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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012

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Sometimes it takes a while for things to come together...

NYCT (apparently) has a disposition contract Frontier Industrial Corp. for the disposition of 277 R-44 subway cars and an undetermined number of retired work and surplus passenger cars. This includes every single R-44 that was on NYCT property, including SIR's 402.

The R-44's are being loaded on a cradle at 207 Street shops daily (at least including Saturdays, maybe Sunday, too) and driven across the GWB to New Jersey. Destination across the river is less certain but believed to be Croxton (NS) or North Bergen (CSX). From there they go by rail (flatcar) to Pioneer's rending facilities in Ohio, just as were Metro-North's M-1's, as well as the PATH subway cars (though they went all the way by truck). I believe the Ohio facility is somewhere in the vicinity of Ashtabula.

In any case, approximately 27 R-44's departed NYCT property in the month of June, another dozen or so in July thus far. At the rate of movement given the large quantity of cars, it is likely this part of the process will continue into early 2013.

I do not as yet have car numbers as to what has been removed or what remains, so if "anyone" out there would enjoy a good sweat and care to do a little "field" research, please advise of your findings.

Happy Hunting and Thanks in advance.

George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 15 13:45:44 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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What was wrong with 402 ?

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by William A. Padron on Sun Jul 15 13:55:21 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 15 13:45:44 2012.

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#402 was damaged in a derailment along the line after it jumped the tracks, as I recall. SIRTOA did not want fix up the car after that, so the fleet simply went down to 63 available cars.

-William A. Padron
["Tottenville"]


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(1166764)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 15 14:13:12 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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(1166769)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jul 15 14:55:13 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by William A. Padron on Sun Jul 15 13:55:21 2012.

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wow..so they werent kidding...
they are gone for good.

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(1166776)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Jul 15 15:45:10 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Some photos on Facebook show 5250-5251; also 5417-16.

wayne


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(1166779)

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(Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 15 16:15:39 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Who are you replying to?

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(1166798)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Dan on Sun Jul 15 18:28:03 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Edwards! on Sun Jul 15 14:55:13 2012.

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Except of course for the 63 R44SI cars still chugging along the SIR.

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(1166799)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by mike cruz on Sun Jul 15 18:50:34 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Dan on Sun Jul 15 18:28:03 2012.

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surprised they didn't just transfer a R44 from 207 to SIR to replace 402.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 15 19:02:49 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by mike cruz on Sun Jul 15 18:50:34 2012.

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Then you have GE verses WH.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Jul 15 19:04:24 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by mike cruz on Sun Jul 15 18:50:34 2012.

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Too may modifications needed.

Different controller........2 air gagues vs. one...........more grab irons on the side.

Just too expensive.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Caz on Sun Jul 15 19:49:05 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Some of the cars can be seen from Routes 1/9 near Newark in Naporano Iron & Metal's yard. This is just before the NB approach to the Pulaski Skyway.

Caz

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Jul 15 20:01:22 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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I saw the pictures on Facebook---so the cars are being shredded instead of being reefed?

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Jul 15 20:38:33 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Jul 15 20:01:22 2012.

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it seems the stainless steel cars cannot support marine life that grows on surfaces they can`t adhere to it.DUH!didn`t any body think of this before they were reefed? Oh wait,this was done by the same wonderfull guys who designed the new south ferry station with out waterproofing,silly me.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 15 20:46:29 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by mike cruz on Sun Jul 15 18:50:34 2012.

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How many "spares" does SIRTOA have? Would it have been worth it to increase their fleet with a few that were still useable (if any)?

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by ClearAspect on Sun Jul 15 21:27:23 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Na-na-na-na-na-na HEEEEEYYYYY GOODBYE!

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jul 16 00:26:04 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jul 15 20:46:29 2012.

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NO

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 06:46:10 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Slightly off topic, and we may have discussed this before, so excuse me, but on Saturday, I rode the LIRR from Nostrand Ave to Jamaica...pulling in to Jamaica I noticed a very beat up looking M1 sitting all by itslef jsut as we exited the Atlantic Avenue tunnel. Anyone know that car's story, Are they trying to save it for a museum, or did the scrapper just miss it?

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 06:51:40 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Thanks for sharing this info. Do you know what work equipment is being scrapped- R37 locomotives, maybe? Also, are there any "surplus" passneger cars? Seems like we need 'em all.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by merrick1 on Mon Jul 16 06:53:30 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Jul 15 20:01:22 2012.

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There shouldn't be any asbestos in them. So why not scrap them?

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 07:28:42 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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Another piece of my childhood goes away. I remember riding the R-44's on the QB line when they came to the line in or about 1974. They were such a huge departure from the ancient (but beloved) Arnines still running on the F line then and the extremely noisy R-32's and R-38's. The R-44 had amazing a/c, it was quiet enough to allow a normal conversation, it had the unique interior, the chimes and had the sideways seating. To a nine year old, it was like sci-fi.

Getting old.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 16 09:22:45 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 07:28:42 2012.

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I rode a 44 (north motor 160) on the F in August 1972, I think they started earlier that year (based on pics I've seen on nycsubway.org). I didn't ride one earlier b/c I was living in Illinois back then, and was only in NYC for the summer.


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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Jul 16 09:58:43 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Widecab5 on Sun Jul 15 11:06:42 2012.

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George: Thank you for the update on the R-44's and for all the fine information that you have provided us with.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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(1166891)

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by R30A on Mon Jul 16 10:35:53 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Jul 15 20:38:33 2012.

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No, the stainless steel cars certainly can support marine life. I suspect the reason the R44s aren't being reefed is at least in part due to the interior having substantially less metal, and substantially more materials which require removal prior to reefing.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 16 11:24:27 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by ClearAspect on Sun Jul 15 21:27:23 2012.

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Yeah. Let off some Steam.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 16 11:27:08 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 07:28:42 2012.

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Yeah the change from the R-9s to the R 44s had to have been the most dramatic in subway car history. Can't believe they won't be saving one for the museum. Our grandchildren need to see that contrast.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 12:33:04 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Jul 16 09:22:45 2012.

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Its entirely possible that it was that early. Back then, I only used to ride the subways once or twice per months during the fall and winter months, when I visited my pediatric allergist in Manhattan with my mother (I've had asthma since the age of 16 months). During those trips, we usually got either an Arnine (which I remember riding to this day) or an R32 or R38, both of which were terribly noisy at tunnel speeds. I might have missed the R44's when they first came out, but when I finally got on one, it was quite something.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 16 12:34:22 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 06:46:10 2012.

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I believe that's the car they use on the sand (fall) or alcohol (winter) train.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jul 16 12:34:22 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 06:46:10 2012.

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I believe that's the car they use on the sand (fall) or alcohol (winter) train.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 12:37:01 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 16 11:27:08 2012.

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The funny thing is, the introduction of the Arnine's and the R44's were only about 40 years apart, yet them seem much further apart in design and technology. I think that's because the Arnines were not cutting edge when they were introduced - the City opted for rugged, dependable design and ease of repair over modern technology (much as the MTA later did with the R-68's) when choosing the first IND car design. The Arnines were not that different than the BMT Standards, which had been running on the BMT since 1913, almost 20 years before the IND opened.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by bklyntekgeek on Mon Jul 16 13:13:22 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 12:37:01 2012.

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I'm going to miss the R-44's. The R-44's have been the signature train on the A line. Since I moved to Brooklyn in the late 1980's, the R-44's took me to grade school to marriage life.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Jul 16 15:46:49 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by bklyntekgeek on Mon Jul 16 13:13:22 2012.

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I agree with the 44s being the signature train on the (A) line. I was born in 91 and when my sister lived in ENY I had many rides on 32s on the (C) and saw the 44s on express A line as a upgrade. Also whenever they left a express station at the same time the 44s always took off faster.

I will miss them, smooth ride, great A/C, fast, etc, I would have never thought the 32s would outlive them.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 16 16:38:50 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by merrick1 on Mon Jul 16 06:53:30 2012.

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Did they ever have asbestos ?

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 16 16:42:07 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 06:46:10 2012.

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If it was a pair of 9700's, they are privately owned for preservation.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 16 16:45:14 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 12:37:01 2012.

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The Arnines was more primitive than the BMT Standard, and more akin to a Lo-V.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 17:58:31 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Jul 16 15:46:49 2012.

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Quite a few of us on this forum actually think of the signature train on the A line as being the R-10s. For all the time I lived in Washington Hts from the time the R-10s were delivered until I moved to Bkln in 1974, the R-10s were the backbone of the A Line with a few trains of R-42s and 44s thrown in in the early 1970s for political correctness.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 18:07:04 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Joe V on Mon Jul 16 16:45:14 2012.

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In certain ways, the R-9s were slightly less technologically advanced than the BMT steels but their braking and motor control systems were better. I have always suspected that the reasons the R-9s lacked certain of the features of the BMT equipment had to do with the patents on such things as tripcocks that reset from the cab and running lights that changed when the reverser was thrown. Since the IND was initially a tool of Hylan, I don't think he wanted the city to reward what was essentially the IND's competition by paying out any royalties. As for the lack of inside door controls, even the BMT had switched to outside door operation with the D types rather than retaining the inside door controls of the steels but I never understood why. From what I have seen of other transit systems, it looks like that state of the art for rapid transit cars from the 1920s even into the 1950s was to have the C/R operate the doors from between the cars rather than from inside.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jul 16 18:15:33 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jul 16 06:51:40 2012.

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If you re-read the OP it clearly states "...........an undetermined number of work and surplus passenger cars".

I think that answered it.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Jul 16 20:30:09 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 17:58:31 2012.

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At least one group of R44s served their entire lives on the "A" line (original numbers 336-387).

wayne


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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Jul 16 20:40:23 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 16 12:33:04 2012.

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I caught my first one in late May of 1972. I was on my way home from my friend's house on the west side and saw it pulling out of 47th-50th Street as my "D" train pulled in. I chased it all the way to CI and had the pleasure of riding it all the way back to 169th Street.

(N) 140-143-111-156 || 104-133-101-100 (S)

wayne

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Westcode44 on Mon Jul 16 22:04:21 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Jul 16 20:40:23 2012.

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At that time they sported a 'G4B' operating unit, P Wire, provisions for ATO, and a WABCO D3 Compressor.-(some were carpeted) ALL were assigned to Jamaica.

WE-44



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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Jul 16 22:14:16 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Westcode44 on Mon Jul 16 22:04:21 2012.

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After the whole fleet came aboard, they broke into three groups: 100-259 at Jamaica for the "E" and "F"; 260-335 (with 328-335 being carpeted) to Concourse for the "D" and 336-399 to 207 St/Pitkin for the "A".

-w-

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Westcode44 on Mon Jul 16 22:24:22 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Jul 16 22:14:16 2012.

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-w- when did 388-399 go to SIRTOA.? I am also trying to remember the 'STARS-R44s' that were tested and outfitted with A/C motors.

WE-44


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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jul 17 05:11:05 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Westcode44 on Mon Jul 16 22:24:22 2012.

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After GOH.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by 5119 on Tue Jul 17 07:44:47 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 18:07:04 2012.

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Except for the Broad Street and Bridge cars in Philiadelphia. They had interior door controls. They reminded me of the R15's-22's the way the conductor would open and close his window.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by William A. Padron on Tue Jul 17 09:46:33 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by randyo on Mon Jul 16 17:58:31 2012.

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>>Quite a few of us on this forum actually think of the signature train on the A line as being the R-10s.<<

And one of those "few" also that still thinks that way too myself, with the R-10's being the true "champion" (in author James Greller's words) of the IND "A" line back then. All 400 of them were first sent to that line, and spending about 3/4's of its service life mostly there on that route. For me, that's enough said!

-William A. Padron
["Wash.Hts.-8th Av.Exp."]



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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by BLE-NIMX on Tue Jul 17 10:17:05 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jul 17 05:11:05 2012.

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You sure that wasn't that R38 set, 4040-4049 with the Toshiba traction motors, or was there an R44 retro after 2002? I don't remember any R44s with anything A.C. except maybe something done with the air conditioning

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Jul 17 11:33:03 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Jul 16 20:40:23 2012.

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I caught my first one in late May of 1972.

Wayne: I think you beat me by a month on that. I was stationed in Spain, just outside of Madrid when the R-44's came in. I returned to New York in the middle of June and actually lived in Brooklyn for several months.
I seem to recall taking my first ride on the R-44's on an F train out of 4 Avenue. One of the interesting features of these cars was that the wall panels were decorated with miniature reproductions of the seals of New York City and New York State.

Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33


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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by R30A on Tue Jul 17 12:05:36 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Jul 17 11:33:03 2012.

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While the R44, R46, and M1-M6 all appear to have the same interior pattern, they do not!

R44/R46 have NYS and NYC alternating.
M1/M3 have NYS only
M2/M4/M6 have NYS and CT alternating.

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Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44

Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jul 17 14:07:20 2012, in response to Re: (Belated) Requiem for the R-44, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jul 16 18:15:33 2012.

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Well, sorta. I was wondering of any of you "insiders" were willing to share any inside info....

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