I'm sure that each direction could be accommodated easily with trains running every 10 minutes without a problem. I know that someone here will correct my math, but trains every 10 minutes seems reasonable. I know that during the late nights that there were single track operations on the #4 line between Bowling Green and Borough Hall, and 30 minutes between trains simply did not happen. Just my thoughts. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 25 21:23:55 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Mon May 25 20:30:31 2015. The public timetable doesn’t contain all the timepoints, but they are in the data base for all the lines that pass through those points. The running time between the 11 St cut an Lex Av is the same of all lines passing through those timepoints. When single tracking in the 60 St tube was commonplace, it was possible to run a 20 min headway on whatever the only line was running there at the time. Almost all the river tubes on the NYCTS can sustain a 20 min headway with the exception of the Clark St tube since the closest switches in Bkln between N/B and S/B 7 Av tracks to Clark St station are N/O Atlantic Av which is too long a distance to sustain a successful 20 min single track headway. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 26 06:33:52 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 25 04:48:50 2015. The marginal benefit of such a connection does not justify its enormous cost. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 26 06:34:47 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun May 24 07:44:50 2015. The question was based on the assumption that enough of the line would be closed that there'd be no room to relay a train from Queensboro Plaza to the Queens Boulevard line. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 26 06:35:32 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun May 24 20:00:13 2015. If they build a way to bring cars from Corona Yard to the LIRR line, they can rebuild the connection from the LIRR to the Canarsie line. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue May 26 14:37:22 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Mon May 25 21:23:55 2015. From a previous message: "The public timetable doesn’t contain all the timepoints, but they are in the data base for all the lines that pass through those points. The running time between the 11 St cut an Lex Av is the same of all lines passing through those timepoints. When single tracking in the 60 St tube was commonplace, it was possible to run a 20 min headway on whatever the only line was running there at the time"Assumptions: a) One idea is that the tunnel outage would last for a year, and would extend to the rush hours, day-times, evenings, weekends, etc. Similar in kind to the year-long outage on the Montague Street Tunnel for the R-train. b) That one working track could be used for bi-directional travel between Manhattan and Queens. I've suggested that repair work take place on one track while the other is in service, and then at the half-way mark, the repaired track is used for bi-directional service while the "other" track is repaired. c) That the ridership of the Astoria segment is very high during the rush hours and day-times. Due to the high ridership at all hours, a combination of approaches be taken to help transport the riders, as outlined in a previous message. ------------ When I read the message that I replied to - that concerned a 30-minute interval between trains traveling bi-directionally between 60th Street-Lexington Avenue and Queens-Borough Plaza, or the "11th Avenue Cut" - I simply believed that a 30-minute wait between trains is just too much of a waiting time, especially for the rush hours, given the crowds of the Astoria line. That was why I started to look at the time schedules, etc. I concede that maybe there are created schedules for 20-minute intervals for bi-directional travel for a tunnel project like this. However for a line that has service and packed rush hour trains every 5 minutes (combined N & Q trains in Astoria) to go a train every 20 or 30 minutes between Queens and Manhattan DURING the rush hours is a tall order, and a great reduction in service. (I agree that maybe in the day-times, late nights or maybe on weekends, such a 20-minute schedule could meet the needs of the riders. True, I suggested that the bi-directional travel would NOT take place during the rush hours. How many trains can be stored on the middle track on the Astoria line anyway?) I believe that if such a project had to be under-taken, that the schedulers and dispatchers at the MTA, as well as the transit planners would come up with a good comprehensive plan to manage this kind of event. Yes, I did list several ideas in another message, but that was only a starting point. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue May 26 16:20:47 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Tue May 26 06:35:32 2015. They don’t have to rebuild it AFAIK it’s still there. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 26 18:07:46 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Tue May 26 06:33:52 2015. Yes, it would be costly, but likely not as costly since most of such a stretch would be elevated to connect to elevated tracks. This likely would take pressure off Queensboro Plaza since this connection would connect with the (7) one stop down at Court Square (current (G) terminal). It also would give Astoria riders a direct ride to Brooklyn and to the Culver Line.This new connection could also include a stop at Queens Plaza. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by subfan on Wed May 27 09:21:07 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Tue May 26 16:20:47 2015. There is still a connection, but I think it's now to the Livonia shops rather than directly from the LIRR to the Canarsie line.subfan |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed May 27 15:20:29 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 26 18:07:46 2015. Wally, the basic problem with your idea, is not the historical ideas about a Brooklyn/Queens train line that does not enter Manhattan and but services Brooklyn and Queens directly, but the fact that the majority of Astoria N & Q riders WANT & DO travel between Manhattan and Queens regularly.Your idea would be spending money to take folks where they, in large numbers, do not WANT to go - while not offering help for the proposed long-term repair of the 60th Street Tunnel. Plus the planning, designing and building of an elevated line that involves the G-train and the Astoria elevated line could very easily take a year or more to be realized. What also makes planning and design of your proposal heavily detailed is that the elevated #7, the 59th Street-Queens-Borough Bridge are in the way. Plus space and land would also have to be found to elevate the tracks from the G-line to connect at Queens-Borough Plaza. In addition, the capability to have G-trains still connected to the Queens Plaza station, and N & Q trains still able to use the 60th Street Tunnel after the repair work - makes this a very complicated proposal. Even assuming that such an elevated connection could be built (a big if) and that there were direct trains between Astoria & Smith-9th Street/Church Avenue - how does that REALLY help Astoria riders who really WANT & NEED to get to or from Manhattan? The G-train is not exactly noted for its river connections to Manhattan! What makes this "what-if" problem interesting (to me at least) is that Queens only has 4 river crossings, and three of those crossings are fulled to the max with trains and passengers. This makes shifting around riders when one of the crossings it out of service a much more difficult affair - even if it is just a "what if" game. The E, F, M, R, #7 and L trains are all filled with riders rush hours - adding on the extra huge numbers of N & Q train riders is not something easily done. In addition once the 60th Street Tunnel repairs were complete, the great majority of Astoria N & Q riders would return to their usual travel methods between and Manhattan and Queens. Yes, I agree it could be a hassle to take N or Q trains from Astoria, change to the #7 Queens-Borough Plaza, and then change again to the G-train at Court Square. I just question the numbers of folks that NEED & ACTUALLY DO THAT on a regular basis. Yes, this "what-if" proposal is not an easy one that creates an "obivious" solution. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 27 17:03:41 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 27 15:20:29 2015. The Williamsburg bridge can also be considered a Queens river crossing. The Cranberry tunnel is another, but it really serves a different part from the others (Ozone Park and the Rockaways). |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 27 18:19:11 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by subfan on Wed May 27 09:21:07 2015. I believe that somewhere around Linden Yd there is a connection to the LIRR (now NY & A) for delivery of ballast and other materials. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed May 27 18:59:34 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 27 17:03:41 2015. I'm not sure about that.When I step into the subway station at 53rd Street-Lexington Avenue, 42nd Street-Grand Central, 60th Street-Lexington Avenue or 63rd Street-Lexington Avenue or the Roosevelt Island station (which is a part of Manhattan) - the next stop or two IS IN QUEENS! When I step into the Essex Street station or Broadway-Nassau-Fulton Street station the next stop IS IN BROOKLYN! When I step onto the Staten Island Ferry in St. George, Staten Island - the next stop is Whitehall Street, IN Manhattan. I have to take the subway to Brooklyn! I'd never say that currently the Staten Island Ferry takes me to Brooklyn, it is a river crossing to/from Manhattan. By any of those means would could easily say that longer trips can take one to various places. In this case, a person from Astoria, Queens would not really WANT to travel all of the way down the G-train line to downtown Brooklyn to catch the A or C trains using the Cranberry Tunnel and a trip uptown when all they want to do is go to the Museum of Modern Art in Midtown - just because the 60th Street Tunnel is out of service! Most folks really do not like out and around about methods of getting to various places - they prefer quick direct travel as much as possible. Maybe it is just my way of looking at things. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 28 13:45:01 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 27 18:59:34 2015. It all depends. If a person wanted to get to midtown without being squashed like a bug in an overcrowded train, then that passenger would likely take the extra time and use a detour. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 29 01:12:28 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 27 15:20:29 2015. Mike:My plan does NOT have the (G) going to Queensboro Plaza (I said possibly with a stop at QUEENS Plaza above the current E/M/R station) with this (G) extension connecting at 39th Avenue (I thought that was obvious in the last post). Understand on cost, but this would add long-term flexibility and provide a way to trains to connect to the rest of the system should 60th Street have to close for any extended period. Also, you forget how much Downtown Brooklyn (which the (G) does serve at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and to a lesser extent, Futon Street) has expanded and will continue to expand, which I was also taking into account. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri May 29 04:38:24 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 29 01:12:28 2015. It's highly unlikely that the 60th Street tunnel would actually have to close for an extended period, and traffic from Astoria to Downtown Brooklyn is unlikely to be significant at any point in the foreseeable future. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by jrf2 on Fri May 29 07:27:37 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by randyo on Sat May 23 20:54:03 2015. If I'm not mistaken, besides extending the platforms, wouldn't the trippers need to be moved to the other side at each signal? |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri May 29 09:33:39 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri May 29 01:12:28 2015. From a previous message:"My plan does NOT have the (G) going to Queensboro Plaza (I said possibly with a stop at QUEENS Plaza above the current E/M/R station) with this (G) extension connecting at 39th Avenue (I thought that was obvious in the last post)." If you did mention Queen Plaza and I missed it, I apologize. My major point still stands - the design, planning and construction of such an elevated line would have to consider the location of the elevated #7 trains, finding the land & space for the elevating of tracks from the G-train, and connecting those tracks to the current Astoria line in a such a way that current N & Q trains could still travel to/from Manhattan. Plus any other roadways and structures in the area. That remains a very tall order for an out-age expected (in this example) for a year. It is doubtful that the design, planning and construction of such an elevated line could take less than a year to complete. Nor does this time-table take into account the hassles of getting such a project past the planning committees and process, as well as the funding lined up for this kind of a project. Again, just my thoughts. Mike |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Shiznit1987 on Fri May 29 11:51:07 2015, in response to What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Nilet on Sat May 23 03:58:53 2015. My Plan:(E) Regular service (F) Regular service (G) Extended to 71st-Continental all times except nights as QB Local, uses some of (R) Fleet for full size trains. (M) Extended to 71st-Continental all times except nights. (R) Bay Ridge-95st to Lex Ave via Broadway Local (there's a crossover btw 5th ave and Lex) (N) Runs over Bridge, then Broadway Express to 57st st (Q) Runs over Bridge, then Broadway Express to 57th st |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by caine515 on Fri May 29 12:41:22 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Shiznit1987 on Fri May 29 11:51:07 2015. This idea better:(E) regular (F) regular (G) extended to 71st when M not running. (R) via bway/63rd st tunnel. (N) coney island-59/lex. Queensboro plaza-astoria. (Q) coney island-42nd. Late nights to 57-7 |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri May 29 13:52:13 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by jrf2 on Fri May 29 07:27:37 2015. Of course, but that was done when the Astoria Line was converted from IRT to all BMT operation in 1949 so it’s probably not all that difficult to do now. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Fri May 29 15:37:50 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by caine515 on Fri May 29 12:41:22 2015. Anything that would eliminate the merge of the uptown Q at 34th St and downtown N at Prince St would be great. Service has become so slow (especially during rush-hour) that it's significantly faster to take the B/D to/from Brooklyn. It sometimes takes 25 minutes to get from Canal to Times Square on the N during rush hour due to extreme congestion caused by the Q. Would be much smarter to terminate these Q's at 57th/7th during rush-hours, as Astoria residents would get to their destination far quicker (but on a much more crowded train.) |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat May 30 14:46:36 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 27 18:59:34 2015. But the J/Z is still an alternate route to Jamaica, and the M is still the main route to Middle Village. Their first stop after crossing the river may be Brooklyn, but they provide viable services to Queens as well. The Staten Island ferry isn't considered all that great a way to get into Brooklyn (especially southern Brooklyn) because there's already a bus that does that already. |
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Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat May 30 18:32:28 2015, in response to Re: What Would Happen If The 60th Street Tunnel Were Closed?, posted by 3-9 on Sat May 30 14:46:36 2015. From a previous message:"But the J/Z is still an alternate route to Jamaica, and the M is still the main route to Middle Village. Their first stop after crossing the river may be Brooklyn, but they provide viable services to Queens as well." I agree that these lines service Brooklyn and north-eastern Queens, and offer utility to their riders. I am puzzled as to just how these particular lines would help solve the problems of Astoria N & Q train riders in the north-western part of Queens getting to and from Manhattan under the proposed tunnel closing scenario! That is the particular problem that is being looked at, and the particular problem that I'm commenting upon. When the Rockaway lines were out of service for many months due to Hurricane Sandy, the fact that E and F trains were still serviced Queens Blvd and north-western Queens - while useful information - did not actually help solve Rockaway rider problems. Even though the #4, #5 and #6 trains were running in the Bronx - I'd be hard pressed to say how they were contributing to a solution for Rockaway riders. Mike |
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