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Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by seabeachexpress on Mon Apr 9 13:11:50 2012

I saw a few pics from 1948 nycsubway.org showing the middle track south of Wyckoff. Does anyone know when the track was removed and the track covered over at Wyckoff?

(1149792)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 9 13:29:50 2012, in response to Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by seabeachexpress on Mon Apr 9 13:11:50 2012.

Sometime in the early 50's. All the Frank Pfueler and George Conrad pics dated to the 50's show the track gone:

1955 Knickerbocker:



Undated Central, but cannot be later than 1958 due to gate car still in service:



Given the track connected to nothing north of the junction near Bushwick Ave, it had little or no use from the day it was installed. I've never seen a picture with a train on it.


(1149793)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 9 13:34:33 2012, in response to Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by seabeachexpress on Mon Apr 9 13:11:50 2012.

Manhattan bound on Myrtle would put that track section NORTH of Wyckoff. Myrtle is now NORTHBOUND leaving Met!!!!!

(1149798)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 9 13:43:24 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 9 13:34:33 2012.



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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Apr 9 14:11:44 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 9 13:29:50 2012.

It was originally meant to be used as part of a connection with the (elevated) Canarsie line at Myrtle/Wckoff.

From "Transit Truths" published by the BMT in 1924.

The Fourteenth Street-Eastern Line. Dual subway Contract No. 4, signed March 19, 1913, is still binding between the City of New York and the Company. Under this contract the City agreed to construct the 14th Street-Eastern Line. This has not been completed. We are ready, however, to operate this line whenever the City finishes the work. We have been asked whether we will consent to a change in our contract so that the eastern portion may be constructed as a subway. As the public demand for this change evidently expresses the public need we will agree to this change in the contract provided our present legal rights and claims are adequately preserved and the subway is constructed under plans which will connect it with our existing structures at East New York, but we wish to point out to the public that this Company expended years ago in anticipation of the early completion of this line approximately $500,000 third-tracking the Myrtle Avenue "L," which includes an express station at Wyckoff Avenue to connect with the 14th Street-Eastern Line. This expenditure will be wasted unless facilities are provided for the convenient transfer of passengers between the 14th Street Line and the Myrtle Avenue Line at this point. Therefore it should be understood in case the contract is modified so as to provide for substitution of subway for elevated construction, that the City will provide suitable and adequate facilities for transfer of passengers between the subway and elevated lines at Myrtle and Wyckoff Avenues, in order that the third track and station facilities already provided by the Company may be utilized.

(1149805)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 9 14:33:51 2012, in response to Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by seabeachexpress on Mon Apr 9 13:11:50 2012.

It was put there in anticipation of the Canarsie line being built on an el from Morgan Ave through the area there to Wilson. Early form NIMBY's got them to put it as subway east of Montrose instead, the line we know today.

(1149967)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by jasonnyc on Tue Apr 10 03:56:28 2012, in response to Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by seabeachexpress on Mon Apr 9 13:11:50 2012.

It was covered over during the 2000s conversion of the Myrtle Wyckoff complex into the Ridgewood Intermodal terminal.

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases/?en=070419-NYCT44

(1149973)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 07:10:28 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by jasonnyc on Tue Apr 10 03:56:28 2012.

But that was a replacement for the original covering, which was a replacement for old wooden crossovers at either end of the station. The mid 2000 renovation of Wyckoff just replaced the older concrete crossover and made it somewhat bigger, and replaced the older wooden ones at either end too, which were unused for decades because the wood was rotten. The one at the South End was where the old south end mezzanine was (which was removed in the early 90's). The north end wooden one was where the old removed north end mezzanine once was. The old concrete one in the middle was where the original L train transfer stairways were (also now removed), which were two stairways, one leading up to either original platform, with the concrete slab in the middle to allow crossing over at platform level over the "express" track. The old north end wooden crossover, as well as the middle concrete one was removed in the 2000's renovation, as well as the old L transfer stairways removed and replaced with the center one there today.


(1149974)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by subfan on Tue Apr 10 08:05:42 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Apr 9 14:11:44 2012.

That sounds more like it was planned to allow more capacity that was anticipated once the 14th Street line was completed, not a physical track juncture. Otherwise, the line at the end, "in order that the third track and station facilities already provided by the Company may be utilized", does not make sense - adequate facilities for transfer of passengers would not render a modification intended for a track juncture useful.

subfan

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 08:27:11 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by subfan on Tue Apr 10 08:05:42 2012.

The original plan was for the Canarsie line to be on an el over Wyckoff Ave, and there would have been some sort of track interchange here, probably similar to Myrtle-Broadway's connection was between the Myrtle and Bway lines. The third track would have seen more use then (for example perhaps a Canarsie train headed express to the Williamsburg Bridge and Downtown, and so forth. Once underground, that need dissipated, and the most they could hope for was a transfer there between the two lines, but the express track became less and less important then. It was really designed for trains to interchange there too, not just passengers.

(1150011)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by subfan on Tue Apr 10 13:10:14 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 08:27:11 2012.

Agree that it makes sense that there would have been some form of track interchange, but the language still seems to imply that the main purpose was increased passenger throughput without necessarily having trains switch from one line to another. It could very well have been something like the current Broadway/East NY interchange between the J and L lines - there for when needed, but not used in regular service.

As an aside - was the regular service patern at Myrtle/Broadway always to have some upper Myrtle trains switch to Broadway, or was there a time where all upper Myrtle trains went all the way to Jay/Sands St./Park Row?

subfan

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 10 13:27:48 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 08:27:11 2012.

Still, putting switches south of Wyckoff would have allowed the middle track at Wyckoff to be used as a rush hour turning point for el trains instead of congesting Metropolitan Ave. Not sure why that was never done. Spite?

(1150028)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 13:38:50 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by subfan on Tue Apr 10 13:10:14 2012.

The line originally did not have a connection between Broadway and Myrtle lines there. That was put in during dual contracts also, in 1915.

(1150029)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 13:40:52 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 10 13:27:48 2012.

Is it actually confirmed that there were no switches there? I have never seen photographic or even graphical evidence of that. I have seen photos of the south side of the station with track still there, and no switches there, but none on the north end.

(1150033)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 10 13:52:07 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 13:40:52 2012.

South of Wyckoff, yeah:



Location: Wyckoff Avenue
Car: Brooklyn Union Elevated
Collection of: George Conrad Collection
Date: 8/30/1948
Notes: View south from Wyckoff/Myrtle - note center track still installed.

(1150130)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Apr 10 19:51:02 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Apr 9 14:11:44 2012.

$500,000 seems like a lot of money for those days for a project such as that-- maybe even something of an accountant's exaggeration.

(1150132)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Apr 10 20:01:21 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 9 13:43:24 2012.

The perfect picture for the next person who brings up 76th Street or the Queens Blvd/Rockaway connection!

(1150134)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Apr 10 20:06:06 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Apr 9 14:11:44 2012.

Sorta begs the question- why didn't they third track the 14th St- Eastern subway, between Wyckoff and Bedford?

(1150167)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 07:44:08 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Apr 10 20:06:06 2012.

Because the original Canarsie line was only two tracks between Bedford and Montrose, the original temporary end. At that point it was supposed to come out of the ground and run as an el to Broadway Junction over Wyckoff Ave.
The route the Canarsie line takes goes under some very narrow streets.

(1150168)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 11 07:50:49 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 10 07:10:28 2012.

I seem to remember the rotten wood corssovers still in place in 2006...I think the modern transfer structure was opened in 2008...

(1150177)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 08:51:12 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 11 07:50:49 2012.

Yes. The rotten wood crossovers remained till the end. They were at either end, in front of the stairways that led to the original north and south mezzanines, both of which were removed in the 1990's.

(1150220)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:30:44 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 10 13:52:07 2012.

How many times do the Eastern Division Direction Police have to remind people on this board that leaving Metropolitan Av towards Manhattan is now NORTHBOUND just like it correctly was prior to through routing of Eastern Division services into the Southern Division. Prior to the through routing of the QJ and later the M, the rule was that trains passing through Brooklyn enroute to Manhattan regardless of point of origin are NORTHBOUND. That was the case with all Eastern Division routes: Jamaica, Canarsie, Myrtle and Fulton prior to 1956 and is in fact still the case with A trains using the old Fulton St El between Lefferts and Hudson St.

(1150221)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:32:58 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 9 13:43:24 2012.

If the transit historians on this forum did their research accurately it wouldn't be necessary for the Eastern Division Direction Police to have to constantly remind them!!!

(1150256)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Apr 11 18:05:38 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 07:44:08 2012.

So, was the grand plan to have a 3rd track elevated express service between Essex to B'way/Myrtle; B'way-Myrtle to Wyckoff/Myrtle; and Wyckoff/Myrtle to B'way Junction? And the 14th St line would be the local, between Wyckoff/myrtle and B'way Jct? That's what it appears to be, had it been built as such!

(1150257)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 18:18:58 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:30:44 2012.

Good god, not this crap again.

We are talking actual directional, not operation directional.

(1150258)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 18:19:53 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:32:58 2012.

We all know what the operational direction is. We are talking station infrastructure, and actual direction.

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 18:45:28 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 18:18:58 2012.

As a former RTO operating manager operating direction is more universal as a point of reference. I cited the A Line lvg Lefferts as an example and I'm Sure noone on this forum would ever talk about Liberty Junction being south of Lefferts even though physically that is where it is.

(1150261)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 18:46:01 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 18:19:53 2012.

See my other post on this subject.

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 19:11:09 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 18:45:28 2012.

NO, they would say it's west of Lefferts....
Just like on the Jamaica El they would say Woodhaven Blvd is west of Jamaica Center.

(1150283)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by monorail on Wed Apr 11 20:43:54 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:30:44 2012.

'How many times'


2,000,000,000,000 or somewhere there about....

(1150284)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by monorail on Wed Apr 11 20:44:47 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:32:58 2012.

'Eastern Division Direction Police'


more pigs to worry about....

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 20:48:14 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by monorail on Wed Apr 11 20:43:54 2012.

The train may be going Southbound when it travels north to Metropolitan Ave, but the North end of the "Forest Ave" station is the mezzanine that is in use, while the SOUTH mezzanine is removed, and so forth....

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by monorail on Wed Apr 11 20:50:08 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 20:48:14 2012.

sounds good to me!

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 11 21:12:27 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 9 13:34:33 2012.

I propose that all references to directions on this board be prefaced with either "operational" or "due" so as to eliminate confusion. We can still beat up on those who neglect to do so, so that should make everyone happy.

(1150300)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 21:25:10 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 11 21:12:27 2012.

How come he doesn't complain when someone says something is "West" of Broadway Junction on the Broadway El? It's no different than saying Fresh Pond Rd is the next station north of Forest Ave.
Who cares what the operational direction there.

(1150302)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by monorail on Wed Apr 11 21:35:51 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 11 21:12:27 2012.

'We can still beat up on those who neglect to do so, so that should make everyone happy.'

may not make me happy....

(1150759)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by SLRT on Sat Apr 14 12:27:03 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 19:11:09 2012.

Look at the trouble the City caused by changing the BMT directional system after Unification.

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 12:32:45 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 18:18:58 2012.

The BMT has been dead for 72 years. Until 2010, a Manhattan-bound M train was southbound. Only now does the old BMT practice actually match the physical direction the service runs.

(1150764)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 12:35:24 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Apr 10 20:06:06 2012.

Cost. The BRT spent far more on the 14th St line than they expected by having to build a subway between Montrose and Bushwick/Aberdeen.

At least the BRT was solvent enough to absorb the cost. The IRT was originally planning on having the Nostrand Ave line extend southward as an el, but when that was blocked, nothing was built.

(1150821)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 14 16:04:39 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 12:32:45 2012.

OK, Manhattan bound from where ?

(1150824)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 16:13:10 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 14 16:04:39 2012.

Manhattan bound M from Metro. In BMT times, it would be a northbound train, even moving south.

(1150828)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Apr 14 16:43:46 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 08:51:12 2012.

Yep...work had me in the neighborhhod in 2006, 2008, and again in 2011...so yeah, I've seen how this station came along. I remember the rotten wood at both ends, just as yuou said, in '06.

(1150829)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Apr 14 16:48:10 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:30:44 2012.

I can kind of see the logic of this for A trains leaving Lefferts, as they physically travel Southwest, THEN Northwest on their way to Manhattan. Actually, now that I think about it, an Orange M leaving Metropolitan is sensibly described as Northbound.

As for the defunct Brown M and the J/Z, it sitll makes sense to me to call a departure from Metropolitan or Jamaica Center as southbound.

(1150836)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 14 17:12:00 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 16:13:10 2012.

I think that started with the QJ, then the "QM", now it's the "VM"

(1150852)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 18:52:03 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 12:32:45 2012.

Exactly.

(1150860)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 14 19:17:43 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by SLRT on Sat Apr 14 12:27:03 2012.

I can't speak for "BMTLines", but certainly more trouble than that ensued.

(1150874)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 19:52:34 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Apr 14 16:48:10 2012.

Not to mention that NOBODY outside of transit operators or railfans care what the actual operational direction of the trains are, they only care which way they are going. In manhattan they will call the downtown M train Southbound, and if on the Myrtle El they will call the Manhattan bound train southbound. No one cares what the operational direction is.

(1150875)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 19:55:04 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 12:35:24 2012.

Not to mention the total WASTE of money the BRT wound up spending on the Fulton El rebuild, only to have it torn down only 25 years later. Imagine they had spent that money on expanding service instead...but they didn't know the city would one day duplicate the service.
That was a significant part of perfectly good 3 track el that was demolished between Franklin Ave and Atlantic Ave...

(1150877)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 19:57:32 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Apr 14 16:43:46 2012.

I remember in the 1980's and early 90's when they were doing a lot of trackwork on the M line, and they would often run one track shuttles between Metro and WYckoff and then between Wyckoff and Myrtle-Bway with the two sections connecting at Wyckoff. I remember jumping over the rail and across the rotting wood crossover at the south end of the station once with a friend so we didn't have to walk all the way to the other end to use the actual crossover. I remember thinking it was like taking our lives in our hands....

(1150925)

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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle

Posted by monorail on Sun Apr 15 01:28:15 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 14 17:12:00 2012.

'then the "QM", now it's the "VM" '

about once a day there is a 'BM'.....

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