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Re: What is this supposed to be? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Jan 7 13:58:52 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 6 11:59:52 2015. Speaking of Hearns, do you remember the Hearns dept store on the corner of 5 Av and 14 St in Manhattan and how about the Alexanders dept store under the 3 Av El in the Bronx a few blocks above the 149 St station (I’m not sure of the exact street on that one)?Randy: I did not learn about the Manhattan Hearn;s until many years later. I always though that the one on Westchester Avenue was the only one. After I moved out of the old neighborhood I would return to visit friends. Going home I would wait for the Bx-42 Westchester Avenue bus in front of the store. The Alexanders Store on Third Avenue was either at 155th or 156th Streets, IIRC. My mother told me that in the late 1940's a distraught man walk into the store and shot a saleswoman who was his wife. He then shot himself. The funeral for the wife was held at the Immaculate Conception Church at 150 Street. Because he was a sucide he could not receive a funeral mass in the church at that time so his body remained outside in the hearse. There was another furniture store on Third Avenue called Psier's. There were three five and tens; F.W. Woolworth, R.L. Green and Mc Crory's. The old Victory Theatre was also located on Third Avenue south of Alexander's I believe. The movie house closed about 1959 or so. The marque read "Closed with re-open soon." It never did but the sign was there for many years. I was fortunate enough to ride the el all the way to Chatham Square before 1955. I have dim memories of riding both the MUDC's and the Q Types on the el after it was cut back. Being a true IRT fan I always liked the MUDC's better. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: What is this supposed to be? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Jan 7 14:00:56 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 6 21:47:13 2015. Hi Randyo -Re: There was one morning, though, an older train arrived at 59th, we got on, (I must have been 6 1/2 or 7 years old) What year did you get on that “older train” at 59 St? This would have been any time between June 1956 (my birthday is on the 10th), and November or December 1957. December 1957 is when we moved out to Suffolk. It also would have been when we still lived in Queens since I remember doing the transfer with my Dad up from the Lex BMT station to the IRT. Like I said, not sure if what I heard was a "deeper, growling" sound of the motors, but their groan/ hum was certainly much louder than the R9's and the whine ramped up to its top pitch much quicker than the R9's as well. I only really remember the Lo-V's when I began riding them on fantrips beginning in 1966. Their traction motors sounded closer (to me at least) to that of the R9's. At that young age, I did not know or was aware of the pre-war IRT fleet. The clearest memories, I have of our short Lex local journeys was that they were older cars; and I have vague memories of riding post war equipment back then as well on the Lex. Great memories of yours about the IRT controllers! Rode the D-types that I remember a couple of times w/family during the mid 60s. And only began riding the AB's in '66 or '67 when they were almost all on the Canarsie line. Rode them on Myrtle-Chambers in spring-summer '68 - that's when I was told by another railfan that they operated elsewhere besides the Canarsie line - see what I mean about not being a "city" city kid? |
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Posted by Stef on Wed Jan 7 14:53:45 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Jan 7 13:58:52 2015. I remember taking the Bx42 way back when; The run started in front of the store which was already closed when I was a youngster in the 80's. The Bx4 now originates on the side street at Bergen Av. My, how time flies! Hearns is now a variety of stores. Verizon, Dr. Jays, a Gamestop, and a Fish Market to name a few.I don't recall the Woolworth's Store; HL Green and McCrory's lasted until the early 90's, as did Pisers. My father purchased an old style GE TV from there (25", in the sylish wood grain cabinets offered for that time). Alexander's was on 3rd Av between East 152nd and East 153rd Sts; now a Conway's store. In the 80's it also had an annex (a separate store) which was mainly for electronics. But getting back to the topic of trains, I did not get the privilege of riding the 3rd Av El. Operation of the El had already folded when I was born in '75. Missed it by two years, shucks! -Stef |
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Re: What is this supposed to be? |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 15:19:38 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Jan 7 13:58:52 2015. Hello Larry (Redbird)There was something vibrant, exciting, mystical if so, a magical presence, if thats the word - an "aura" about that HUB area of the Bronx between 148th Street and 156th Street along and around the 3rd Ave EL and its (until 1954) Westchester Avenue Cutoff 2-track junction "Y" spur branch to the IRT West Farms EL 2 blocks away. Especially with the constant rumble, whine and groan of so many constant frequent wooden local and express EL Trains passing by overhead in those early to late 1950's (well, Steel Steinway 6-car trains thereafter by Jan 1, 1957). All those stores and daily crowds on the sidewalks of shoppers and pedestrians, business and just families and neighborhood people, very lively, and all those store colorful and varied display windows and blinking and flashing store signs and huge signs on the facades of buildings. And the large amount of bus and auto, truck traffic on all the streets around and under the EL. Truly indicated "BIG CITY" environment. And of course, the constant presence of those Red and Cream MACK and GMC old Look Transit busses of the SURFACE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM CORP. Even the 1950 abandoned trolley tracks were still on the avenue under the EL in places. My father and I went to the hub on numerous occasions - both by the EL and via his car, a then 1949 huge Mercury. There were quite a few office buildings in the immediate area, as well as the IRT Subway station below. I remember the old IRT ornamental entry Covered Kiosks well -- one was at the end of Melrose Ave where it met 3rd Ave.) I recall the RKO (was it ROYAL) Theatre on (the north side of) Westchester Avenue along the side of the West Farms spur branch (and remaining many years after the EL branch was removed by 1954)- and Davegas, SACHS, Alexanders, Hearns, Woolworth, all those department stores. It was like the Herald Square of the lower Bronx ! Around Christmas Dec. 1960 I shot, via tripod and 35mm camera, quite a number of early evening color slides on 3rd Avenue and along and around the EL in the immediate hub area after a moderate 2 to 3 inch snowfall -- showing all the stores, shop windows, christmas decorations and lights. I treasure those slides now - but then I was shooting what were simply regular commonplace scenes in the area at the time I was recording in the very cold night air ! It was sad to see how the area gradually declined in the late 1960's thru late 1970's; closed stores, abandoned properties, crime, trash and graffiti all over, somewhat grimy and desolate looking. The area has rebounded in the past decade, but without the EL, that original "aura" of very long ago, (50 to 60 years already!!) is gone. Thanks for your memories ! 
 regards - Joe F |
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Re: What is this supposed to be? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Jan 7 15:48:45 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Jan 6 22:52:16 2015. Re: "Most Hi-V trains then were Hi-V MUDC cars with "modified" Hi-V Gibbs, Hi-V Hedley Standard Body or Hi-V Deck Roof "Manually Operated Doors" cars on each end. I know YOU know WHY the manual door cars were in those positions there, as I do!"re: manually operated doors at each end of a train - were they in those positions so that there would only be two conductors needed per train, one for the manual end door and the other for the remainder MUDC's, or was there another reason? these cars with manually operated doors positioned at the ends of trains - these were the ones that were referred to as pilot motors right? or were pilot motors something else? Question, please confirm - "modified" Hi-V Gibbs" were those that had the air operated center door added, but still had manual end door operation right? re: experiencing the gradual tail end of so much of the unique variety of very old pre-war steel subway car and wooden "EL" car rolling stock I have a photo I bought (not on nycsubway.org unfortunately), of a Bluebird trainset at Atlantic Ave. In the background (at B'way/East NY) can be seen Multi's, AB's, and a train of BU's (Fulton-Lex?) with their center panels removed for the summer. You and others were so lucky to be around during this era - what an amazing time. It's a shame that no manual Hi-V consist was kept on the property and restored as the Lo-V's were (and I've read the story about how those were saved!), and that none of the BMT experimentals were saved either. And c'mon the second world war could have been won without having to destroy the Green Hornet for its aluminum.... |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Jan 7 15:52:39 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 15:19:38 2015. I want to walk right into these pictures!All are wonderful |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Jan 7 15:56:19 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Stef on Wed Jan 7 14:53:45 2015. Missed it by two years, shucks! - you have my sympathy on that, I missed amazing historic stuff too, but was lucky enough to ride the el w/Steinway Lo-v's and take some b & w photos, summer of '69, and ride and photograph Q's on the Myrtle, '68 & 69. |
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Re: What is this supposed to be? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Wed Jan 7 16:54:21 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Jan 5 19:35:22 2015. beautiful black and white photos |
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Re: What is this supposed to be? |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 18:24:50 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Express Rider on Wed Jan 7 15:48:45 2015. Hello Express RiderThe Manual Door Hi-V Motor Cars were "modified" with Door control motorman indication circuits...so that they could be line-connected with the circuit on the MUDC converted Hi-V cars which had (like Low-V's, and SMEE's) door indication control circuits. Also called Pilot Motors. In PRE-MUDC class rolling stock subway car days (at least on the IRT), the cars beginning with the original 1903-4 IRT COMPOSITE cars and 1904-5 steel Gibbs cars, and 1906 DECK ROOF cars, all 3 types were built WITHOUT center doors, and those cars were ALL hand-lever-control door cars. These cars had large levers located along each side of the end STORM door for conductors to operate the end vestibule doors on each side of his conductor position standing between each pair of cars. Just like manually operated gates on EL GATE cars on the El's. And prior to the motorman in-cab door indication circuit signal light (for all doors closed) - a series of ropes thru and between the cars, and clapper-equipped small gong-bells located in the vestibule ceilings of each car, were rung by each conductor in succession from rear to front car, on those earlier IRT subway trains of all manually-lever operated door cars, to notify the motorman in the first car (hearing his car's "bell" as the last bell being rung) that ALL manual doors were closed - and he could proceed out of the station. Just like the similar procedure on all elevated GATE CARS of the IRT system. ALL IRT subway cars retained the unused ropes and bells long after the MUDC door control system was installed and predominated the system, including the last surviving LOW-V CARS into 1964-4 (and Steinways up to late 1969 on Bronx 3rd Ave EL) ! The center doors were manually operated via a small lever and rod mounted below the center of each of the two end-face-windows at the car ends. These later installed center doors, cut into all Hi-V Composites, Gibbs and Deck Roof Cars, and as built new on Hedley standard body Hi-V cars, were remotely operated via mechanical rod-linkages connected to an air operated door motor. The 1910-16 "approx." built Standard Body Hedley Hi-V Cars, the FIRST steel IRT cars to be built with center doors, and many of the earliest built-with-center-doors Low-V Cars, also had manual door lever controls like their earlier breathern. Those earliest Low-V's were lated converted to MUDC, and all newer post 1920 built Low-V's were equipped as new with the MUDC feature. Most of the Hedley standard body ("approx." 1910-20 era) Hi-V Motor cars and their Hi-V Trailer cars, were made MUDC in the 1920's. Many Gibbs cars were years later made MUDC along with newly designed end vestibule side doors installed, and brand new standard sliding-into-pockets end storm doors with large storm door window similar to those on Deck Roof and later IRT cars. A small portion of the Hedley standard body and Gibbs Hi-V cars retained their manual doors for the reasons below explained. And ALL the 50 built Deck Roof cars, NEVER being converted to MUDC, retained their manual doors until their very early 1960's scrapping.. Because the earliest IRT subway routes in the approx. 1904 thru late 1940's - early 1950's periods, had local station platforms of 5 to 6 cars long, longer rush hour operated local trains of 6, 7, 8 cars had some head end and tail end cars out of platform in the tunnel wall at stations. So a normal local would be 4 or 5 cars off peak, and say, 6 or 7 cars in rush hour. By having a Manual Door car at each end of an MUDC consist, with the MUDC cars circuit "split" at middle of train, a conductor at each end of the train, one standing between the first two cars and one standing between the last 2 cars of the 6 or 7 car local train, could keep the some or all doors closed on the manual doors operated "point and tail" "modified" motor cars if either car was fully or partially in the non-platform tunnel area at local stations. On one side, the conductor had hand lever controls on one car, and MUDC door control buttons on the car on his opposite side. I hope all above details and explains the basic principals and history of it. regards - Joe F |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jan 7 19:29:05 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 5 20:48:19 2015. Now, having stuff fall in your lap was another story, right?:) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jan 7 19:56:56 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jan 7 19:29:05 2015. All part of the adventure of railroading. No brakes, no problem. :) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 01:40:01 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 18:24:50 2015. Joe, Thank you very much for your taking the time to write and clarify these details. :) Sometimes you hear bits and pieces verbally explained. A post such as yours is a much more complete explanation. re: longer rush hour operated local trains ... had some head end and tail end cars out of platform in the tunnel wall at stations. - My Dad remembered seeing this on the west side IRT. One more question please - another old time rail fan, has written me discussing the white lines under the number plates on the Gibbs cars. The most common explanation heard is that the white lines were applied under the number plates, so the Gibbs cars could be kept separately for local service (due to their narrower end doors). However this individual wrote me that he had been told, in addition, that these the white lined number plates, meant that said cars could only be operated in certain combinations. He said it was explained to him once, but he never took notes, and has since forgotten these details. Do you have any info on this? Also, I've seen pictures of IRT cars with red lines under their number plates - these were Steinways correct? Were they redlined like that to keep them separate when they were moved to the IRT mainlines or is there anothe explanation for them? Thank you very much in advance! |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 01:46:50 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Jan 6 20:54:14 2015. Again, to quote another poster, 'realism is stunning'!These are absolutely amazing! Thank you for sharing! and we should each hoist a pint remember Steve Zabel for your rooftop night shot! |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 8 02:17:41 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 01:46:50 2015. Heh. Zabel was quite the character. Motorman too. Ran into him once on the road and my partner filled me in on his exploits. Carried a bag of roll signs and other treats just to take some of those pictures. He was a madman so I was told. :) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 02:31:22 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 8 02:17:41 2015. Steve Zabel was known by many in the railfan community. I'd met him on fantrips and NY Div. meetings. He was a very nice guy, very friendly, and personable.I knew he'd become a motorman. At a Sunrise Trail meeting, George Abere spoke highly of him. He told me that he was manic (small "m" anecdotal description), and that he was so enthusiastic about the transit system, his activities would keep him up all night. He further told me that this lack of sleep caused him to have an accident - he dozed off and hit the bumper block of one of the pocket tracks at WTC. He loved Pittsburg's trolley system, and took many, now historic photos of its operations. |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 8 03:22:45 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 01:46:50 2015. Hello again Express RiderI also knew OF Steve Zabel - but never personally met him - but I heard from many sources back then that he was a TA employee, later motorman, long time railfan, and was constantly taking system and equipment photos - and was fairly nice guy if sort of an --ummm, unusual and unconventional type of guy - and later found out why and how he died (was it in 1984 or near that time) - was killed in his apartment by a friend-pal...stabbed, throat slashed, etc. Quite violent and very sad end. Thankfully thanks to his very extensive photography work, his thousands of now vintage photos survive him. Anyway, I hung off many rooftops during day and night hours many times - and in some snow storms and even rain - to get overhead photos along EL lines --- been there and done it. Its much "easier" now to do so now instead, heh, on my O-Scale EL Layout.... as per some real neighborhoods these days, much safer NOT to be on rooftops with cameras! I remember one day back in winter of 1963, during a snow storm and very FRIGID weather, my leaning over the roof of a 5 story building along the easterly side (the northbound NYW&B 2 tracks side) of the ex-NYW&B concrete 4 track trestle between E. 177th and E.178th streets, Bronx - to take photos of a long line of BRAND NEW 1964 Worlds Fair SMEE R-36 cars in Blue & White WF Colors -- being towed uphill into the E.180th St (abandoned) NYW&B Station - by another 10 car train "under power via 3rd rail only at its location on the trestle" of identical 1964 WF SMEES which backed southward to couple to the "dead" new cars. And was spinning its wheelsets to get traction on the slight upgrade during the tow job, heh ! Just a bit earlier a NEW HAVEN RR RS-3 diesel pushed the 15 new (but not yet operable) cars uphill from the NYW&B-NHRR track junction switch below the E.172nd st auto bridge. there was a small upright sign that was on the R-o-W that stated "NHRR CREWS TO STOP SHIPMENTS AT THIS POINT HERE". Still have the photos ! Thought I was going to freeze to death - I was 1/2 century MUCH younger back then, however, heh, and survived ! Those cars and that part of the NYW&B trestle south of E.180th St and its long earth embankment southward down to the NHRR-AMTRAK main - are all gone now and history ! regards - Joe F |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 8 03:49:25 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 02:31:22 2015. Yep. That pretty much fits the story I've heard as well, along with Joe's account. Only met him once, and didn't know him from Adam. He was like Dennis Riga as far as details went, without any of the overhead. :)I too went to work there because I loved trains, got cured of that within about two weeks. Teeyay did that to "buffs." Heh. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 8 12:28:56 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Jan 6 20:54:14 2015. So I forwarded links to an old friend who grew up in the Bronx. He was jazzed. in respect to this second set of pix he wrote"tnx. of course my favorite is the one with H&H!" I'll have a cinnamon roll. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 8 13:39:39 2015, in response to What is this supposed to be?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 3 18:43:25 2015. Good enough to be used in the movies. |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Thu Jan 8 14:12:33 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 15:19:38 2015. In the second picture, the street looks wet!--Mark |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 8 14:27:01 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 15:19:38 2015. ovely pix, amazing modeling! |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Jan 8 14:30:50 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 7 15:19:38 2015. looks like the real thingvery nice |
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Posted by Q4 on Thu Jan 8 14:52:11 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 8 03:22:45 2015. I would love to see those shots. Great layout, thank you so much for sharing. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Jan 8 15:43:05 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 8 03:22:45 2015. Hello Joe,Great story (and history too*). Glad you didn't freeze! Do you know about when the trestle south of 180th and the connecting embankment were razed/ dismantled? *You've probably seen the photos of new WF Steinways being towed by el cars from the NHRR property at 138th St. onto the el, for the move to Queens. These photos and yours are historic companions - separated by about 25 years. I found out about Steve in the most unusual and coincidental way. I lived in Boston for 20 years (1972-92). Was in school for a little while, then worked. Always meant to look up the Boston Street Railway Association & do more rail activities on the "T" as they call it, but was always busy with other things. One day I was over in Cambridge, in one of the dozen plus school buildings on the periphery of Harvard. I think I was there to speak with someone about a library staff position that might open up (it didn't). Anyway, I'm sitting outside the guy's office waiting for him to get off the phone or something. I noticed a waste basket next to where I'm sitting. I saw what I thought was a BSRA logo on one the papers sticking out of the basket so i took it out for a look. It was a BSRA flyer announcing upcoming programs. Interesting coincidence for me to find this, in a college building of all places, I thought (like it had been left there for me to find), since I'd never gotten around to contacting the BSRA. One of the programs listed in the flyer stated something like, we'll be including slides taken by the late Steve Zabel. 'The "late" Steve Zabel?' I thought, 'Oh my God, what the heck happened?' He was only older than me by about a year. I had not been active with the ERA since I moved to Boston, so this was a real and unpleasant surprise. I learned more after I moved back. Tragic. A real loss to the railfan community. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jan 9 05:57:01 2015, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Jan 5 05:32:48 2015. Those models - and the shots - are awesome! I'm amazed you were able to nail the lettering on the signs like that! Just fantastic! |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 22:26:00 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 8 03:22:45 2015. Hello again Express Rider Back on Jan 8, 2015 (over a year ago) I replied to you with the BELOW copy-pasted (edited down from original) message " quote -- ==================================================================== " ....... Anyway, I hung off many rooftops during day and night hours many times - and in some snow storms and even rain - to get overhead photos along EL lines --- been there and done it. Its much "easier" now to do so now instead, heh, on my O-Scale EL Layout.... as per some real neighborhoods these days, much safer NOT to be on rooftops with cameras! I remember one day back in winter of 1963, during a snow storm and very FRIGID weather, my leaning over the roof of a 5 story building along the easterly side (the northbound NYW&B 2 tracks side) of the ex-NYW&B concrete 4 track trestle between E. 177th and E.178th streets, Bronx - to take photos of a long line of BRAND NEW 1964 Worlds Fair SMEE R-36 cars in Blue & White WF Colors -- being towed uphill into the E.180th St (abandoned) NYW&B Station - by another 10 car train "under power via 3rd rail only at its location on the trestle" of identical 1964 WF SMEES which backed southward to couple to the "dead" new cars. And was spinning its wheelsets to get traction on the slight upgrade during the tow job, heh ! Just a bit earlier a NEW HAVEN RR RS-3 diesel pushed the 15 new (but not yet operable) cars uphill from the NYW&B-NHRR track junction switch below the E.172nd st auto bridge. there was a small upright sign that was on the R-o-W that stated "NHRR CREWS TO STOP SHIPMENTS AT THIS POINT HERE". Still have the photos ! Thought I was going to freeze to death - I was 1/2 century MUCH younger back then, however, heh, and survived ! Those cars and that part of the NYW&B trestle south of E.180th St and its long earth embankment southward down to the NHRR-AMTRAK main - are all gone now and history !......" ===================================================================== NOW to March 10, 2016 -- I recently found those photos in their photo album binder-book I made 52 years ago, heh, and finally had them scanned from each booklet page (one of my 4 binder books I created on the NYW&B Railway). They even have my 52 year old typewritten captions ! PS: I still use THAT typewrite regularly today ! These photo were taken by me way back in February 1964, 52 YEARS AGO,(gads time flew !) I think another person stated back in Jan 2015 that they would have liked to see the photos ! Well, I recently finally placed them in a newly created FLICKR PHOTO ALBUM - and here they are all public-access viewable via the Album LINK BELOW. ALSO, BELOW the link URL I attached three photos (with their captions) from the Album. NEW IRT 1964 N.Y. WORLDS FAIR R-33-36 CARS BEING DELIVERED FEB 1964 VIA EX-NYW&B RAILWAY BRONX E.172nd STREET NHRR JUNCTION 3 SAMPLE PHOTOS BELOW:    The ABOVE photo in Feb. 1964 is looking S/W on Lebanon Avenue, just south of the ex-NYW&B E.180th St Exp. Station, to the now gone NYW&B Steel 4 Track Trestle. The new R-33-36 cars are on the former N/B LOCAL track of the NYW&B RR AGAIN, Check the FLICKR PHOTO ALBUM for very many more photos -- I hope it was worth the one year WAIT ! ALSO - for those NEW VIEWERS to this Thread -- check out all the other material and photos in this one year old 2 page Thread Regards - Joe F |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 10 22:40:59 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 22:26:00 2016. Checked out some of the photos, they were AWESOME! Thanks for sharing them! |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 23:17:37 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 10 22:40:59 2016. Hello 3 -9Thanks - glad you enjoyed them !! Even tho "I" am still around now, heh, its hard to believe after 52 years that all that - The R-33-36 Cars as brand new back then, and the NYW&B Railway 4 Track massive steel & concrete decked Trestle from just above Lebanon St, south down to the earth 4 track embankment to E.172nd Street, is all gone since 2005-6. The E. 174th to 172nd Street NYW&B R-o-W is now redeveloped as part of a new City Park. The long removed earthern embankment is all re-developed up to Lebanon Street WELL, IF YOU LIVE LONG ENOUGH, YOU GET TO SEE SO MUCH AND MAYBE TOO MUCH ! Examples below in images!  ABOVE -S/W on Lebanon Avenue to east side of NYW&B Trestle Feb. 1964 and 52 years later -- below --  ABOVE - S/W on Lebanon Avenue east of the site of now long gone ex-NYW&B Steel Viaduct Trestle, in 2015, now the location of a brand new apartment building constructed in its place. Now I know how my long deceased (died at age 85 in 1971) Uncle felt when he told me back in the the early 1960's that he saw and remembered the first IRT Composites cars and steel Gibbs cars running brand new in the new 1904 IRT first subway line, those cars which he rode as a 14 year old boy and regularly later as a grown man for 45+ years --- and then seeing them removed (and scrapped, Composites 1950-51 and Gibbs Cars in 1958-60) for the "new trains" (heh, NOW scrapped). Regards - Joe F |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Mar 10 23:57:53 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 22:26:00 2016. OUTSTANDING! |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 11 00:08:32 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 23:17:37 2016. Great before and after shots!Yeah, I'm starting to feel that now, with the R-40 to R-46s heading for the scrapyard, and the R-62s and 68s already ~30 years old. Did they name the new developments anything significant, as an homage to the NYW&B? I know a development in the Bronx "next to" the Putnam's ROW is called the Putnam houses, for instance. |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 01:05:03 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 11 00:08:32 2016. Hello again 3-9 When a few years ago the new City Park and Greenway were developed along the Bronx River (both sides of the River) and from around the E.172nd Street Roadway Overpass north to about E.174th street area, it was suggested, and implemented, that the steel SIGNAL BRIDGE shown in my attached Feb 1964 photo - would be overhauled and restored as a static monument to the former NYW&B Railway and its R-o-W under the signal gantry as part of the greenway. You can see that Signal gantry Bridge in my photo BELOW  You can GOOGLE area views of this present area -- and see much of it from the street views. I think I saw a website with photos about and taken in this new park. I doubt there is any plaque or anything else (signs, photo mural, etc) about the NYW&B RR. But the Gantry bridge was saved. The former NYW&B RR R-o-W ground north to Lebanon street was all re-developed (most of it) with new buildings, parking lots, etc. Very little original ground remains -- I seem to recall in recent times, a small part of one block of R-o-W where the steel 4 track trestle once ran above - now with solely it concrete "column footings" all that remained in a few rows on the ground. The earthen embankment from the Trestle end (around E 177th St) south to E. 172nd Street (at AMTRAK R-o-W) was totally excavated and all that fill removed to provide flat ground for redevelopment. This went on in the period between 2006-2008. Joe F |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 01:15:06 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 01:05:03 2016. Hey Joe!Glad to hear there's still some remnants left. That gantry looks just so "New Haven" style. Thanks for the pics! I always had a soft spot for the old "New York, Westchester & Back." ;) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 05:44:32 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 01:15:06 2016. Hello KevinWell, other than the steel Catenary-Signal Bridge, there is nothing whatsoever remaining nor recognizable of the entire NYW&B R-o-W north from the Junction near E. 173rd street to the ex-NHRR, now AMTRAK Mainline, to where the short 1/2 block long stub remains of the steel Viaduct just below the east 180th Street ex-NYW&B express station. BELOW is an image of a map plan of the area showing the location of the removed NYW&B 4-track R-o-W within the new Park grounds, and the saved Signal Gantry bridge  The BELOW TWO photos were taken from the E.174th Street roadway bridge showing the grounds totally cleared and leveled flat where the 4 track NYW&B embankment gradually rose upward and headed north towards the Steel Trestle and the ex-NYW&B's E.180th St. Station. The Signal Gantry bridge is shown remaining, and it was restored as a landmark and the only surviving remnant in that area of the NYW&B RR.   The last image below is a straight south view along the center line(between where the 2 center express tracks were located) of the once 4-track NYW&B railway R-o-W - showing the saved Signal Gantry bridge - where the 4 track line descended the slightly curving embankment and passed under the, seen just further below, E.174th Street Auto Bridge, where the 4 tracks merged into 2 tracks, and joined running parallel to the west edge of the NHRR (now AMTRAK) 4 track R-o-W  These photos are also on my ALBUM SET (just added) and will serve to show the before and present visual arrangement of the immediate area. There are a number of Websites featuring this new Greenway Park, said Park Grounds have been completely finished in this area for about 2 years now. regards - Joe F |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:49:24 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 05:44:32 2016. Hey, guy! :)Glad to see that SOMETHING got saved at least ... you've been around long enough as well too that you realize that if ANYTHING gets saved in the city, it's amazing right there. Thanks for the pics, was saddened to hear that the Empty-yay sold off all that land, but then again, no surprise. At least there's a park there instead of more condos. Viva El Bronx! (grin) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 11 08:55:37 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 05:44:32 2016. Damn.That is a sad sight. Looks like the MTA shot off its own foot to make a few bucks. They never really had any interest in reusing the old row for subways..just more lip service. |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 11 09:06:30 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 22:26:00 2016. Superb!! Awesome photos in all your recent posts! And thanks for making a flickr album! You are a gentleman of the highest caliber! My captain, my captain!! |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 11:43:22 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Mar 10 22:26:00 2016. HI JOE,LONG TIME SINCE WE TALKED.GREAT SHOTS OF THINGS I,VE NEVER SEEN.A FEW QUESTION IF YOU PLEASE.WHO BUILT THE TRACK CONNECTION BETWEEN THE T.A.TRACKAGE & THE NHRR AND WHEN WAS THE 3RD.RAIL INSTALLED UP TO,BUT NOT INTO THE NHRR? SURE AM GLAD YOU TOOK PHOTOS OF THE CONNECTING SWITCH INTO NHRR ROW.I,M ASSUMING THE BALLAST CARS WERE WERE DRILLED BY T.A.DIESELS IN THE RIGHT HAND PHOTOS.ANY SHOTS OF THE CONN.BEING BUILT? |
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Posted by BMRR on Fri Mar 11 12:08:51 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 05:44:32 2016. Joe,Thanks for posting these pictures. The NYW&B RR had a short life, I am glad to see some history preserved. Wonder who made that happen? The other Kevin |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 12:10:41 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 11:43:22 2016. I REMEMBER IN 1967 I HAD A DELIVERY TO THE E180ST.STATION[NY,W&B] I SAW A NHRR SWITCHER PUSHING A STRING OF BALLAST CARS UP THE INCLINE TO LAY THEM UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRESTLE.THIS BLEW MY MIND! WOW!A RAILROAD TRAIN ON "SUBWAY"TRACKAGE. WHEN I GOT TO THE STATION A LOW-V.WORK TRAIN WAS GOING TO HOOK UP THE CARS,NATURALLY I JUMPED ON BOARD.WE WENT FROM THE S/B TRACK TO THE N,B TRACK.WHAT WAS REALLY UNUSAL WAS THE THE M/M OPENED UP THE LEFT DOOR,PUT THE REVERSE KEY IN "NEUTRAL"LEFT THE CONTROLLER AND WAS LOOKING OUT THE OPEN DOOR.I THOUGHT HE WAS GONNA JUMP!WE MADE THE HITCH& PULLED THE CARS INTO THE STATION WHERE I GOT OFF.I,M PROBABLY THE ONLY ONE ON THIS BOARD THAT RODE THIS VERY UNUSUAL SECTION OF TRACKAGE' |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 12:10:41 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 11:43:22 2016. I REMEMBER IN 1967 I HAD A DELIVERY TO THE E180ST.STATION[NY,W&B] I SAW A NHRR SWITCHER PUSHING A STRING OF BALLAST CARS UP THE INCLINE TO LAY THEM UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRESTLE.THIS BLEW MY MIND! WOW!A RAILROAD TRAIN ON "SUBWAY"TRACKAGE. WHEN I GOT TO THE STATION A LOW-V.WORK TRAIN WAS GOING TO HOOK UP THE CARS,NATURALLY I JUMPED ON BOARD.WE WENT FROM THE S/B TRACK TO THE N,B TRACK.WHAT WAS REALLY UNUSAL WAS THE THE M/M OPENED UP THE LEFT DOOR,PUT THE REVERSE KEY IN "NEUTRAL"LEFT THE CONTROLLER AND WAS LOOKING OUT THE OPEN DOOR.I THOUGHT HE WAS GONNA JUMP!WE MADE THE HITCH& PULLED THE CARS INTO THE STATION WHERE I GOT OFF.I,M PROBABLY THE ONLY ONE ON THIS BOARD THAT RODE THIS VERY UNUSUAL SECTION OF TRACKAGE' |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 11 12:26:30 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 12:10:41 2016. The Lo-V cars themselves pulled the "STRING OF BALLAST CARS"? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 11 12:51:46 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 01:05:03 2016. The structure was torn down in 1997. People even posted about it on that newfangled Internet, which they had on computers at the time. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 12:57:27 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 11 12:26:30 2016. yup. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 13:02:22 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Mar 11 12:51:46 2016. I WALKED UP TO THE DRILL OPERATOR WHO WAS DRILLING THRU THE TRESTLE,HE SAID HE WAS HAVING A HARDER TIME THAN EXPECTED.GOES TO SHOW ME IT WAS BUILT FOR THE AGES.I FELT A SENCE OF LOSS WATCHING IT BEING TORN DOWN. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 11 16:06:01 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by Edwards! on Fri Mar 11 08:55:37 2016. The MTA probably did have an interest in using the entire NYW&B ROW but with the rampant budget mismanagement in the agency, just gave up on the idea. While the original plans for the SAS in the BX called for it to take over the Pelham line and the Dyre Line, later plans were revised and pelham was to be left with the IRT Lex and the SAS was to have taken over the Wh Pl Rd line N/O e180 instead. In any case it doesn’t look like any of that will happen now unless with typical MTA wastefulness, a new connection most likely a subway is constructed to connect the lower part of the NYW&B ROW to the old E-180 St station at much greater expense than maintaining the original viaduct. I looked at some of those photos and was thinking that if the connection had been made and operate it would have been one hell of a ride up that viaduct and into E 180. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Mar 11 16:07:22 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 13:02:22 2016. If I recall Roger Arcara’s book on the NYW&B mentioned that the RR was a bit overbuilt. |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 16:20:57 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Mar 11 09:06:30 2016. Thank you Brian for those nice comments. I also enjoy the excellent photos you have on your Website (which I bookmarked long ago).An old friend and now long deceased Traction Magazine publisher-owner and legend (whom I wrote some articles for in the early 1980's) -- VANE JONES, of "Traction & Models Magazine" --- had a saying which was on the masthead of ALL of his magazines: "KNOWLEDGE IS USELESS UNLESS SHARED" I have all his magazine issues since the first one in mid 1964, thru nearly 3 following decades, to its last issue a few years after his death. So I also try to make my very few rare occasional posts here to be interesting, and history and historical-trivia filled, so as to share and preserve what once was - and was part of my life and the lives of so many of us, a number of whom have sadly deceased over the past few years, for those around who may still remember, and / or are even interested in this material. Here is an IRT EL scene "from the past" as photo-replicated-documented on my O Scale NYC EL Layout; I am sure many recognize the rolling stock, heh !  Regards - Joe F |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 16:41:00 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by randyo on Fri Mar 11 16:07:22 2016. SLIGHTLY,TO SAY THE LEAST. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Mar 11 17:24:39 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 16:20:57 2016. well, your work is excellent, andI totally agreew/ Vane Jones comment. |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Mar 11 17:41:37 2016, in response to Re: What is this supposed to be?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Mar 11 12:57:27 2016. Hello Brian and SteveYES Brian, Hopper Car work trains were originally towed by Surplus IRT HI-V Steel Motor Subway Cars in the early to mid 1950's -- the H-150-160 series "black" Hoppers were the first AAR made Hopper Cars by MAGOR Car in the very early 1950's to Railroad Standards but were NINE FEET WIDE to clear IRT subway tunnels. Low-V surplus motor cars replaced the Hi-V Motors by 1960, and these consists were routinely seen on many lines. Here is one of my photos JUST BELOW taken at E.180th Street showing IRT Hi-V motors towing hoppers (seen on curve beyond station platform - you can see the NYW&B Trestle-Viaduct at left, with Hopper cars on them  The bottom two photos, courtesy of pal Dave Pirmann, show Hoppers in Low-V Work trains.   Somewhere I have a photo of BMT EL QX ALL MOTOR "A" cars on each end nof 4 hopper cars - on the Jamaica EL, in the 1950's regards - Joe F |
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