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| (1101203) | |
Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 01:54:08 2011 Was the current Dyre Avenue Line ever an IND line? |
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| (1101206) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Sep 12 01:59:26 2011, in response to Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 01:54:08 2011. No! It was part of the NY Westchester and Boston RR. The old structure at E180th St was their terminal building IIRC |
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| (1101207) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:02:04 2011, in response to Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 01:54:08 2011. When the city bought it, crews and operations were part of the IND originally ... hope that helps. |
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| (1101208) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 02:02:25 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Train Dude on Mon Sep 12 01:59:26 2011. Are you 100% positive? |
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| (1101209) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:07:31 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 02:02:25 2011. The New York, Westchester and Back terminated at 132nd Street and Willis Avenue where a connection to the 2nd and 3rd Avenue els was made, roughly 4-1/2 miles south of East 180th. Stops below East 180 were Westchester Avenue, Hunt's Point, Casenova, Port Morris and the terminal at the Harlem River on the New Haven line up until 1930.The facility at East 180th was the railroad's offices. |
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| (1101210) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 02:09:59 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:07:31 2011. Thank you for this information. But was the Dyre Avenue Line ever an "official" IND line according to the Board of Transportation? |
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| (1101211) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 02:10:41 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:07:31 2011. Please e-mail me. |
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| (1101212) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:16:57 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 02:09:59 2011. When the city acquired it in 1939, the plan was to connect it to the IRT. However, when the city began operation of IRT equipment as shuttles, it was staffed and crewed and considered part of the IND. I don't know when IND staffing was turned over to the IRT, I'd have to look that up. But it WAS officially IND for a portion of time after it was acquired. If RandyO shows up or Uncle Joe of modeling fame, they can confirm this for you. |
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| (1101213) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Sep 12 02:38:21 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:02:04 2011. Curiously...if it was run by the IND, and used IND crews, why did they install IRT-style home signals? Or did they replace the home signals only after the Dyre Line was officially connected to the White Plains Road mainline, and taken over by the remnants of the IRT?Upon initial takeover by the IND, where was there a tower? |
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| (1101214) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:59:22 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Sep 12 02:38:21 2011. Heh. I had been planning to get to bed by now, but went looking for info for Joe. The original signals installed by the city came from the BMT Fulton line. That was a surprise. When the city opened the shuttle in 1941, it was full IND Division with IND crews until it was connected to WPR in 1957. I would have to imagine that any IRT signaling went in then. Folks can look this up if interested, but how about that? :) |
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| (1101222) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 06:43:55 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:59:22 2011. I recall it was IND if a number of ways, but that wasn't supposed to stay that way, for a number of reasons. It was run as an isolated operation. To take the line, you had to get off at E180 on the WPR and walk over to the ex-NYW&B station. |
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| (1101223) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 06:48:59 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:16:57 2011. I think we're talking about an administrative question also. The divisions remained separate for staffing and other purposes for quite a while. The signals were salvaged from the street el and IRT elevated equipment was used for service. Definitely a camel.When the Rockaway Line opened it was IND in every obvious way, but it was staffed by a fixed proportion of operating personnel from each division. |
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| (1101226) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 12 07:46:18 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 06:48:59 2011. The Rockaway line initially operated as a separate division. Trains changed crews at Euclid Ave. |
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| (1101227) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 12 07:47:22 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:59:22 2011. Can you imagine running R-1/9s along that line?:) |
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| (1101232) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Sep 12 07:52:09 2011, in response to Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 01:54:08 2011. Yes. While it never physically connected to the IND, it was originally an IND line, and operated as such. The original intent was for the 2nd Ave subway to take over the White Plains line and the Dyre line at East 180th St (as well as Pelham), but since the subway was never built, that didn't happen. |
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| (1101239) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by andy on Mon Sep 12 08:50:51 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:16:57 2011. It did not become officially an IRT line till 1957, when the physical connection to the WP Road Line was completed north of E 180th Street, allowing through service to/from the 7th Ave. IRT. In 1965 the Dyre became a Lexington Ave. branch, which it remains to this day. |
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| (1101247) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Sep 12 09:38:03 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by andy on Mon Sep 12 08:50:51 2011. It did not become officially an IRT line till 1957There may be some questions to when and to whom it was an IND line. The route information on the BOT's 1948 map shows Dyre Ave as being part of the IRT. 
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| (1101254) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 10:17:25 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Sep 12 07:52:09 2011. It never was an IND to begin with. The portion of the Dyre Ave line was constructed by a private operator; NY, Westchester and Boston Railway - - with service from Port Morris terminal, through East 180th Street (the part on the right side as you leave East Tremont, seeing the abanonded ROW cutoff.) then onto either New Rochelle or White Plains.The approximate location of the White Plains terminal is now the Westchester Mall. |
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| (1101256) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Sep 12 10:26:57 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 10:17:25 2011. I know the history of the Dyre line, and who built it, but it absolutely WAS run as an IND line when the subway first took it over. |
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| (1101260) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Sep 12 10:43:05 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Sep 12 02:38:21 2011. It was an IND line, and it was supposed to be connected to the Second Avenue Subway. The Pelham Bay Line was supposed to be part of the Second Avenue Subway too.Plans Change. EOS |
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| (1101263) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 11:01:59 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 10:17:25 2011. Sorry, but you are 100% WRONG. Where did you research this wrong answer? In The Turtle's library? According to the official document in my hands, titled "Board of Transportation of The City of New York, Report Including Analysis of Operations of the New York City Transit System for Five Years Ended June 30, 1945", Chapter 11, Pages 10/11, Rapid Transit Lines, IND Division: "The IND Division comprises eight major routes as follows: Eighth Avenue Line, Bronx Concourse Line, Queens Boulevard Line, Brooklyn Crosstown Line, Sixth Avenue Line, Houston-Essex Street Line, Prospect Park-Coney Island Line and Dyre Avenue-East 174th Street Line (from Dyre Avenue and East 233rd Street, The Bronx, to East 180th Street and White Plains Road, connecting with White Plains Road Line of the IRT Division)."So we have established that it was an IND Line at least until the date of this publication, and possibly/probably for sometime thereafter. |
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| (1101265) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Sep 12 11:11:11 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Sep 12 09:38:03 2011. It did not become officially an IRT line till 1957There may be some questions to when and to whom it was an IND line. The route information on the BOT's 1948 map shows Dyre Ave as being part of the IRT. I believe that the 1957 date refers to the start of thru-operation during the daytime hours, from about 6AM to 8 PM. Shuttle service continued to run at other time. 1957 may also have been the date when shuttle trains ceased to use the old NYW & B station and switched over to the East 180 Street Station. I believe that the monies for the takeover and upgrading of the line came from appropriations that were never used for the proposed extension of the Grand Concourse Line across Gun Hill Road. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1101266) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Sep 12 11:24:22 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Sep 12 10:43:05 2011. LOL and shit happens! Deal.your pal, Fred |
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| (1101267) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Sep 12 11:38:44 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:59:22 2011. And of course, the line continues to use B Division-style track numbering to this day. |
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| (1101268) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 11:41:57 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 11:01:59 2011. Haha, I accept that I was wrong but I also took your post as friendly sarcasm. :-) |
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| (1101269) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 11:47:02 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 11:41:57 2011. As you wish...... Read deeper. |
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| (1101272) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by andy on Mon Sep 12 12:11:33 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Sep 12 09:38:03 2011. For purposes of public information, the Dyre Ave. Line was always advertised as an IRT line, and of course was reconstructed to IRT clearances since its original rolling stock was a group of ex-IRT 9th Ave. El cars. But since there was no physical connection to the IRT White Plains Line till 1957, the line was crewed and dispatched separately and was officially considered an IND line.Once the connection opened in 1957 the Dyre branch of course was officially an IRT line. I am very familiar with the 1948 map and it shows Dyre Ave. as IRT because to show an IND (red line) route would just confuse the public. |
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| (1101273) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 12 12:15:57 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by andy on Mon Sep 12 12:11:33 2011. That 1948 map makes no mention whatsoever of the Culver line. |
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| (1101275) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 12:19:40 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 11:47:02 2011. LOL. |
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| (1101281) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 13:18:17 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Sep 12 11:38:44 2011. No luck on finding out what they did for tower ... I'd bet they used one of those portables at each end removed from service elsewhere. Then again, what would they really need for tower? :) |
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| (1101282) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 13:19:48 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 06:43:55 2011. From what I read last night, the plan was to give it to the IRT unless somehow the IND made it there first. Since it was isolated from the rest of the system though, guess it didn't matter who it belonged to as long as somebody showed up to run the shuttle each shift. :) |
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| (1101283) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 13:20:44 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 12 07:47:22 2011. I imagine they'd do just fine if they could get them there. |
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| (1101290) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 13:52:50 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 12 07:46:18 2011. The reason for that was that when the Fulton St el shut down, it was intended to allot a certain number of runs to displaced BMT crews. When the IRT personnel heard about this, they packed the TWU meetings and since the IRT had the largest proportion of operating personnel, a volte was taken that runs on the Rockaway Division be allotted according to the number of crews on the 3 respective divisions. Since the IRT had the greatest number, IRTt crews were alloted the most Rockaway runs, the BMT the second and the iND last which pretty much negated the TA's original intent. This situation lasted until the Chrystie mergers of 1967 when the BMT and IND became one B Division and the IRT then got locked out. Tower operators were also included in the mix and that allotment of Tw/Os among the 3 divisions lasted until sometime after it ceased for M/M and C/Rs. Supervision on the other hand was strictly IND. |
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| (1101291) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 14:05:02 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 13:52:50 2011. Wasn't the rock C division (misc) up until then? |
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| (1101294) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 14:15:44 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Sep 12 10:17:25 2011. Until it was connected to the IRT at Unionport in the early 50's, the Dyre Ave line was IND on paper. IND crews, IND rules. |
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| (1101295) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 14:23:29 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Sep 12 11:11:11 2011. I think there's confusion between what the Dyre Ave. line was in practice (IRT) and in administration (IND). It was physically IRT, but was staffed and ruled as IND. This was due to the never instituted intention to connect the entire NYW&B ROW to the never built SAS. The connection to the IRT was built when that plan was dropped.The Port Jervis line is very similar. It's Metro North by label, NJT in operation. |
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| (1101296) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Sep 12 14:23:38 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 02:59:22 2011. From my history of the IND on nycsubway.org:... funding was appropriated for extension of the Bronx Concourse Line beyond its current 205th Street terminal. However, Bronx residents favored rehabilitation of the New York, Westchester and Boston line from the city limits at Dyre Ave, abandoned since December 31st, 1937. As a result, these funds were diverted to rehabilitation of the NYW&B, connecting it to the White Plains Road line as a shuttle service. Using signals from the abandoned Fulton Street El, the Dyre Ave shuttle began service on May 15th, 1941. While it used IRT equipment, it was run as an IND Division line and staffed by IND crewmen. So the answer to Joe's question is YES. --Mark |
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| (1101298) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Sep 12 14:27:08 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Sep 12 11:01:59 2011. Joe, I also had the answer here..... funding was appropriated for extension of the Bronx Concourse Line beyond its current 205th Street terminal. However, Bronx residents favored rehabilitation of the New York, Westchester and Boston line from the city limits at Dyre Ave, abandoned since December 31st, 1937. As a result, these funds were diverted to rehabilitation of the NYW&B, connecting it to the White Plains Road line as a shuttle service. Using signals from the abandoned Fulton Street El, the Dyre Ave shuttle began service on May 15th, 1941. While it used IRT equipment, it was run as an IND Division line and staffed by IND crewmen. --Mark |
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Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 14:30:23 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Sep 12 14:23:38 2011. That's where I remembered it from ... thanks for that! A few years ago, the New York, Westchester and Back provided quite a few weeks of interesting stuff here. :) |
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| (1101301) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Sep 12 14:32:38 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 14:23:29 2011. Aren't there MNRR WOH crews, though? |
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| (1101307) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 14:41:08 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Sep 12 14:32:38 2011. Not that I am aware of. It's operated by NJT. The imfrastructure on the PJ line are owned and maintained by the MTA and the MTA owns equipment to provide the service. The trains are staffed by NJT employees, though.The PVL is different. NJT owns everything but the stations themselves. |
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| (1101308) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 14:41:20 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Sep 12 14:32:38 2011. Not that I am aware of. It's operated by NJT. The infrastructure on the PJ line is owned and maintained by the MTA and the MTA owns equipment to provide the service. The trains are staffed by NJT employees, though.The PVL is different. NJT owns everything but the stations themselves. |
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| (1101312) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 14:46:41 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 13:52:50 2011. IIRC, the divide was: 17 jobs to the IRT, 14 the BMT, 10 or 12 to the IND. |
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| (1101314) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 15:03:12 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 14:46:41 2011. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but it does indicate that the IRT had the most jobs there and the IND the least. |
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| (1101315) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 15:05:07 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 12 14:05:02 2011. There was no "C" division at the time. There were 3 Divisions: IRT, BMT, and IND with the Rockaway Division administered by the IND and existing for crew assignment purposes only. |
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| (1101317) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 15:11:25 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 14:15:44 2011. The actual reason for that was that the law providing for city takeover of the BMT and IRT also mandated that all new rapid transit lines be part of the IND Division and even though the Dyre Line was not "new" in terms of physical construction, it was considered a "new" line as far as the B of T was concerned and had to be treated as such. The possibility of its being connected to the SAS probably crossed the minds of the B of T management also and I'm sure it was given due consideration. |
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| (1101318) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 15:11:37 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 14:46:41 2011. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but it does indicate that the IRT had the most jobs there and the IND the least. |
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| (1101323) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Joe on Mon Sep 12 15:34:33 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 15:05:07 2011. Regarding the "BOT" map service guide of 1948 as reproduced in Mr. Baumann's post of 9:38 today:I may be wrong, but my recollection of the maps posted at the time of the introduction of many transfer points (fare increase of July 1, 1948), the Board of Transportation did not produce its own map but used an updated version of the Hagstrom map, on which the three divisions were given equal prominence. Until that time, maps posted in trains usually showed only the train's division (IRT, BMT, or IND) or, if they showed the other divisions they showed the routes less completely with lighter lines. In 1948, the Board paid Hagstrom a bundle for laminated maps to be hung at each station, maps which used the Hagstrom color scheme for the divisions, together with narrow lines for elevated routes. I do not recall where I saw the chart Mr. Baumann posted, but I did see it somewhere at the time, whether in stations, inside cars, or as a hand-out map that was financed by a outside advertiser (as New York Telephone, for example). ---- Not only did the Hagstrom maps carry their copyright notice, but they also could be spotted for unique marks (a guard against unauthorized reproduction), such as a red tail at the end of some IND routes, suggesting extensions in the future. About the same time, one 42nd Street bank, perhaps the Union Bank for Savings, published a non-Hagstrom map. ---- If memory is correct, smaller versions of the Hagstrom map first appeared in new subway cars, either on the Flushing line or on the A. In each case, I believe Hagstrom assigned Dyre Avenue IRT blue, not IND red, but that was Hagstrom's choice. ---- Another memory that proves nothing in this discussion: The entrance signs at the Dyre Avenue stations were IND enamel: white letters on green background. And the cars were Interborough gate cars! ---- Thanks to those who have contributed to this discussion. Joe McMahon |
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| (1101330) | |
Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 16:07:49 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 12 15:11:25 2011. Interesting. So that means the line through Grand St was IND, not BMT? I know the distinction became irrelevant when it opened, I'm just curious as to how it would have been labeled before the MTA was created and the 3 divisions were still separate. |
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Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 12 16:10:17 2011, in response to Re: Question - Dyre Avenue Line, posted by SLRT on Mon Sep 12 14:46:41 2011. Anyone know when they stopped doing crew changes at Euclid? |
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