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| Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps (1243575) | |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 17:03:30 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 14:23:43 2013. when was the concrete station box put in for Broadway- East NY? Before or after the War? |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Aug 26 17:13:47 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 17:03:30 2013. before,from what I,ve read in ERA articles. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:22:46 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:23:39 2013. Not anal. We just want to be historically accurate. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:23:28 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:56:42 2013. Not unlikely! |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:28:35 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 26 16:21:57 2013. Despite the Central Park tree huggers forcing the IND CPW line to be built the way it was, it could be possible that the original alignment of the Morningside Av line might have been under the park with entrances under the sidewalk although on the park side rather than the off side. At the time it was originally planned, there were still streetcars on CPW and a cut and cover under park property rather the street itself would have had less of an impact on street traffic. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:38:21 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Aug 26 17:13:47 2013. That would be about right. Once unification was achieved, the interest would have been to coordinate with rather than compete with the former private companies. The Fulton St subway was swung slightly north off Fulton St and under Truxton Pk to facilitate the transfer between the Fulton St Line and the rest of the BMT Eastern which the BMT Fulton St el did not have. It seems that the trackways, platform and station finish as well as the subway infrastructure to Euclid (76 St?) were completed before the US involvement in WWII. Our participation in the war prevented any further work from being done until 1946 when ENY was finished and opened. I've seen some contract drawings for the Fulton St Line S/O ENY and had those stations been completed prior to the war, they would have been identical in design to the older IND stations. Since the station finishes S/O ENY unlike ENY itself were done after the war they utilized a different style of tile although still in keeping with the IND station color system. I often wondered why Grant was done the way it was since If it properly followed the IND color system it should have been the same as Euclid. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Aug 26 19:53:17 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:38:21 2013. Broadway-East New York was tiled before the war....but it couldnt be used because it had no metal for tracks or signaling so Rockaway Ave was used instead as a terminal. Liberty,van siclen, shepard, and euclid (and 76th?) were completed as well as the tjnnels but the finishing like tiles etc were not yet done till after the war....thats also why the style is different....yet Broadway East New york (bway junction) had old style IND tiles. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by NorthShore on Mon Aug 26 20:37:20 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:28:35 2013. The entrances may have looked similar to the BMT Fifth Avenue Station entrances in Central Park. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Aug 26 21:26:06 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:23:39 2013. ...with tunnel vision!!:) |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 26 23:37:07 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 07:33:29 2013. Also, the S/B track DESCENDS AGAIN just before 42nd St. If anything, they needed to skew the platforms to allow the S/B track to descend - you can clearly see the ramp from the uptown platform. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 26 23:53:12 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 26 08:43:43 2013. Wow, you mean that's 32nd and 7th? What a big difference between that and 11 Penn Plaza. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:04:02 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:57:51 2013. That's odd though. With so much of lower level City Hall completed, why waste resources building a "temporary" ramp? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 00:14:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:04:02 2013. That would indeed make more sense, with the upper level acting as a mezzanine. The current configuration does permit the use of the unused platform as for layups. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 00:14:23 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:04:02 2013. That would indeed make more sense, with the upper level acting as a mezzanine. The current configuration does permit the use of the unused platform as for layups. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:19:32 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:18:59 2013. If they ended up eliminating the el west of Myrtle Ave, maybe they would have merged the Jamaica el with the southern portion of the Myrtle Ave el. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 00:35:29 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:22:46 2013. thank you! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:38:48 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:12:19 2013. On the other side of the fare control was a very old wall (don't know if it was original or not, but it had ancient tile on it.Probably not original, since there were stairways behind it, but possibly dating as far back as the IND construction, since the connecting stairs were built relative to the wall (as opposed to an indent in the wall, for example). |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 00:43:46 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:19:32 2013. That would not have been a great idea, the Jamaica el was dual contracts, might as well connect it into the subway. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 00:50:36 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 26 23:53:12 2013. The Greyhound terminal was between 33 and 34 St just east of 8th Av. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:52:59 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 14:44:50 2013. Ah, OK. Yes, I was thinking of the area in the last picture, which is where I saw the abandoned stairways and plumbing. I don't remember the jailed area at all, and unfortunately nycsubway.org didn't have pictures of that area. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 01:02:32 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by VictorM on Tue Aug 27 00:50:36 2013. OK, that makes more sense, the construction there is much newer. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 01:05:17 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 18:22:46 2013. In other words, anal. Doing that is the very definition of the colloquialism |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:17:05 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 15:04:38 2013. True on Canal Street:A Worth Street crosstown and tunnel to Brooklyn would have been a valid reason to have the 8th Avenue line be an express stop at Canal Street (main exit actually at Walker Street). As for Queens Boulevard, they likely were not sure the connection to the former LIRR line (or any other connections) would ever be built, which would likely explain that part of why 63rd Drive was never made into an express stop (or wasn't thought to be one when the line was originally built). |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:20:10 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 20:04:09 2013. The IRT was on Lafayette (Elm). Right in the center. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:26:07 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sun Aug 25 21:09:30 2013. It does need to be remembered at the time the 8th Avenue line was built, Madison Square Garden ran from 49th-50th Streets and 8th-9th Avenues. That's why there was a 49th Street exit on the lower level (that was never reopened on the northbound side, but was on the southbound side when Worldwide Plaza opened), probably to allow those coming from/going to Queens to/from the old MSG to be able to enter separately from those looking for Manhattan.In retrospect, as MSG was at 50th/8th at that time, why wasn't that made into an express station? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:29:19 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sun Aug 25 21:12:42 2013. Who's "Hyland?" |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 01:29:58 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 01:05:17 2013. who's anal? you? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:38:07 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 15:51:11 2013. I wouldn't use any medical condition.I know "anal retentive" is technically the name of a psychological condition, but nobody's really a Freudian anymore. |
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| (1244378) | |
If the Broadway Line had been built north of 57th-7th |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:41:31 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 26 07:08:58 2013. What might have then happened was the CPW line might very well have run under the current Broadway-7th Avenue line until what is now Lincoln Center and then up Columbus (9th) avenue, with three lines today on the west side north of 59th instead of two. |
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Re: Times Square IRT station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:44:25 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:44:31 2013. Yes, but they should have realized Times Square was about to become a huge area. Had they, Times Square and possibly 50th Street and Columbus Circle might very well have been built as express stations with 72nd Street becoming a local station. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:45:45 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:39:02 2013. I do. They built it in a day like Rome. |
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Re: 50th Street/8th Avenue IND Station |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:47:08 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 07:31:42 2013. And that was because of Madison Square Garden being there (until February 1968, why the station was on two platforms I believe). |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 01:55:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:45:45 2013. haha |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Aug 27 03:40:54 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:52:59 2013. Yeah....once i thought about it...i figured thats what you meant.Yeah no photos of it on nycsubway.org....I used the station every day back in 1988 to 1990 saw saw it all first hand....wish i took photos. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:41:11 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Aug 26 19:53:17 2013. That isn't any different from what I posted! However Rocky Av was used as a terminal long before the final configuration of the Fulton St subway was agreed upon. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:42:55 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:20:10 2013. I think the IRT referred to is the 7 Av west side leg. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Aug 27 03:43:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 27 00:43:46 2013. They should have done it with Fulton el too....the rebuilt portion was identically built to Broadway and Jamaica els. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Aug 27 03:44:55 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:38:48 2013. Yes. I am thinking it may have dated to the Ind construction on that side. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:47:05 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:29:19 2013. Hylan was the mayor of NYC in the 1910- 1925 or so era. Prior to entering politics, he was an engineer on the BRT els in the steam days and he allegedly operated his train too fast around a curve to the annoyance of a trainmaster who discovered Hylan reading his law books at the controls of his steam loco. The result was Hylan's firing from the job and thus Hylan had it in for all the private transit companies after that. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Aug 27 03:47:25 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:57:51 2013. Interesting.... |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:48:10 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 01:45:45 2013. But Rome WASN'T built in a day! |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:49:38 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:17:05 2013. Actually, the provision for a QB exp stop was at Woodhaven Blvd. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:52:35 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Tue Aug 27 00:04:02 2013. Because, the upper level tracks led relatively "straight" rail into Canal upper whereas bringing the lower level to Canal upper would have required a Xover move S/O Canal even if the switches were left permanently in the reverse position. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:57:25 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Aug 27 03:43:03 2013. The problem with the FUlton El as I have mentioned in many posts is that for political reasons, the el structure between Penna Av and Grant as well as the entire structure west of Nostrand SAv was never upgraded to dual contract standards. That prevented any realistic combination of any subway with the Fulton St el. Had the portion of the Fulton El east of Penna Av been upgraded it is likely that the IND Fulton St subway would have connected to it some where in the area of Bway Jct and operated all the way from there to Lefferts instead of the way it is now. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:57:51 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by NorthShore on Mon Aug 26 20:37:20 2013. Good point. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 06:15:46 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:48:10 2013. he knows Rome was not built in a day. the actual impact of the rise of Rome was felt as from the 16th century (around 753BC) to the 18th century. During this period Rome experienced many changes in its technological advancement. |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 06:18:15 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:49:38 2013. At Woodhaven Boulevard at each end of the station a bellmouth exists in the tunnel walls (N/B & S/B), where the tunnels widen to allow conversion to an express station. If you look carefully, these bellmouths don't branch out so much as they veer away, but they still point ahead. The bellmouths abruptly ends on both sides of the station. |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 08:06:02 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 27 01:17:05 2013. As for Queens Boulevard, they likely were not sure the connection to the former LIRR line (or any other connections) would ever be builtThat's totally not true, as at some stations, they even put in mosaics that said something to the effect of "To the Rockaways". As for 63rd Drive, that was never intended to be an express stop. Woodhaven Blvd however has provision to be converted. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 08:12:19 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 03:57:25 2013. Yes, it was only upgraded from just east of the Franklin station to Atlantic Ave station. Still, a shame. A beautiful rebuilt el structure, identical to the Broadway El and Jamaica El (and the Myrtle at Knickerbocker and Central), was destroyed after not even 30 years of service. |
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Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 27 08:14:42 2013, in response to Re: IND Canal Street and Queens Boulevard Connections, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Aug 27 08:06:02 2013. That's totally not true, as at some stations, they even put in mosaics that said something to the effect of "To the Rockaways".65th st, 67th ave, 63rd drive and woodhaven blvd stations had the "JAMAICA AND ROCKAWAY ⤴" signs hanging over the stairways to the platforms as late as the 1980s. |
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